MovieChat Forums > Meet the Mormons (2015) Discussion > I know I have a lotta nerve . . .

I know I have a lotta nerve . . .

posted 10 years ago by cgd3207
29 replies | jump to latest

. . . joining this discussion when I haven't seen the movie, but I think I have something to contribute: why I'm not going to see it.

I know that there are wonderful people out there who belong to the LDS church. In fact, I believe that the vast majority of the rank-and-file Mormons are really good people trying their best to live a good life and do what's right. So this documentary's got nothing to sell me -- or most of the non-LDS people in the world, I'd venture to guess.

What would be newsworthy would be a realistic look at the church hierarchy, and when I say realistic, I don't mean propaganda meant to deflect/hide/cover up the astounding gap between what they say they do, and what they really, really do. Why do they work so hard to keep women under their thumbs? Why did they kill the ERA? Why did they wait until practical monetary concerns convinced them that God changed His mind about black people? Why won't they address the incredible high rate of depression in Mormon women, the suicide rate of gay Mormon youth? Why is it all about money and power, if they're following the teachings of Jesus? Why are they determined to buy political decisions and turn this democracy into a theocracy with straight white guys calling all the shots?

That I would pay to see.

[–] Jeremy12345 10 years ago

Now I don't know if you are one who is just trying to start an argument or really just looking for an honest answer. I will assume you are the second type and I will try to answer your questions. First of all, the leaders of the church do not live two faced lives. They really are good people. I feel it is unfortunate that we live in a world where we see someone do good and we assume they are just doing it for show. They really are good people. They are honest, good, noble men and women (there are women leaders in the church they just aren't prophets and apostles). This brings me to my second point. The leaders don't keep women under their thumb. You may get this idea from the fact that women don't hold the priesthood. The blessings of the priesthood, however, are given to all. We simply believe that men and women have different but equally important roles. If anything women are put on a pedestal in the church. This idea that we don't value women simply comes from those who do not understand the priesthood. Acting through the authority and power of the priesthood to bless all of God's children is a role God gave to men. Women have been given other gifts to bless Gods children. In the church we have what is called the relief society, and there are leaders of the church that lead this organization, which is the oldest women's organization in the world. There are also women who are leaders in primary and young women. One of the most important and divine roles God gave to women is motherhood. I cannot think of a more divine, important role than the nurturing and raising of a child. I don't exactly know what you are talking about with the killing of the ERA. I have no idea what that is that you are referring to. With the blacks not receiving the priesthood, it isn't that God changed his mind about them. God doesn't change. He has always loved every single person no matter their race. He loves us equally. I talked more about this in a previous thread, but I will repeat some of what I said. God doesn't change, but time and circumstances do. In fact even in the bible, God only gave the priesthood to those of a certain lineage. Is it because he doesn't like anyone else? If course not. The truth is we don't know everything. God knows everything and we don't. He operates under a much higher logic that we are not capable of comprehending. He had his reasons, although we don't know them, but they were definitely good ones. Some possible explanations, and may I emphasize possible because this is just speculation, could be that it was for the African American people's own protection. There was a lot of hatred toward them during that time both in and out of the church. There could have been even more unneeded persecution if we gave authority to them. It is important to note however that they were allowed to become members. Also it is important to realize that Gods teachings are perfect, but people are not. Perhaps it would have caused many problems within the church too. Again I don't have the answers but those are possibilities. I don't remember if there is anything else that you said, because on my iPod it won't let me look. However, allow me to tell you why despite all the things you may hear, even though most of it is twisted versions of the truth or flat out lies, the reason I know that this church is true and those who lead it are servants of God and really are good men. It all comes down to whether or not the Book of Mormon is true. It's either true and everything Joseph Smith said was true, or it was false and he was a liar. I have come to know it is true. I have read the Book of Mormon many times, and I have prayed to God about whether or not it is true. God answered that prayer. I am not saying he appeared to me, but when I prayed I was overcome by this deep overwhelming feeling that it was true to the point that I cannot deny it. If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph smith did experience what he said he did. If he did experience what he claimed them the principle taught in the church are true. One of those teaching being that we are lead by a prophet and God will never allow him to lead us astray. If that's true than those who lead us are servant of God. I have also prayed about those individual things and I know them to be true. Anyway I hope that helps

