MovieChat Forums > Captain Marvel (2019) Discussion > If the alt-righters and MRAs hadn't badm...

If the alt-righters and MRAs hadn't badmouthed/trolled this movie...


...the critics and columnists wouldn't feel as compelled to defend this film and give it positive reviews. It would still get generally good notices, but they'd be less zealous and less hyped than they are at present, because critics wouldn't feel so compelled to make a point against the regressive right.

You right-wing assholes are your own worst enemies.

Then again, I think you want a cultural war. You thrive on this negative bullshit.

You're basically cultural terrorists looking to incite and provoke the other side.

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That's as much as recognizing that critics and media are lying on purpose, giving positive reviews that they shouldn't give otherwise.

That attitude fits the definition of 'Fake News'.

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I don't think the critics are consciously lying. I do think it's possible that some are being a tad more effusive than they might otherwise be, although I think much of that is sub-conscious. I think some critics are convincing themselves to like the film more than they might otherwise have done simply in order to be on the right side.

I guess my observations will be controversial to a lot of people on all sides of the political spectrum, but I do think many individuals tend to be fundamentally dishonest, to themselves more than anyone else.

I know I do it. I've probably done it with respect to people like Michael Jackson, and other controversial celebrities who I admire(d).

It's called cognitive dissonance. We convince ourselves that a film like Captain Marvel is better or worse than it actually is in order to adhere to our view of the world. See also The Last Jedi, Ghostbusters 2016, and Black Panther.

Personally, I like to think I'm above this shit when it comes to new films (it's harder when it comes to older films I already have developed a strong attachment to). I don't go into films like the ones listed above with any preconceptions. I happen to like Black Panther, but feel more ambivalent towards The Last Jedi and Ghostbusters 2016 in particular. If I let my politics guide me, I'd probably feel compelled to give all three of them the thumbs up. But I like to be as 'objective' as possible when it comes to film, or at least respond to film on a visceral rather than political level (if a film moves me, I don't give a shit what its political perspective is).

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Ok, you have a good point there.

With regard to cognitive dissonance, I have discovered that the best way to beat it is to be aware that you can't beat it. Yeap, I know, it sounds contradictory.

I use as a symptom of possible cognitive dissonance when a good number of people whose opinions you respect in other areas suddenly give some common opinion you heavily disagree. If watching or reading them hurts, that's a sure symptom. Of course, that doesn't mean you're wrong. You could be right. It simply means that you don't have the capacity of thinking about that issue in a logical way. That case, the best option is to avoid that subject and to stay as neutral as possible.

For example, I heavily dislike the political message in Black Panther, specially the narrative that without white colonies, Africa would have developed in a similar way to Europe, which is complete bullshit and white-guilt propaganda. However, as a movie, in purely cinematographic popcorn terms, whether if I was to give some opinion I'd say it's bad, I suspect I'm having cognitive dissonance here: I probably want to think it's bad. So I prefer to stay neutral when it comes to its quality as a movie and restrain my opinion.

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For example, I heavily dislike the political message in Black Panther, specially the narrative that without white colonies, Africa would have developed in a similar way to Europe
I'm not entirely sure that was the message of Black Panther.

Wakanda is a fictional country with its own unique backstory that is connected to the presence of Vibranium. I guess the conceit is that if Africa had shared the fortune other parts of the world, including Europe, had in terms of resources, it might have developed differently, but that particular argument was not an indictment of white colonialism.

However, the film's most pertinent message was about how so much of the world, particularly outside of Africa, is dominated by a racial dynamic which oppresses black people (much of it directly linked to the legacy of trans-Atlantic slavery). Killmonger was trying to redress that balance, but bear in mind that he is the film's villain, and that his methods are condemned by the film's heroes, and by implication the filmmakers, for being far too radical and bloodthirsty.

As for cognitive dissonance, you're right. We all do it. The best thing is to be aware that we all experience it.

