When is Amenadiel going to learn? - Lucifer (2016) Discussion

[–] JonasArm 8 years ago

The Chloe and Lucy relationship is Amenadiel's problem has it risks exposing the supernatural.

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[–] centrd 8 years ago

Umm...Amenadiel exposed his divinity to Malcolm. And royally messed that up. He should let Lucifer handle his own problems. Especially considering he's not trying to get anyone killed as Amenadiel was. Not to mention, it's Chloe, who already doesn't react the same way other humans do.

Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague. —Vincent Van Gogh

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[–] JonasArm 8 years ago

Amenadiel took risks (and does admit having made mistakes) but in Malcolm's case he thought Malcolm wouldn't expose anything as he knew he would get hell if he were to anger the higher powers. There is a scene where we see that Malcolm was under the sentence of death were he to betray Amenadiel.

Lucifer handling his own problem has led to Amen having to step in to watch over hell, not to mention putting the whole divine order being in trouble by rebelling agains their father and falling as a consequence. Basically there is an entire history of Lucy doing his own thing and havoc wrecking as a result.

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[–] centrd 8 years ago

Well, that's rewriting history. In the comic, on which Lucifer's based, Amenadiel is a horrible angel and gets his due in the end. DB Woodside's Amenadiel is a lot more sympathetic, and has a possible redemption trajectory, but he's not the hero of the story. Believe it or not, Lucifer is the hero of this story.

Sneaking around and interfering instead of just addressing what he perceives to be a problem is why Amenadiel is now in the process of "falling" and losing his powers.

Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague. —Vincent Van Gogh

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[–] JonasArm 8 years ago

It's not the comic and Lucy being the hero or not has nothing to do with Amenadiel's right to interfere.

Amenadiel has seen Lucifer going about his business with cataclismic results many times. Hence, for better or worse, his intervention.

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[–] centrd 8 years ago

Well, sorry to break it to you, but Amenadiel's not going to come out on top by lying, manipulating and interfering. It's not his path to redemption. And he's going to have to figure that out if he wants to go back to Heaven permanently.

Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague. —Vincent Van Gogh

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[–] JonasArm 8 years ago

"for better or worse" is what I wrote, meaning that I never thought his interference was good. But rather, there are good reasons why he intervienes.

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[–] centrd 8 years ago

And what are they? What damage has Lucifer done on Earth, or anywhere?

If we can't quote the comic, which it's actually based on, then you can't quote the bible, (or more accurately, the folklore around the bible), either.

Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague. —Vincent Van Gogh

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[–] JonasArm 8 years ago

I answered more in the other post but the bible and the comic are two different things. The series is based on the comic but of course the comic doesn't exit in the series. The bible does and is cited several time with some corrections about the true events from Maze, Amen or Lucy.

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[–] centrd 8 years ago

And exactly what cataclysmic results are you talking about? Amenadiel having to guard the gates? Yeah, horrendous, --to no one but Amenadiel. If God wanted Lucifer back in Hell he could send him back with a snap of his celestial "fingers".

Lucifer doesn't kill anyone, or hurt anyone (except the damned souls he was assigned to punish). Lucifer's sin was wanting free will. He didn't hurt anybody. Amenadiel's directly and indirectly responsible for many deaths in a very short time. Hence his "fall".

Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague. —Vincent Van Gogh

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[–] JonasArm 8 years ago

You're going at it pretending that I said Amen was all good. But you also seems to think that it's either Lucifer or Amenadiel.

They are both at fault. We've seen Amen's with Malcolm. Lucy's ways were leading to the escapes from hell including the mother whom Lucy is now searching. Amenadiel prevented that for as long as he could.

So yes, Lucy wants free will but doesn't care about the consequences until it hits.
Same thing happened as he tried to start a gang war and regretted it when it hit the fan.

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[–] centrd 8 years ago

You are stretching. I took a simple, somewhat tongue in cheek premise of advising Amenadiel to get his act together before he falls as far as Lucifer fell and you assertively dispute it by saying Amenadiel's actions are justified. Whether he is correct or not about Lucifer sharing his divinity is not the point, it's his methods that I was calling into question.

You're not backing up your claims whatsoever. Lucifer almost started a gang war, realized the error of his ways and tried to correct the situation by getting humans to safety. He's learning. That's one reason he's here. He's even got a therapist. Amenadiel on the other hand, only realized the error of his ways after people were dead, and he pretended to BE a therapist. Instead of learning from his mistakes, he's repeating them.