[–] Joe1973 10 years ago

Jeremy12345...I read your post and wasn't sure if you were being seriuos or if it was just satire...I will assume the first. I do beleive the members are good people, but the leadership I find to be not very honest. I can tell by reading your post that you probably do not have alot of knowledge concerning church history or critical issues concerning the church, this is typical for believers so I dont blame you. However answer this question true or false " Joesph Smith married teenage girls one as young a 14 yrs old when Joesph was around 37 years old, he also married other men's wives" Is this true or do you think it is one of those lies being spread about Joesph?

[–] Jeremy12345 10 years ago

I do not understand what about my post lead you to suspect satire, bit it seems you are more making fun of how I started my post. Anyway it is true that he was married to a fourteen year old and did marry other people who were already married. But like I said it is the twisted misrepresented truth. I actually do have a knowledge of church history. If you did too, you would know that there is more to the story. The church website actually has articles that go into depth about this very thing and can word it much better than I can. However I will attempt to explain to you. One thing that is important to note is that Joseph smith struggled with this commandment as did many members. It was a huge test of faith. But out of obedience he did what he was commanded. Most of Joseph smiths wives were between 20 and 50 years old but the youngest he was married to was a girl before her fifteenth birthday. One thing to note is that it wasn't socially unacceptable to marry young and it was legal in those days. However, another really important thing to realize is that there were marriages for time and all
Eternity and there were eternity only sealings. Eternity only sealings, as the name implies is for a married relationship only in the next life. There was no sexual relationship. This was the case for the fourteen year old. As for the marriages to those who were already married, there are different possible explanations. The records are not complete because those who were practicing polygamy were being confidential of their actions because of the persecution they were experiencing, particularly from the government. They created laws specifically to punish members of the church in regards to this practice. So they had to be confidential to avoid being put in jail for excercising their religious beliefs. Anyway, one possible explanation is that they were eternity only sealings. There were many who were married to non mormons or former members, but wanted the blessings of an eternal marriage. Also, there were probably many who were not happy in their marriage relationship and wanted to be happy in the eternities. Another possible explanation is that this could have been a way to link the sealed families together. It explains more about this on the article I mentioned earlier. So the answer to your question is true, but there is more to the story. I hope I explained myself clearly. As I stated earlier though the reason I know this church is true, and that the leaders are honest good men is because I prayed about it and God answered

[–] Joe1973 10 years ago

Ok, I guess you were serious...you basically just paraphrased the LDS essay on the subject, even including he married a girl before her 15th birthday instead of just saying he married a 14 yr old, same ploy retailers use $4.99 sounds better than $5. You basically proved my point that you don’t really understand Church history or American history for that matter. You are incorrect that it was common for 14 yr olds to marry, only 2% of the populace married at 14 yrs old and that was with someone of similar age; it was not at all common for a 37 yr old man to marry a 14 yr old girl. The common age of marriage back then was 20-24 yrs of age. You are right they were persecuted for this practice, the followers of Warren Jeffs are going through the same so called persecution today; civil society doesn't take well to pedophiles like Smith and Jeffs. You may call this persecution but I for one am glad that this type of behavior is as unacceptable back in Smiths day as it is today. Your God may give you a fuzy feeling and tell you grown men marrying little girls is a good thing, but if I were you I would question this for your own sake. Since you brought up the essays you might want to read the race and the priesthood one your church has changed its answer on that as well, the answers you have been giving are not in accordance with your leadership anymore. You can look at CESletter.com for more information on critical issues facing the church.

[–] Jeremy12345 10 years ago

Ok, I want you to reread my post and tell me where it was that I said that marrying 14 year olds was common. Those were not the terms I used. I said it wasn't socially unacceptable. That is not synonymous with the word common. Also, I think you kind of skipped over the point that there was no sexual relationship with that marriage. He was not a pedophile. Anyway I see you are here to argue, and not to seek honest answers to honest questions. I really wish we could just agree to disagree, rather than attack each others beliefs.