That said, I always try to separate my personal politics and belief system from my visceral response to a piece of art. If a conservative or reactionary piece of art is done well, I will say so, because for me good film, music, TV, theatre and literature is about form and style, as well as substance, and even when it comes to substance, I like to be challenged by a good argument made well, even if I end up disagreeing with it (in other words, I will prefer an intelligently made conservative argument to a glib and thoughtless liberal argument, even if my political sympathies are very much to the left).

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These are the same "critics" that gave The Last Jedi great reviews - they had no credibility to begin with. And now you are saying they yet again, are proving that they have no credibility. So what's new?

And if Marvel hadn't cast an insane feminist as Captain Marvel, and made this simply a good movie and not some kind of political statement, there would be no issues. If Brie Larson hadn't came out and made her ridiculous statements about "too many white men" and the "patriarchy", and "I don't want to hear a white man's opinion on this movie" etc, there would be no issues. White men are in fact the largest demographic for Marvel movies. So based on these statements and actions, who wants a culture war again?

Where were these issues with Wonder Woman and Alita, by the way? Simply good movies with good characters and there's no issues. How interesting.

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Many of the people who have reviewed this film, critics and paying members of the public alike, have said that the political message is relatively subtle and certainly not in-your-face. Have you seen the film yet?

Also, whatever you make of Brie Larson's interviews, you shouldn't really let them taint your feelings about the film.

I personally think some of Larson's statements were ill-worded, but she did not say there were 'too many white men', and when she referred to not needing to hear the opinion of white men on a particular movie it was in reference to A Wrinkle in Time, not this film.

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If Denzel Washington said that we need less black female rap artists because 67% of their audience are white Males.....and a black Woman can’t possibly relate to a white man so they should shut their mouths....Critics would slam Denzel, not declare him as an sjw hero.

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This is why I don't like to see them out of character.

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The flaws in your logic are that the film has no political slant at all, and no feminist or social message whatsoever. It's just a really good superhero film that fits perfectly into the Marvel canon. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, had what felt to me like a very strong feminist message.

As for Larson, if I'm correct the statement she made was in regards to A Wrinkle in Time, where she pointed out that the film was directed towards people of color, and as such she wasn't too interested in critiques of the film coming from white men. An unfortunate statement, to be sure, but one that is being taken well out of context. Her larger point was that most film critics are white men, and she wants to hear opinions from other voices. I don't recall her saying anything about Captain Marvel in that respect.

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Fits perfectly into Marvel Canon, obviously don't take any notice of the films. They have completely retcon their entire mythos they have created over the last 10 years. Captain Marvel has basically been shoehorned into this just to show the avengers can't do anything without her. Nick Fury is only now badass because of Captain marvel and her friends, did you not see the shoot out, he holds the cat while the shootout ensues. They have destroyed any chance of using the skrulls now as she took them away to find a new home, so that entire race is now gone from the MCU. Don't get me started on the Tesseract.

If you truely believe their is no feminist message in this but their is in Wonder Woman then i am sorry but your blind. At no point in Wonder Woman does she talk down or speak over her male counterparts, Captain Marvel does regularly. Wonder Woman had the usual love interest in these films like every other standalone Marvel movie, Captain Marvel doesn't it's a straight ticklist of the Bechdel test. Gender swapping Mar-Vell because how dare she get her powers from a man. The No Doubt song, jesus it is so obvious the agenda in this film. Even the marketing and advertising, the HERo logo, the director and actress stating it's an agenda/feminist movie.

The whole movie is to retroactively place an F list character into the MCU because Marvel thinks they need a competitor to Wonder Woman and it is being so badly done it's laughable. The Captain Marvel comics have been rebooted is it 7 times now (someone correct me if i'm wrong) becuase no one is interested in an obvious Mary Sue and agenda driven character. Just look at the state of Marvel comics because of the agenda and identity politics being used, they are basically going out business because of it.

The movie itself is dull, bland and basically a paint by numbers superhero movie. Brie Larson has 1 facial expression that never changes, if she is the face of the MCU then it's doomed.

