Why Kill/Disable Major Characters? - Avengers: Endgame (2019) Discussion

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Because real people die.

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[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

I covered that by saying it's depressing to kill fictional characters who are metaphors for unbeatable people.

These are not real people and the stories aren't remotely real. In addition, these characters are "brands" like Iron Man is a brand like a breakfast cereal is a brand. So, why destroy a brand?

The only thing I can think of is to plan for reboots of the characters.

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[–] FilmBuff (6691) 5 years ago

I don't think it has anything to do with reboots. It's because the actors have signed contracts for a certain amount of films, and those contracts are up, and the success they've had in their MCU roles has made them too expensive to hire again. Not only that, they've aged 10 years and can't continue to play the parts convincingly. More than anything else, however, is that unlike comic books, which all come out monthly, it takes a year or two to take a film from the initial idea to opening night. So sure, since Marvel needs to put out 40 stories a month, they can't kill a character. If Iron Man dies for good, then they have to stop publishing Iron Man. Conversely, making even one film for each Marvel character would give 3 films a year for the next 20 years, so they can kill off some and start new stories with new ones.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Because unlike the comics this involves real people who either can't or don't want to continue playing these roles forever. Pretty simple. Their only option would be to recast and I can't imagine a new actor playing Iron Man would go down well with the fans.

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[–] actionkamen (23176) 5 years ago

True. Also I don't think people want to keep watching RDJ Iron Man indefinitely. Iron Man 3 was not well recieved.

They have learned that they have to change strategies when a single superhero movie got to the third installment. Captain America's third movie became a semi-Avengers movie. Third Thor movie became, I don't know, Star Wars? But that way they relatively fare better than a straight up third movie like Iron Man 3.

So when a third movie is already a challenge, I don't think audience would recieve a fourth or fifth movies with open arms. Case in point: Terminator, Alien, Batman, etc.

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[–] wickerman1271 (940) 5 years ago

Why not ? James Bond had 26 movies and was played by 7 different actors and nobody complained , so i don't see a problem recasting and making another 20+ movies

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[–] Frogarama (12942) 5 years ago

Yes and outrage over a black Bond is even more insane.

Anyway, the Bond franchise is an exception, not a rule. The first time Bond was recast was a gamble.

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[–] wickerman1271 (940) 5 years ago

And they won the gamble since Roger Moore was amazing as James Bond , i don't see why they can't hire another actor who would be as good as RDJ in the role , i personally won't watch an Avengers movie without Iron Man , Cap and Thor in it

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[–] actionkamen (23176) 5 years ago

Disney simply doesn't gamble.

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[–] wickerman1271 (940) 5 years ago

They'll probably going to loose a lot of money then

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[–] ultravioletx (10216) 5 years ago

Nah. Disney's gamble was on Iron Man. Not RDJ. Though it wasn't Disney back then. Keep in mind this is all Feige. If Feige can turn a hero like Iron Man into a household name then he can do it with another character. Thats where Feige is putting Disney's chips.

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[–] EvilPinata (1186) 5 years ago

Bond also doesn't have the continuity that the MCU has though. They've done Casino Royale like three times.

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[–] FilmBuff (6691) 5 years ago

They've only done it once.

In the '60s there was a spoof of Casino Royale with Woody Allen as Jimmy Bond, but as far as the actual, "official," Bond franchise we've only had one Casino Royale.

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[–] GreenGoblinsOck8 (7401) 5 years ago

I'm tired of the James Bond comparisson since none of those movies feel connected. They always ignore the previous movie and it's always been like that since Sean Connery played the role. At least that's how all the Bond movies feel to me.

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[–] whynotwriteme (7122) 5 years ago

It was done in order to replace them with actors who are more gender and racially Correct. Pepper or Tony's daughter will become Iron Woman soon. Valkyrie is more or less the new Thor as old Thor has become "The Dude" and of course, Falcon is the new Captain America. Maybe there will be an Asian or Latina actress in the Black Widow role, or perhaps a gay or trans person.

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[–] wickerman1271 (940) 5 years ago

Fuck that , if they really do that in the next Avengers movie i'm done with Marvel for good , they already changed too much from the comics

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

They'll just change the comics. Remember, everything they do is canon.