[–] Joe1973 10 years ago

Really Jeremy! It was socially acceptable for a 37 yr old man to marry a 14 yr old girl. You say he didn’t have sex with her, how do you know that? When Warren Jeffs was asked if he had sex with underage girls he said No, his followers said the same, but that wasn't the case. The fact is we do know he had sex with women other than Emma, we do know that the following Mormon prophets had sex with their wives too. So your claim that joesph married Helen but didn't have sex with her is a real ridiculous. I will never agree to disagree with some who thinks it is "social acceptable" for a 37 yr old man to marry a little girl. It was never social acceptable for JS to marry a child, it was not socially acceptable for JS to marry other men’s wives, it was not socially acceptable for him to lie to his wife, followers, and public about his affairs...JS was socially unacceptable that is why he was persecuted.

[–] Jeremy12345 10 years ago

I would say that the laws of the land normally give a general good idea of what is acceptable and what is not. For example, it has always been in the history of our country socially unacceptable to murder, steal. And because of that there are laws forbidding such actions. Another example, there was a time where it was socially acceptable to have slaves so the law permitted it. The fact is that it the law permitted girls that young to marry as long as there was parental permission, which there was by the way. How do I know he didn't have a sexual relationship? The same way most historical facts are accepted as facts, records. There are records from the girl herself saying that there wasn't a sexual relationship involved. It was an eternity only sealing. I will agree that it wasn't socially acceptably to have multiple wives. The fact though is that, just like it was at times in the bible practiced and authorized by God, it was something that was commanded by God at that time. Also, according to historical, records, Joseph smith was reluctant to follow at first. Also, there are no records of him having children with his other wives. His true intention was to be loyal to Emma. But he wanted to be obedient to God more, so he did practice polygamy. So really we don't know who he did or did not have sex with. But because of my knowledge that he was a prophet of God I know that his actions were in accordance with Gods commands. I am going to leave it at that, because as much as I love to answer questions and defend my faith, I also understand it needs to be done in the right kind of spirit. And because its evident that you are here to argue. This will likely be my last reply. I don't want to argue. I think it is fine to have discussion about differences as long as both show respect for the others beliefs. However, you have been attacking mine, and I don't have to deal with that kind of verbal abuse. You are free to believe what you want. I respect whatever it is you believe too. It doesn't mean I support or condone it. But you, like me are free to believe as you wish

[–] Joe1973 10 years ago

I find your arguments no different then those who defend warren jeffs. Jeffs followers also pray to know their prophet is true and the BoM. Assuming it was indeed socially acceptable for 14 year old girls to marry 37 yr old men (census and historical perspectives indicates otherwise...) what should that matter to an unchanging God and absolute morality. Furthermore if marriage patterns are to be dictated by what is acceptable at the time, why the fuss about gay marriage. It is now a different time. Just like it was supposedly "different then." I'm glad you think you have facts that JS didn't have sex with Helen and that your poor prophets struggled so much with polygamy. But what do the witnesses/mormon prophets of the time say? Here you go.

William Law
"Joseph was very free in his talk about his women. He told me one day of a certain girl and remarked, that she had given him more pleasure than any girl he had ever enjoyed. I told him it was horrible to talk like this." - Joseph Smith's close confidant and LDS Church First Councilor, William Law, Interview in Salt Lake Tribune, July 31, 1887

Jeremy, you also say that helen's parents gave consent for JS to marry helen. What type of man was Mr. Kimball and what was his thoughts on polygamy? here you go

"I think no more of taking another wife than I do of buying a cow." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Twenty Seventh Wife, Irving Wallace, p. 101..

"Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, The Lion of the Lord, office:New York, 1969, pp.129-30.

"I say to those who are elected to go on missions, remember they are not your sheep: they belong to Him that sends you. Then do not make a choice of any of those sheep; do not make selections before they are brought home and put into the fold. You under stand that. Amen" - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.256.

"I have noticed that a man who has but one wife, and is inclined to that doctrine, soon begins to wither and dry up, while a man who goes into plurality [of wives] looks fresh, young, and sprightly." - Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses Vol 5, page 22

Your right your prophets had such a hard time accepting polygamy...educate yourself Jeremy.

