MovieChat Forums > Meet the Mormons (2015) Discussion > I'll give the first Mormon to answer thi...

I'll give the first Mormon to answer this question honestly $100


How do you reconcile Joseph and Brigham's polyandry with the laws that condemn that practice as adultery?

Must address 10 Commandment condemnation of coveting another man's wife and committing adultery, the law of the land prohibiting bigamy and the Law of the Priesthood's condemnation of polyandry as adultery.

5 Violations of "The Law of the Priesthood" in one verse

According to the Mormon Church D&C 132:61-63 is "The Laws governing the plurality of wives." (Also known as "The New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage" or "The LAW of the Priesthood)

It reads....

D&C 132:61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent (Violation #1), and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins(#2), and have vowed to no other man (#3), then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him(#4); for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.(#5)

#1. Obviously Emma never gave her consent to phony 'marriages' to other men's wives. How stupid do you think she was? Not that stupid. She objected to her philandering husband's pretend 'marriages' to other women ever since she and Oliver Cowdery caught him 10 years before this pretend 'revelation on the Law of the Priesthood, caught Joseph Smith screwing the 16y.o. house help, Fanny Alger in what Cowdery characterized as "That dirty, nasty, filthy affair" between Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Alger#Affair_or_marriage.

#2. Obviously married women are not virgins when she's 7months pregnant with her REAL husband's baby.

#3. Obviously women who are married to other men do not qualify as 'marriage material' in any culture, time period or by any law.

#4. Obviously the 13 women who Joseph 'married' (had sex with) who were married to other men were not given to him by any law known to man. If there is such a law, written in scripture that contradicts the 10 commandments.

#5. IOW, if the 'plural wives' do not 'belong to you' AND they actually 'belong to another man' then it's adultery to claim them as your wife, to say nothing of the abuse of power by sexually exploiting another infinitely less powerful woman and her cuckolded husband.

References:

* Zina Huntington Jacob's 3 Marriages
1st to the love of her life, Henry Jacobs (Never divorced)
2nd to Joseph Smith, while 7mo pregnant w/Henry's child
3rd to Brigham Young, after Brigham Sent Henry on a mission to England, then got down to making babies with Henry's legally and lawfully wedded wife, Zina.
Why in my 40 years as a Mormon, was THAT important irrefutable FACT not disclosed?

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/M18Z-MPT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zina_D._H._Young#Marriages_and_children

**The "Law of the Priesthood"
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/132.58-66?lang=eng

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I don't know the answers and I don't care if he did those things. I am a Mormon. We all have made mistakes. But we can be repented on those things.

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Marrying 34 women is some kind of big mistake don't you think?

When 11 of his wives were already married to active LDS men that were sent away on missions, well that is hardly the behaviour of a genuine prophet right?

Do you really feel marrying a 14 year old girl is ethical?

I say this as i've watched 'Meet the Mormon's' and nothing in the movie even attempts to approach critical and concerning issues like these in LDS history. If the Director is going to make a movie about LDS life and what being LDS is, it might be helpful to the viewer to gain a fair insight. But that isn't offered here. None of the troubling issues are remotely even nodded to, instead we get what looks like feel good propaganda. Everything in this movie is troubling because of what it fails to state about true LDS beliefs.

You can say 'he repented of those things' all you like, but how does one man spend ten years lying about the existence of plural marriage in writing and from the stand, and still remain a figure in history worthy of respect, let alone revering?

Feel good movie that offers no genuine insight into the troubling history or doctrinal reality of the ideas it promotes.

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I have studied the sources in depth trying to ascertain the truth. The trick is to separate truth from falsehood, especially with the less accurate reporting that existed in the early 1800s. Every major leader over the years has had those making wild claims about them who play off the truth to make their lies seem believable. Barrack Obama's father was from Kenya so attention seekers claim they can prove he is foreign-born and not entitled to be president. Joseph is known to have approved of polygamy, and some people have used this fact to promulgate lies about him. Some claims I found are clearly lies, others are clearly true, others are uncertain. Here is what I found:

First a few clearly true facts: 1. Many women were "sealed" to Joseph Smith to be his wife in heaven after they both died, but had no physical relationship with him at all here on Earth. (It is important not to confuse a "sealing" with a physical marriage.) 2. Multiple women were Brigham Young's actual wife on earth. Unlike those just mentioned, Brigham was actually physically married to them and had children by them. 3. Emma did on occasion express jealousy of Joseph's kindnesses to other women and very negative feelings toward the revelation on plural marriage. All of these facts are true and not in dispute.

It is also clearly true that Joseph was "sealed" to Zina Huntington, but just as clearly false that he had any kind of physical relationship with her. Both their journals and histories make it abundantly clear that he was sealed to her to be his wife only in heaven after they both died, and no physical relationship between them ever existed.

It is clearly false that Joseph ever had a physical relationship with a previously-married woman. You say there were 13 such. I say there were zero. In each case I investigated there is no evidence of a physical relationship except by one or two people's testimony, typically decades after the fact and often second-hand. I looked into each case and concluded that the relevant testimony was impeached by the character of either the witness or the reporter, as evidenced by their past and/or subsequent actions. In particular there is no DNA evidence, and it would be easy to prove descendants of Joseph by these other women if there were any.