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[–] ultravioletx (10216) 5 years ago

You really shouldn't be so susceptible to troll comments.

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[–] whynotwriteme (7122) 5 years ago

What did I post that could not conceivably or has not actually already happened in the MCU? Where's the troll element of my post?

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[–] GreenGoblinsOck8 (7401) 5 years ago

For some people if you don't want characters to be turned gay or to have them replaced with minorities you are a bigot. Frankly though Marvel's insistence on changing their comics to be like movies is a downside to the comics medium. But I mainly read older comics anyway. Right now I am reading late 60s s Avengers, early 70s Captain America, late 60s Hulk, late 70s Spider-Man, early 80s X-Men, Early 90s Silver Surfer, late 60s Fantastic Four, and early 60s Iron Man from these DVD ROMS I bought that Marvel released about 13 years ago. I also do it this way now because I like having all the history of the character than picking up a modern comic and having some event I've not read mentioned that is hard to even find now for an affordable price.

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[–] TheAdlerian (2092) 5 years ago

I think that's a great answer and will likely happen.

It failed in the comics and will fail big on screen.

I will not see a female/black/etc character movie like that.

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[–] Mcboogerballs (118) 5 years ago

Because..

1. Getting a main character killed apparently "RAISES the stakes" for some weird reason according to the netizens

2. Disney wouldnt be able to afford Downey Jr.'s fee for another full fledged movie

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[–] wickerman1271 (940) 5 years ago

If Disney can't afford RDJ then no other company can , so he will retire because no one will be able to hire him? What kind of stupid logic is this?

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[–] Mcboogerballs (118) 5 years ago

Uhhh... wow

You must be new to this world. Its basic economic

With every Iron Man role he portrays, the worth of that character increases and would eventually result in a proportional or even exponential increase in the worth of RDJ as Iron Man. Imagine if they replaced RDJ with some other actor as Iron Man for the Avengers movie - I m sure it would slice off 1/3rd of the audience that movie got. The demand increases while the supply (RDJ) remains the same i.e. massive increase in the cost for that supply

RDJ doing a non IronMan movie would fetch him a regular fee (higher than what he would have got pre-Iron Man, but still not astronomical like for another Iron Man movie) and he will still be able to get regular movies

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[–] wickerman1271 (940) 5 years ago

I can confirm you have no logic , without Iron Man in the next Avengers movie it would slice off 2/3 of the audience or more , an Avengers movie without Cap Iron Man Thor is not going to make 2 billions

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[–] Mcboogerballs (118) 5 years ago

[without Iron Man in the next Avengers movie it would slice off 2/3 of the audience or more , an Avengers movie without Cap Iron Man Thor is not going to make 2 billions]

Right .. thats what I said pumpkin. Hence, RDJ's worth for an Iron man role is a lot higher than it would be for a regular movie

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[–] triplea (3577) 5 years ago

I'm afraid your logic is not at all sound on this.

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[–] TMC-4 (19416) 5 years ago

https://www.quora.com/Spoiler-Avengers-Endgame-Is-Tony-Stark-still-alive/answer/Andrew-M-Klazinga

For the No part:

His Marvel contract is up
He costs an insane amount of money per film
In Endgame he physically dies
For the “Yes” part:

Nobody ever really dies in Marvel comics and in agent of shield they have a way to bring back people (provided they still have the body in a decent condition). Also it looks like Far From Home will introduce the multiverse so they could use a Tony Stark from another universe. However, I don’t think they will go these ways. I do have a theory.

What is painfully obvious from Endgame is that Tony’s daughter, Morgan Stark, is JUST like him. So she will have the same intelligence and skills as he did when she is older. They even cut a scene filmed with actress Katherine Langford as an older version of her. Now of course in a perfect world there would be no need for superheroes but because Tony dies and leaves behind a huge legacy that is going to give her the trauma to follow in his footsteps.

Now we know that the trauma from the first Avengers movie made Tony paranoid about worse things happening which lead to the creation of Ultron. We also know he built Jarvis and had time to study Vision. He also kind of solved time travel really fast in Endgame. He also knew after almost dying through a wormhole and being stabbed by Thanos that he could die and the world would be without him.