[–] 10 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Harry_Bottom 10 years ago

Joesph Smith married teenage girls one as young a 14 yrs old

There is a church essay out explaining Joseph Smith's polygamy. According to the essay, she wasn't 14.

The youngest was Helen Mar Kimball, daughter of Joseph’s close friends Heber C. and Vilate Murray Kimball, who was sealed to Joseph several months before her 15th birthday.

LOL. They can't bring themselves to admit she was 14, so they say she was several months from her 15th birthday. That is classic.

[–] cgd3207 10 years ago

I'm not trying to start anything. I've read too many books, works by respected historians, that show real deception, deliberate and purposeful deception, on the part of the "Prophets" and "Apostles." I'm willing to believe that at least some of them think they're doing what's right, but sometimes what they do is immoral and they do it to protect their earthly power.

I simply do not buy any of the rhetoric designed to cover up the fact that women are not treated as equal human beings in the LDS Church. It's all rationalization so that men can keep their unearned authority and privilege.

I would never dream of pronouncing on the validity of your emotional experience in prayer; but I would say that for you to think that your experience confers the same absolute truth on everyone else's experience is a bit ambitious.

You have found your truth, and you are content with it. Please pray that it not cause you to turn your head from wrongdoings. The leaders of your Church are not faultless, not by a long shot. Many times when they say God has told them something, they mean that they want to do something and they are using the unquestioning authority people like you hand them in order to do wrong -- to oppress women, to control people, to hide their mistakes, to present their Church as something it is not.

And they can fool a lot of people, apparently, but believe me: they haven't fooled Him.

[–] Jeremy12345 10 years ago

First of all, I acknowledge that the leaders of the church are not perfect people. None of us are, but they are honorable and very respectable men. What they do is definitely not immoral. Those who actually knew the prophets and apostles in the early church, or those who know the current ones, for the most part, say that they are very good people.

Women are definitely treated equal, and if anything else are on a pedestal in this church. I have already talked about this though. One point that I didn't make though is that it isn't that the women don't have the priesthood. They have different roles than men do. In the temple women do act in the power of the priesthood. Women minister to women. I won't go into detail, because what happens in the temple is sacred. But they do exercise the priesthood. They are not bishops, stake presidents, apostles, etc. That is because they have a different role. Men and women are different. That is a fact. Just like there are anatomical differences, there are different God-given roles given to each gender.

Also, nowhere in my posts did I say people should just accept my word for it and because I had a good experience with prayer everyone else should join. The reason I share that is because I wanted to point out that the best source to know what is true and what is not is God himself. In sharing that experience, I am simply inviting others to seek out that same kind of experience. I served as a missionary for two years in Japan, and my experience is that those who read the Book of Mormon with a sincere desire to know if it is true, and then pray with the intent to act on the answer you may receive, those who do this will receive an answer to know it is true.

In the Book of Mormon in Moroni chapter 10 verses 4-5 it says basically what i just said, but in a better way:

4.And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

I can say I have put this to the test, and I know it works. If you actually do have a desire to know and sincerely ask God, He will answer you.

[–] cgd3207 10 years ago

"Women are definitely treated equal . . ."

You have a strange definition of "equality." Does it mean being told to obey your spouse, because he's the head of the family? That's not equal. That's unearned male privilege and authority. Does it mean that you are not represented in the church leadership, that you can never hold a position of real power in the church, because you don't have a penis? That's not equal, and all the rhetoric in the world doesn't make it so.

" . . . and if anything else are on a pedestal in this church." What you're saying is that women are forced into the place that men want them to occupy, no matter what they themselves as autonomous human beings want, for men's own convenience. Women exist to support and fulfill men, period. This attitude is abundant in the early writings of the Church's founders, who were as big a bunch of immoral horndogs as ever existed. I invite you to try living a real life while stuck up on a pedestal. It's extremely restraining, in fact you can't move or you'll fall. It's horribly exposed, too. And lonely. It's really just a prison -- or a form of torture -- that somebody's relabeled, thinking it will become more acceptable and attractive.

I do ask God, and I'm getting some very, very different answers from yours.