The show is referencing the mythology of Gaiman's comic, based on Paradise Lost which also has the words God and angels and the devil all over it. So you can't use your idea of what Lucifer was responsible for in the Bible (especially since those events aren't actually in the bible but rather in the folklore surrounding the bible) to support your claim that Lucifer's behavior has had catastrophic results. But if we did include the Bible, just for the hell of it, in the Bible Lucifer has only killed a handful of people, compared to God's angels and God Himself, who regularly wiped out families, towns, an entire gender of infants, and even all of humanity at one point, minus Noah & his family. Amenadiel and/or God don't own the moral high ground here, their actions have been far more catastrophic than Lucifer's, whether in the mythology the show is based on, OR the Bible.

Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague. —Vincent Van Gogh

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[–] JonasArm 8 years ago

Where does this idea of me mentionning the bible comes from ? I never mentionned the bible, the consequences of Lucy's actions are the ones we see in series.

You're bible reference is contradicted in the series by the fact that angels aren't allowed to kill people.

In your initial comment, you were putting into question (forbidding) the right for Amenadiel to mingle while I was arguing that he can. The way is does it I have never qualified it : good intervention or bad intervention.

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[–] centrd 8 years ago

The bible does and is cited several time with some corrections about the true events from Maze, Amen or Lucy.

Those were your words, not mine.

I'm done with this conversation. The intention of this thread was to lighten things up because of all the trolls who bombarded us today and you just want to engage in a pointless argument. It's not why I come here. I come here to enjoy the show with others who enjoy it. Not engage in petty bickering.

Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague. —Vincent Van Gogh

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[–] JonasArm 8 years ago

Mentioning the bible came from you: you wanted not to reference the comic if I was not to mention the bible: hence why I thought important to explain that the two had a different place in relationship with the series. The bible exists in the series, the comic doesn't.

None of my claims and ideas have come from the bible: only the series.

The last claim is the problem that comes from the beginning: you seem to assume instead of reading: you just decided what was my purpose for coming here. Why leave and dis me on the way out instead of just saying that you do not want to continue the conversation ?

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[–] readerf61 8 years ago

I'm not sure I'm following your reasoning. To me, and this is based strictly on the show, Lucifer resigned from his job in Hell and came to earth for a holiday. God rejected his resignation, but too bad, Luci is gone. So, god tells Amen to get Luci back or he has to take over hell. Thus far, Lucifer has done *nothing* that I would call evil or bad. There's no commandment that says, "Thou must stay in a job that sucks." So, too bad for everyone else.

Amenadiel, on the other hand, used his divine power to bring a dirty cop back to life, turns a blind eye to the fact that his action causes the death of a human (Malcolm's old partner--the fall guy for the Palmetto problem) and actually requests the murder of his brother. I'm pretty sure *that* breaks a commandment, or maybe a few. He slept with a demon. And most recently, he lied to said demon when he said, oh, yeah, definitely cool with a little break when one could see that Maze's coolness was tearing him up inside.

So, the OP suggests that Amenadiel is having a fall from grace. For his actions, which have been far from divine.

And, this is where I'm confused, it seems you disagree? Or maybe I'm not understanding the point you are trying to make.

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[–] centrd 8 years ago

You and me both. The poster claims that Lucifer has caused "cataclysmic events" that Amenadiel had to correct thereby justifying his despicable deeds. First of all, what "cataclysmic events"? The ONLY thing that has happened since Lucifer left Hell is his mother got out, and that is all on Amenadiel. If Amenadiel hadn't resurrected Malcolm, he wouldn't have been mortally injured and/or weakened enough to leave the gates of Hell unattended.

Also, I highly doubt God even sent Amenadiel to get Lucifer back to Hell. At best it was probably the heavenly host, at worst, Amenadiel because he didn't want the job. You can see how shocked Amenadiel was when Lucifer said he'd heard from "Dad". Dad doesn't talk to these guys. Even in his supposed instructions to Lucifer to bring Mom back, he doesn't actually say anything. It's all Lucifer's interpretation of what God wants. That could be another reason for Amenadiel's fall, not just his bad deeds but his presumption of what God wants for Lucifer.

I had the idea that the world’s so full of pain it must sometimes make a kind of singing. --R. Hass

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[–] JonasArm 8 years ago

The original statement is just about Amenadial intervening to tell Chloe that it's all an act... I stated that he had reasons to do so because the knowledge of the supernatural affects more than just Chloe and Lucifer.

I did not qualify neither Lucifer's actions nor those of Amenadial either positively or negatively. I never said Lucy is evil and Amen is good. I said that Lucy's actions often come with consequences that he may not always care about and that based on that, it's understandable that Amen decides to intervene for such a secret being exposed could be particularly shaking.

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[–] readerf61 8 years ago

I have to say that was clear, and I really was confused.

I think Lucifer actually *wanted* Amenadiel to get involved. I don't think the statement about at least getting him out of his depression, or whatever, was just snark. I think he was actually a bit worried about his brother, and how he was handling all the events--falling for a demon, mum escaping, and the demon--Maze--disappearing. Still, I don't think he expected the little show and tell Amenadiel had with Chloe.