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You're looking for something, and are forcing the facts to fit your wishes.

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How am i forcing facts to fit my wishes, facts are facts that is why they are called facts not feelings or assumptions.

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I agree with most of what you said Sokar. However, I think Brie did some more emotion than you're letting on and I enjoyed the film probably a bit more than you.

You're 100% correct though that there is a political message in the film and sometimes it's subtle and other times it hits you over the head like the ending with "I'm Just a Girl" playing. I could have done without that but it's a good song non-the-less.

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Actually filmbuff(oxymoron) his post is a 100% accurate relating to this Basura forced movie. It is you who are turning both blind eyes and hiding from the facts that this movie is pushing an agenda.

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Lol what agenda? Like seriously these posts are fucking pathetic. It's a fun comic book movie that's hero is a woman. Not the first, not the last. If it has a message about female empowerment or even diversity, what is the big deal? What about that scares you so much? I saw it and loved it and thought Brie was great in the part. Amazingly as a white man I didn't feel like my standing in the world was threatened by any of this.

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Oh yeah, we all know the superhero just happens to be a woman. We were told during the trailers, the magazine covers, the commercials, the ads all over the buses and trains in NY. Future is female, she's your HERo, what was the name of the song playing during the fight scene🤔? Movie in MY opinion ( what you think for some reason is fucking pathetic) is an overhyped agenda filled showcase. I dont care what color you are, I dont know why you had to throw in that you're a white male. Far from scared, but very angered. Let's shoehorn a new character into the universe and change the whole plot to appease. Fuck that 🖕 Russo bros. didn't even want the character in their movie but were forced by Disney.

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Lol

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Can you offer any examples from the film to bolster your assertion?

I saw a movie in which a superhero overcame the challenges other superheroes typically overcome on their way to superhero-dom. There was not a single moment in the film that would have needed to have been rewritten or reimagined if Captain Marvel were male. Absolutely nothing in the film that I recall in any way referenced feminism, pushed an agenda, or acted as a cry for social justice for the downtrodden.

I don't know that you will be able to acknowledge this, but consider-- you are clearly a part of a far-I-don't-know-what-direction fringe element that sees an agenda in everything. If you've been told by others whose opinions you trust that a given film has an SJW message, you will find that message whether it's there or not. On the other hand, I'm a right-leaning moderate who believes feminism and/or SJWs are polluting American society with a misguided, backwards message. It's unlikely I'm going to miss even a subtle agenda pushing something I despise. Food for thought...

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Once the movie started doing the rounds Brie "i hate white dudes" Larson came out whith such moronic things if i was Kevin Feige i would have fired her. Rule 1, don't piss off your main demographic, Star Wars is now finding this out to their detriment. Then the director and advertising start pushing the "HER"o agenda and retconning the previous canon with the tesseract and removing Captain America's first avengers tag, because we now have to believe it's Captain Marvel to fit the modern idioligy that woman are superior. It was stated multiple times that this movie would be pushing an agenda and feminist ideals, they made no secret of this.

During the film you can see it clear as day even the straight up ticklist from the Bechdel test. She speaks over/interupts in a condescending manner to anyone including her superiors (see Star Trek Discovery for a better example).

Every male charcater that keeps putting her down, pushing her down, telling her she is not good enough is a white male. All the charcaters giving her praise and bigging her up are woman because how dare a man praise her we can't have that. Jude law has basically be said to be mansplaining to her by critics, straight out of the feminist handbook.

Their is no love interest instead it is replaced with her friend Monica Rambeau (again see Bechdel test) even though every stand alone marvel movie has had a love interest for the hero.

The skrulls are basically an alagory for immigration.

The shootout with Rambeau and Fury, we are meant to beleve that a super spook like Fury can't hande himself in a gunfight. He is purposefully newtered to make sure that it is Captain Marvel is the reason he is awesome in future movies.