[–] Jeremy12345 10 years ago

Ok you seem to have a very skewed view of how we view women. It's not hat women just do what their husband tells them. That is not what we teach in the church. We teach that husbands and are equal partners in their marriage. They are to listen to each other, and be unified. Women in the church are not forbidden from seeking a career either. You misunderstood what I was trying to point out with the whole man and women are different thing. The point I was trying to make was that equality does not equal sameness. We are to treat anyone no matter what with live and respect. But the fact is we all have different personalities, roles in life, goals, responsibilities. The fact is we are different. God loves us equally, though. Women definitely do have very important leadership roles in the church contrary to what you seem to think. I wasn't doubting that you pray to God. But my question is though have you ever actually really sincerely red the Book of Mormon and then prayed to know its true?

[–] ProfessorMovieMovie 10 years ago

I'm sorry Jeremy but you are one of the most naive and gullible people I have come across on these forums.

Blind faith is just that. Completely blind. The leaders of groups such as yours thrive on it.

If an idiot were to tell you the same story every day for a year, you would end by believing it. Horace Mann

[–] Jeremy12345 10 years ago

Well I didn't come here to slam on others beliefs. You have the right to believe as you wish. But I can assure you, what I have is not blind faith, nor am I naive. I believe what I do, not because that is what I am told, but because of experiences that I have had. I don't expect you to believe me, nor do I think you should simply take my word for it. I simply invite people to read the Book of Mormon and seek a spiritual experiences. You are free to say what you want about me, this church, or the leaders of the church, even if what you say is inaccurate. But what you cannot do is take away the experiences that I have had, and may I tell you they are many. I have witnessed miracles, I have had answers to many prayers, I have felt God's guidance, I have received a lot of help from God, and more importantly I have felt God's love. I know He loves me and all of his children. No matter what you say you cannot take that away. I have had many experiences to be able to deny the truthfulness of what the church teaches. I am not just some blind follower who just believes this because the rest of my family does. I believe because through many wonderful experiences I have come to know its true.

[–] Jeremy12345 10 years ago

I don't know how to edit on my iPod, what I meant to say on that last part is: I have had too many experiences to be able to deny the truthfulness of this church. I simply cannot deny it

[–] ProfessorMovieMovie 9 years ago

Jeremy, I don't care what you choose to believe in, really I don't. That is entirely your personal choice. You can believe in blue fairies from the planet Boodle for all I care. I would even fight for your right to hold that belief.

However, that will not stop me from forming and even stating, in a conversation such as this, my opinion on those beliefs. Based on my experience. Even if they disagree with your beliefs, opinions, etc.

I believe that the Mormon church, not unlike many other "faiths" is based on a huge, long running and highly effective con.

You do not. Good for you. Just don't accuse me of trying to take your choices away from you because I state my beliefs which are contrary to yours. I would not "take it away" from you, even though I know it's a bunch of hooey. I can disagree with someone and not be a threat to what they want to believe in life. Can you? Can the Mormon church?

The LDS sure spend a ton of time and money trying to take away my rights, beliefs and way of life all the time. Are you saying your church can work hard to deny folks their beliefs but you will get offended if you assume I am doing the same to you?

You just go on and "keep the faith" and also... have a nice day.

If an idiot were to tell you the same story every day for a year, you would end by believing it. HM

[–] Jeremy12345 9 years ago

I never said you are not allowed to express your opinion. I said you can say whatever you want about my beliefs. That is your right, it doesn't even matter if what you say is accurate, respectful, or kind. You are free to say what you want. But I have the right to defend my beliefs. By the way, nothing you said or anyone has said has not offended me. I simply am defending what I believe. I believe what I do, not because that is what I have been told since I was a kid, but rather because of experiences I have had. I have had many experiences of God's guidance in my life. As a missionary, I had many experiences where God led me to someone seeking the truth. I have seen many miracles. I have prayed to know if this church is true, and He answered. That is what I know to be true and why i believe what I do. You don't have to believe me, but I do ask that you be respectful not just to me but to everyone, no matter their beliefs.

[–] ProfessorMovieMovie 9 years ago

And will you and your church always, without fail, be as respectful of what others believe as you want everyone to be of you?