My theory is that once they are ready to grow Morgan into a hero character she will find out that her father copied his mind into an AI. He would then appear to her in the movie using the visual technology displayed in Civil War. This way he can still be involved as a mentor in future films if they want him while also staying dead in the continuity.

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[–] FilmBuff (6691) 5 years ago

In a comic book, you can create a character in 1963 and continue to draw him the same way until the end of time. You are also telling a new story each month, and gradually building a narrative. Films don't work that way. It takes several years to go from concept to completed film. More importantly, actors age. How many more times can Robert Downey, Jr. convincing play Tony Stark?

If they started today, the earliest we'd get Iron Man 4 would be 2021, and more likely 2022. Then Iron Man 5? Iron Man 20? And do fans want that? Or would it be like a James Bond thing? One cookie-cutter film after another with an ever-changing lead actor?

I think it makes more sense to continue to explore new stories of new characters. Keep in mind that Iron Man, though he's a global icon now, had zero name recognition when the original film came out. Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor were C-List Marvel heroes. But great actors, great stories, great directors, and maybe most of all great guidance from the Marvel team turned them into A-Listers that people are now sad to live without. Look at Guardians of the Galaxy. Even most of the people, myself included, who follow Marvel's comics were at best vaguely aware they existed, but they are now a hot property.

I think it makes more sense to gradually tell stories of all the myriad characters Marvel has. Maybe in decades to come they can reboot a franchise, or bring in a new actor and do a new Iron Man trilogy or something, but I have zero doubt that if Marvel can succeed with GotG, Black Panther, Ant-Man, Captain Marvel, etc., they can have equal success with, say, Moon Knight, the Micronauts, Shang-Chi, etc. Plus they now have the Fantastic Four and X-Men, which could probably be enough for another 22 film arc when combined with Spider-Man, Black Panther, Dr. Strange, and Captain Marvel sequels.

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[–] wickerman1271 (940) 5 years ago

The fuck you talking about? C-List Marvel heroes?? I've been reading Marvel comics since the 70's and Spidey , Iron Man , Cap , Hulk and Thor have always been the most popular characters , if they are c-list who is a-list then? You don't even know what you talking about

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[–] FilmBuff (6691) 5 years ago

I'm not talking about avid comic readers like you and me. I mean to the general public. When Iron Man came out, literally none of my friends had any idea who or what he was. Many weren't even aware the film was based on a comic book.

The A-List are heroes that you could have walked up to a stranger on the street in 2005 and said "do you know who so-and-so is" and they'd have said "of course I do!"

Spider-Man, the Hulk, and Wolverine were the A-List Marvel heroes
The X-Men, The Punisher, and the Fantastic Four would have probably counted as B-List
Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Daredevil, maybe a couple others were the C-Listers barely anyone knew

Beyond that we're talking Dr. Strange, Machine Man, Groot, whoever else... characters that of course you and I know, but the receptionist at your doctor's office or the checker at the grocery store had zero idea existed.

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[–] Mcboogerballs (118) 5 years ago

Quite rightly said

I had no idea who or what IronMan or Captain america or Thor were when their movies came out. I only knew of Spiderman, Batman, Superman, Hulk, Wolverine (again all from existing movies more than anything else)

MCU has been so successful because they made a major effort to pull in the regular, non-comic book reading audience.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

C-List?

In other words you think that teenybopper X-Men KRAP is the bread and butter of Marvel?

Newsflash: they ain’t.

Captain America #1 was published in 1941 and sold one million copies.

Long before X-Men existed.

Instead of “rebooting” or recasting, know when you’ve worn out your welcome instead of trying to ride the coattails of MCU whose handlers know what the hell they’re doing.

And don’t get me started on the Fantastically Bad Four and their idiotic choice to make Johnny and Sue Storm different races.

It’s decision like THAT, that are the reason MCU continues to succeed: ignoring politics and sticking to good storytelling.

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[–] FilmBuff (6691) 5 years ago

I don't think you understood my meaning.

I know that the original Marvel comics, dating back to the 1930s, included Captain America, Sub-Mariner, Human Torch, and even Vision. Ka-Zar was also an early character, I believe. What I'm saying above is that to the GENERAL PUBLIC, before the MCU films, Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, Dr. Strange, Guardians of the Galaxy... almost the entire MCU... were unknowns. The X-Men, love them or hate them, were the most well-known Marvel property outside of Spider-Man and the Hulk, until 2008 and the Iron Man movie.