And of course the stupid "No Doubt " song, my god that is cringeworthy, it's basically the same as Kathleen Kennedy and her "Force is female" T-Shirt.

Their are many more, there is a good midnight edge video that goes into great detail, more than i ever could, these are just some of the ones i picked up on.

The movie starts off well but they can't keep their identity politics out.

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Which is a shame to be honest as i didn't know much about the charcater and before this all kicked of i was quite looking foward to this but SJW's will always put agenda before entertainment, we are seeing it more and more in movies an TV. If ths doesn't bother you then fine, your free to do as you wish.

Finally i'm sure i will be called a alt-right, manbaby and whatever "ism" you want to use and somehow i will be scared of woman, don't see how that is possible to be honest. Back in the day it was called an opinion, now it's toxic fandom, trolls. Unfortunately these words are losing all meaning as they are used instead of having a conversation, it is an easy excuse for people who disagree, their is even an article about SJW types wanting actual legislation to combat fandom and trolls. Really legislation, laws, it's becoming a joke but unfortunately these are people invading our entertainment to push their identity politics and agenda.

I give a 6/10. IT's ok, similar to Thor 2, Iron Man 2, if it wasn't for the agenda and retconning your own canon it could have been better especially with a better lead actress, Brie Larson is not up for the role. Also everyone forgets that Captain Marvel is bsically hthe ultimate Mary Sue.

If these same comments and actions had been made by a white man he would be lambasted and run out of town for being sexist but for some reason we should give this movie and Brie Larson a free pass because they are about a woman, sorry doesn't fly. if you dish it out prepare to receive the same critisicm

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This is 100% correct FilmBuff, but I do have to stress your point about how 'unfortunate' Larson's comment regarding A Wrinkle in Time was.

I don't know if her statement was endorsed by Ava DuVernay, but Larson is not the director behind A Wrinkle in Time. Who is Larson to say who the film was made for (yes, its target audience is mostly likely to be young girls and women of colour, but I suspect that there is enough in the film to hypothetically appeal to other demographics, including the appearance of Chris Pine as the lead's father)?

Larson may indeed be right about film criticism being overly-represented by white men (although that might be in part because many cinephiles and film obsessives tend to be white men - then again one might conversely argue that this is because so many films have historically been taken from the POV of white men - it's almost a chicken or the egg type scenario), but I do feel that she could have expressed her point in a much more elegant and less alienating manner.

Still, I also have to stress what you rightly say with respect to Captain Marvel: Larson was not talking about Captain Marvel.

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Regardless of if a film is made with White people, let alone White Males in mind or not isn't the point. A Wrinkle in Time flopped HARD so hardly anyone of any ethnicity or gender saw the film. That is why Bries comment about the film is so moronic.

Films are made to make money. It doesn't matter who is starring in it or who the film is primarily made for. I could make a Blade movie where he is White instead of Black and if it makes no money and gets negative reviews, I can't just say "Well, the movie wasn't made for people of different races in mind so I don't want to hear from anyone with any form of criticism regarding my film, unless they are White.", that's just not how the industry works and that is a sure fire way to make yourself out to look like a bigot.

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I love this era we’re in where people blame the alt right or trolls or Russians on failures of any sorts. Massive denial going on these days. Sad!

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Respect +1

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if brie larson dident spreaded hate against white males everywhere then people wouldent be so pissed at her

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what a surprise another braindead post by Malkovich

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Or maybe Brie Larson shouldn't have tried so hard to alienate the largest demographic that goes to see comic book movies???

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hush now.... retards like OP can't handle the truth , it might call you a russian or an asshole, or both

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No, there are enough trolls and assholes in the West without having to blame Russia.

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Lol anyone who isn't far left is far right I guess?

Literally never met anyone who would classify as far right - in the actual non exaggeration sense.

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Marxism only can exist with a dehumanized boogeyman...hence this alt-right crap. Disagree? ALTRIGHT.

Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.

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Lol, trolls. Make a better movie.

The bot brigade only proves the "trolls" correct.

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