I seriously doubt it. And I can prove it, too.

I have a belief that same sex marriages are a good thing, nothing wrong with it and should be legal and respected by everyone. Now, how much money does the Mormon church spend each year disrespecting that belief by trying to get actual laws passed that would deny same sex marriages?

So, I get it now. Everyone should respect you and your beliefs and your religion and your church. But when it comes to my beliefs, my experiences and what I think is right, your church can simply deny me my choices in life.

Oh boy, where do I sign up?

Believe what you want. As I said I would defend your right to believe what you want as far as your choice of religion. But when it comes to your church shoving their beliefs down my throat and using the legislative system and institution I am forced to live under to do it, I have a huge issue with all things Mormon.

When your church stops trying to dictate some of the most important aspects of my personal beliefs and my personal life, I will not have one word at all to say about it.

Until your church can do what they expect others to do, then I may stop thinking of them as among the most hypocritical organizations in the country. And maybe I can get past the whole cult thing, too. But I doubt it.

If an idiot were to tell you the same story every day for a year, you would end by believing it. HM

[–] Jeremy12345 9 years ago

First of all, I never claimed that people in the church are perfect. Unfortunately, some people in the church will not always respect others.
Also, respect does not mean support. The leaders of the church have been clear, we are to respect those with opposing beliefs. In other word we are to be loving and kind to all people. It doesn't mean we have to support and condone those beliefs.

I will use an example to make my point. I don't know how familiar you are with the Bible, but there is the story of the woman taken in adultery. Those who took her in asked what to do with her because the law of Moses says that such should be stoned. This woman was living a lifestyle opposing the things that Jesus taught. However, Jesus said let he who is without sin throw the first stone, pointing out it is not their place to judge. He treated the woman with love and respect and didn't condemn her, but he made sure that he didn't support or condone it. He told the woman to go and sin no more.

So, in other words we have the right to support whatever cause we want. Supporting things that we feel are good doesn't mean we are shoving our beliefs down people's throats. We are just using, not only freedom of religion, but also the freedom of speech to let our beliefs be known. We aren't forcing it on anybody. We are simply stating our positions and supporting causes we feel are worthy.

Like I said, you can believe what you want. You can say what you want. You also have the right to support whatever cause you wish. However, I think we should do so in a loving and a respectful way, which I think the church as an organization has done. Sometimes members are not respectful, but that's the fault of the person, not the church. Being disrespectful towards others goes directly against the teachings of the church

[–] ProfessorMovieMovie 9 years ago

Jeremy, your church, not it's individual people want to deny humans a basic human right and necessity in life. Since religion is so subjective and we agree that each person has a right to choose a religion, why do I have to be subjected to what your church wants for my life? I don't believe what you believe yet your church, again not it's individuals, are forcing me to live by its standards.

Yet, you say I should not do that to you or your church.

I don't need or have to have yours or your church's support or approval for anything I want to do with my personal life. As long as I am not breaking any laws, why can't you, your church and all individuals in it, just leave me alone and let me choose my life partner for myself?

I don't care what you say Jesus said about anything. I really don't. And as much as you preach about being respectful and loving to others, then you really should be all about leaving me and other adults (and children too, for that matter) alone in our personal lifestyle choices.

You don't approve of same sex marriage? Too bad. I don't approve of your version of Jesus. Do you see me passing laws to stop you from what I consider your harmful life choices that are, indeed and in fact, damaging an already hurting society?

What is respectful and loving about your church and its individuals seeking to deny me and others what we believe in? Just because you read it in your book and truly believe in it yourself does not make it true. And you have absolutely no right, nor does your church, to force me to even begin to agree with the stance that you should be allowed to do things in the name of your religious beliefs that clearly impose on me and my choices. Religious or not.

Again, when you and your church and every individual in it come to grips with the concept that you are wrong to dictate to others how they should live in terms of their sexuality (and that is just one issue Mormons impose upon society, there are many more), I will not have such an issue with any of you.

Believe what you want. But keep it to yourselves when it comes to my personal life choices.