I agree that all 3 Fantastic Four films have been poorly made, but that's not the point I was trying to make.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Unknowns?

I don’t know how old you are...but Captain America and Hulk were BOTH on NETWORK television with Reb Brown and Lou Ferrigno in the roles in the late ‘70s.

The fact that you don’t know that negates your credibility.

I watched them all, including the short-lived abominable Spider-Man TV show with Nicholas Hammond.

That’s THREE characters you call “unknowns”.

Care to claim the X-Men were a known TV commodity in 1979?

The Spider-Man cartoon of the 70s was VERY popular, I saw every episode.

As well as every episode of the cheaply produced cartoons of Thor, Hercules, Iron Man, Namor(Sub-Mariner) and Captain America.

I can still recall every THEME SONG of each hero we sang together with the boys at school.

UNKNOWNS? Pffft...

Here’s a taste of 60s-70s childhood for ya:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cVU4HURKEXs

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[–] FilmBuff (6691) 5 years ago

Why are you so angry and rude? We're having a discussion about comic books, so there's no need for rage. And again-- read what I wrote. You're insulting me based on things I did not write.

I get that you and I are lifetime comic book fans, and we know those characters, but we're a significant minority. And I'm not talking about 1979, I'm talking about the time just before the MCU launched. I made it clear that most people did already know Spider-Man and the Hulk, and that by 2005, the X-Men had become mainstream popular.

My ENTIRE POINT is that in 2005, if you asked random, typical, American movie-goers, "who's Iron Man?" or "Do you prefer Hank Pym or Scott Lang as Ant-Man" you'd have received blank stares from most everyone. Most average Americans had never heard of any of the MCU characters other than Spider-Man and the Hulk.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

By all means report my post if you find it rude.

I see nothing rude about it.

Many of us who flocked to the theatres to watch Iron-Man didn’t go out of “curiosity”....WE KNEW the character.

And yes...CAPTAIN AMERICA as well.

To call them C-List is insulting because you’re basing that assessment on the waning days of X-Men in that same time period.

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[–] ShanayaKapoor19 (1) 5 years ago

The only logical reason behind this is that they needed to create some drama and suspense to build up the hype for the upcoming movies. Also, it turns out all the superheroes which were erased by Thanos didn’t actually die. The came back to existence with the help of the soul stone.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

And they needed a more compelling story than the abysmal “Death of Captain America” in the official comics. This story arc was far superior with a good emotional impact for all who’ve been following for a decade.

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[–] NorrinRad (5019) 5 years ago

As Thor said "All Words are Made Up" and so too "All Stories are Made Up". No story is supposed to have a logical reason that is in some way part and parcel connected to some locked down universal machinations and governance.

Audiences really need to stop focusing on contracts, so-called manufactured drama, so-called hype, etc.

Every story, myth, legend, tale is made up. These are not documentaries or biographies and even the original source material is a made up story that doesn't have to be strictly adhered to.

These films establish rules, establish characters, maintain some continuity, follow some in-story logic and are brought to some type of point based on storytellers.

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

And the “point” here was ultimately: “Get a life”.

Stark to Rogers...

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[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

[deleted]

[–] EvilPinata (1186) 5 years ago

Because not all the actors want to continue playing these characters indefinitely. They could always be brought back at some point if the actors wanted to return due to time travel. I'd imagine most fans would rather have a well rounded story for these characters than having them recast every time an actor no longer wants to play them. Is recasting them actually better than retiring them? Not only that, but even in the comics the Avengers lineup is constantly changing. It's upsetting we won't see some of these characters again, but I've already started growing attatched to some of the newer ones to be honest.

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[–] movienchill31 (222) 5 years ago

As others have stated, comics are different from films. Films feature REAL people. And REAL people age or either no longer want to play the same character forever. Honestly, I'm thinking this was the final Avenger movie for right now. Can't really see them doing another without Cap and IM. Sure they can always recast the roles just like they've been doing with Spiderman but I don't think a recast Cap or IM will go over well with the fans.

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[–] ATG6 (3000) 5 years ago

Because actors want to move on. And they have like 50 backup heroes waiting in the wings.

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