But other than the concern for his brother, and knowing this would get him upset and involved, I don't think Lucifer really cared if Chloe tested his blood. On one hand, dangerous, on the other, it would finally prove his point, that he is the devil. He's not terribly great at risk assessment at times.

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[–] jncarriere 8 years ago

Amenadiel's interference not only caused death,but also wreaked havoc for everyone involved. Trixie could have died from his so called "good intentions" and he has shown to be as much if not more petulant and selfish then Lucifer. If that wasn't enough he is also arrogant,but I still like him.

Also lets leave the bible out of it.

“imperfection is an altogether attainable human goal,” and “love is acceptance of imperfections.

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[–] centrd 8 years ago

Yeah, I like him a lot too. I just want to shake some sense into him. Same way I want to shake some sense into Luci, sometimes. :)

It especially bummed me out how his pride prevented him from connecting with Maze when he clearly wanted to and I think she was hoping he would. I think she could offer him some guidance too. Sure he was feeling rejected and covered that up with a cavalier attitude, but if he could be honest, he wouldn't have blown his chance with her so completely. But I don't hold him responsible for this, he's only learning to deal with feelings. He's just being a big lug and I want to whack him upside the head sometimes.

Besides, their split provides romantic tension which is always better in a story than actual romance. :)

Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague. —Vincent Van Gogh

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[–] shempXIV 8 years ago

For an angel, Mr. A displays a lot of human qualities (and not all of them good).

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[–] centrd 8 years ago

Excellent point. And interesting, because all the angels think they're so superior to humans, and yet, other than their strength and powers, they're just as fallible as the rest of us. And they're all proud, not just Lucifer.

Lucifer actually seems to be a bit more interested in how humans think than his brethren, and is more sensitive to their feelings. You can see lots of examples of it. Like when he tells Linda that in his experience, women don't like when men punch holes through things. After having sent her flowers and chocolates to apologize. There are actually lots of examples of him figuring out how humans work and acting accordingly, right along with all the ones where he doesn't. Like when he offers the grieving boyfriend "another song". lol...that's the clueless Lucifer we can't help but love.

Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague. —Vincent Van Gogh

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[–] samhaincat-50015 8 years ago

Sadly I think its all part of the learning curve and let's face it both Lucifer and Amenadiel are a bit damaged by the actions of their parents.

Added note: Lucifer spilled the beans in season 1 about his mortality and Amenadeil immediately took advantage of it. So why did Luci again spill the beans with the blood sample to Amenadiel? Lucifer trusts his brother and Amenadiel uses that trust against him-although Lucifer didn't seem upset this time. Luci also needs to learn not to give trust unless it is earned. Granted Amenadiel did save Lucifer in Season 1 after his own bad action really sank in.

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[–] centrd 8 years ago

This is very true, neither one of them have come out of that family entirely unscathed or emotionally stable.

Lucifer doesn't lie. And our TV Lucifer has no filter. But it's crazy that he'd tell Amenadiel, considering how sneaky the dude was, right up until two days ago!

If this Lucifer is anything like the comic Lucifer, then he knows exactly what he's doing, and he's actually setting Amenadiel up. But that's hard to say, seems the writers go back and forth with TV Lucifer, sometimes making him incredibly naive, and other times, quite cunning. His childlike qualities make him highly entertaining, but I do hope, as the series continues, that we get to see more of Lucifer's cunning and a little less of his blundering. The real (comic) Lucifer doesn't blunder. He's too smart.

Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague. —Vincent Van Gogh

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[–] samhaincat-50015 8 years ago

ITA in many ways he's like an innocent child - sometimes just not thinking it through. I also agree that he should be more cunning especially with the bad guys (one of my fav moments -epi 7 I think was with the auction guy when he growled "they are mine' he was quite menancing but I love the vulnerably emotionally scarred version as well - he still has a ways to go and that makes it so entertaining.

Just saw the new promo for next week - looks like something is seriously wrong with Amenadiel's wings - maybe he'll be too busy with his own humanity to interfere further with Luci's.

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[–] Tantrums 8 years ago

Just saw the promo, too, the wings really look kinda tattered... as he might be losing them.😰

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[–] samhaincat-50015 8 years ago

almost looks like they are cut in half. I hated what he did but he did realize it himself and start to make amends. Kind of sad he's being punished so brutally.

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[–] centrd 8 years ago

Great point about the wings. I noticed them but then forgot, but that's probably why Amenadiel's so upset in that scene. And yes, one would hope he learns to stay out of Lucifer's business, but I'm guessing he won't; he just doesn't seem to easily understand that the consequences he experiences are a result of his own actions.

Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague. —Vincent Van Gogh

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