If an idiot were to tell you the same story every day for a year, you would end by believing it. HM

[–] Jeremy12345 9 years ago

Well, this is going to be my last reply because, what I intended as a friendly conversation, no longer is. But you make it sound as if the church has great power within the government when they have none. The church is not forcing anything upon you. The church doesn't pass laws. In fact the place where Mormonism is most prominent, that being Utah of course, same sex marriage is legal. You have the choice and always will have the choice to do what you want. In our church we teach that the freedom to choose is one of the most important gifts we have been given. You can choose whatever you went. You can participate in whatever kind of relationship you want, whether that be heterosexual or homosexual or whatever else. Just know that with every choice comes a consequence. What the church has been trying to do is to protect the family. The number of dysfunctional families have substantially increased over the years. There are many factors. Some include divorce, domestic abuse, drugs, alcohol, and more. The church does what they can to protect the family from these things. We believe same sex marriage also poses a threat. I have read many studies that show children benefit greatly from having a mother and father. We promote traditional family lifestyles because those are most beneficial to children. I am not saying all mother-father couples are perfect. But in a general sense the best kind of family is a traditional one. It is about the children and the family as a whole. The family has always been intended to include mother father and child. Even biology and nature support that. No matter how much too guys try they can't have a child. We believe the family is ordained of God and do what we can to protect it. So you are free to live whatever lifestyle you want. But marriage both from a religious and from a legal point of view is to provide an institution to assist in raising a family. It's about the children. And studies show a traditional marriage is best for them. You are free to do what you want, but when your choices give consequences to others, laws need to be made. That is my personal opinion. I am not asking you to agree. Lets just agree to disagree and end this already.

[–] ProfessorMovieMovie 9 years ago

You are just so wrong on so many levels but you are very right about one thing, it's not worth carrying on with you anymore. You sound like you truly believe what you are saying is not cruel and does not cause others to suffer. I do think you are sincere in your belief that you are acting in the best interest of your community.

But just who are you and your church to say what makes a good family for everyone in the world? Or what is the most beneficial family model for children and what is not? Or what is best for everyone in society and if their choices are wrong or not? If it works for you fine, but please do not even look my way and try to tell me or anyone not living exactly like you and your church that they are wrong.

For you to say that your church does not try to pass laws that deny rights to people, effectively forcing your version of right and wrong on people is just an obvious case of cognitive dissonance. And I am not saying that to be insulting. It's just a fact. Remember that your loving church has barely joined the 21st century where race is concerned. Let alone homosexuality.

Just keep your religion off my body and out of my family life and out of laws that I have to live by and then talk to me about how loving, kind and awesome your church and the entities you worship are.

Joseph Smith as a role model for a healthy family life. Really?? Seriously?? Nothing hypocritical about that at all now is there?

You have a blessed day!

If an idiot were to tell you the same story every day for a year, you would end by believing it. -Horace Mann

[–] ProfessorMovieMovie 9 years ago

If anything women are put on a pedestal in the church. This idea that we don't value women simply comes from those who do not understand the priesthood. Acting through the authority and power of the priesthood to bless all of God's children is a role God gave to men. Women have been given other gifts to bless Gods children. In the church we have what is called the relief society, and there are leaders of the church that lead this organization, which is the oldest women's organization in the world.

Clearly you are willfully ignorant or just so gullible to the point of ridiculousness.

So, the mormons were around and formed this "oldest women's organization in the world" as far back as the 11th century? Do some independent research for once and stop relying on only one source for your information about the world.

You assume that no one else in the entire history of humans on this planet ever formed an organization for women. In the ENTIRE centuries long history no one else EVER thought to do this anywhere else in the whole world... you see how ridiculous and unfounded this statement is? The utter arrogance of your church is astounding.

Begin the Beguines... start there... it may be a somewhat familiar place for you and therefore not as disturbing when you realize the truth. But I warn you, it goes back even further than that. Careful when you do your own truth seeking, it may be a serious shock to your system to find out how wrong your church history really is. And the reasons why.

If an idiot were to tell you the same story every day for a year, you would end by believing it. -Horace Mann

[–] Jeremy12345 9 years ago

I know I told you that I would no longer reply, but I couldn't resist to clear your misunderstanding. I did my research, I even looked up beguines as you suggested. Every website I looked at, none of them being church websites, had the relief society as the oldest organization in the world. So let me clarify, that phrase "in the world" means currently still existing. I have no doubt that women's organizations have been created many times anciently. But they all eventually disappeared. The beguine were women in I believe the late 12th century. They are no longer an organization. The relief society was founded in 1842, and keeps on going today. So I was not saying that women's organizations weren't formed before 1842, but if they were they no longer exist. Therefore, they cannot be the oldest organization in the world. Also, I never claimed to have a perfect knowledge of church history and I acknowledge that some members of our church have done seemingly sketchy things in the past. Like I have said before it is the fault of the person not the church. And really it doesn't even matter if the relief society is the oldest women's organization. That doesn't matter nearly as much as the good in the world they do. Whether you believe our church or not, they definitely have done a lot of good in this world. I know for myself it is true and nothing you can say will ever take that away from me. Why don't we just leave it at that. You believe what you want and let me believe what I want. You, like me, have the right to express those beliefs to others. But arguing doesn't get us anywhere and is a waste of both your time and my time. So lets agree to disagree.

[–] donpadilla 10 years ago

I think the movie was made to show that Mormons are just like you and me. Except they can't drink caffeine, drink alcohol or watch Rated R movies.

I worked with this mormon guy before and I showed him the chainsaw scene from Scarface. The look on his face was priceless.

I like your nurse's uniform, guy.

[–] Jeremy12345 10 years ago

Yes the movies purpose was just to show that we are normal people. However, for your information, the no caffeine thing is a misconception. We are allowed to drink caffeine. Many Mormons, like myself however, choose to not drink caffeine, because it can be very addictive and it isn't very healthy. We are taught to avoid addictive substances and just use the best of your ability to make smart choices on what to take into your body, but the rest of what you said is true

[–] rosina-hauiti 9 years ago

Hi - I can well understand your reservations.I have read reviews from outside the LDS Church with the majority being quite non descript because the movie is very non descript except to Mormons. I'm Mormon and I agree with you that the LDS Church needs to clarify its position on some matters, but not what and how you have raised them. The LDS Church is Patriarchal in structure with a heavy emphasis on protecting families, ie women and children.I dont feel disadvantaged in the way you describe as being under the thumb. As you can tell by the way I write, that I am direct.No one tries to stop me. As for Blacks and the LDS Priesthood. I am a convert to the Church but only joined after Black men were permitted to hold the Priesthood.This block had been justified to me as the sins of the fathers, eg Cain and Abel, Nephi and Laman dumped on the heads of the children. I feel this is an ugly and very unfortunate part of LDS History.Never the less, it is heartening to me that the LDS Church has owned up to its racist past through he issuing of letters which disavows the former practice. They use polite language to explain this abhorrent practice which kind of spoiled the admission. It is what it is and the LDS Church was no different to other Churches who also condoned racism at the time. Its just they waited so long, perhaps too long before changing that archaic law and even more so to 2014 to issue the letters. Well done but not, better late than never if you catch my drift.

Your other concerns about the depression, well yes its not he first time I have heard that the rate is high amongst our women. I'm not sure why or about gay youth suicide, or the ERA, buying political decisions - which ones and where did you get all that info from? I'm from New Zealand so not overly familiar with US Politics, but I'd be happy to take a look at any links you can provide and offer an outside perspective?

Can I ask you, are you gay? I dont care if you are its just you have mentioned gay youth suicides and the General Authorities as being straight white males. Being gay may cloud your view of Mormonism but as for the GA's being straight white males, of course they would be, what did you expect when homosexuality the act is shunned in every sense by our doctrine? I do however have issue with the Church's image outside of the USA as being male white elderly educated and wealthy. I think the Church's identity needs to be inclusive and reflect the diversity of the countries and cultures it serves. Thats right, Mormonism is about serving the needs of the people according to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.I believe across the board ie in and out of our Church the lifestyle of Americans is held up as the ideal to strive for. I find that quite euro centric and perhaps is a remnant of its racist past.

There you go. Another perspective for you to consider. Shot from the hip.