It appears to me to be probably false that Joseph Smith ever married or had a physical relationship with Fanny Alger. Neither Oliver nor Emma, nor anyone else ever claimed to have witnessed anything physical between them, nor did Joseph or Fanny ever say anything to lead one to believe there was a relationship beyond simple kindness. The circumstances cited were far from convincing, and Joseph flatly denied it. If you believe Joseph was a liar, then sure, he could have lied about this. I believe he was a honest man. As an honest man myself I know I would admit to such a thing if I had done it. Joseph was not shy about admitting his weaknesses.

I feel it is a toss-up whether Joseph ever actually had a physical on-earth marriage-like relationship with anyone except his wife Emma. I see reasonable evidence on both sides of this question. Certainly he had no children by other women, as would have happened if he had sex with as many women as claimed. There are also several events that strongly support the idea of his complete fidelity to Emma that would seem to be very reliable by their context and the subsequent lives of their testifiers (for example Heber C Kimball's biographical account of the test Joseph gave him and his wife Vilate). On the other hand, a few of the stories of him marrying other single ladies do seem credible and it was not against his religion to do so if Emma approved.

I think it is almost certain that Zina Huntington and Henry Jacobs got formally divorced before she married Brigham Young, but they may have merely concluded that the new marriage canceled the old one. In either case there is no evidence from any of the three of them that any of them considered her to be married to both Brigham and Henry at the same time. That claim was made many years later by an enemy of the church but never substantiated.


Now to address your specific issues:

* It is quite certain that Joseph nor Brigham ever married anyone who was not single, so the 10 commandments' injunction against adultery does not apply.

* There is no conflict with D&C 132 when Brigham married widows and divorced women. You are misreading it. It addresses only the case where the plural wife is a virgin and says nothing whatever about marrying windows or divorcees.

* Illinois had a law against Bigamy, but I suspect Brigham considered such laws unconstitutional. Certainly later church leaders did: They took the issue to the supreme court and would not have done so had they not believed they might win.

* I hope it is clearly understood by all that Joseph broke no law with his "sealings" meaning marriage in heaven only. The law of the land is perfectly silent on people being married in heaven if they are not married on Earth. ;-)


How will you send me my $100?

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You do realize that it was very rare for any woman living back then to openly talk about their sex lives so it is no wonder you won't find many accounts. It's a miracle we have what we have today.

Young, Taylor, Woodruff, and others had sex with their wives, why is it so hard to say Smith did also? Good grief Joseph Smith is almost untouchable when talking about this subject.

Also, you think the affair with Fanny Alger didn't happen? Oliver Cowdery said it was a "dirty, nasty, filthy, affair." After all he is a Book of Mormon witness that we find credible. Do we only find his word credible when it makes the church look good? Also Smith blatantly admitted to a relationship but wanted for the record that it wasn't adulterous. Fanny when asked about it said it was a matter between her and a Joseph. It might be time to take your head out of the sand.

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Show me where you find differentiation between a sealing and a marriage? Being sealed to someone is being married to them. Today in the US Mormon couples are sealed together and do have sex. So you are claiming these dealings happened but there was no earthly relationship???

So explain why Helen Mar Kimball was no longer allowed to go to dances? No longer allowed to mix with boys? Because she was MARRIED to Joseph Smith. This is also why Emma Smith threw Fanny Alger down the stairs and why Oliver Cowdrey described seeing Smith and Alger in the barn as a 'dirty nasty little affair'.

LDS Doctrine (D&C 121) makes it clear that plural marriage exists for one purpose - to raise seed unto the lord. It specifically refers to procreation.

The we hit the situation with the 11 married wives. Today, if a Bishop met secretly with a mans wife and asked her to marry him but not to tell her husband or his wife, we'd have the basis of adultery. Yet somehow Latter-day saints want to give Smith a pass on this??

Meet the Mormon's is a dishonest movie. It attempt to portray Mormonism as an 'All American' family faith. The reality is, Mormonism isn't. Mormonism is based on a movement towards the end of democracy and the implementation of an LDS led Theocracy. One only has to look at the Utah liquor laws to see that clearly. LDS doctrines are imposed via Utah laws on non mormons. Where is the 'free agency' in that?

Joseph also lied about these relationships over a period of about ten years. He lied from the stand and he lied in print. Is that covered in 'Meet the Mormon's'? No it isn't, hence my contention that this movie is propaganda, it attempts to portray a wholly false version of what Mormonism is. When the reality is, that Mormonism is a fundamentalist, biblical literalist religion that requires members either accept or turn a blind eye to the idea and doctrine that God the father had actual sex with Mary, that Men after this life become Gods and live in polygamous and polyandrous relationships, and that paying 10% of your income to the LDS church for life is a prerequisite to get into Mormon heaven.

Meet the Mormons is in effect a giant advert for Mormonism, but one that does not disclose the actual history or beliefs of Mormonism. The exact same thing could be achieved by the KKK if they shot soft focus footage and never disclosed they had a long history of racial hatred etc, but attempted to pretend they were an all american, home grown social movement big on families.

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Look up your ass, where you head is.

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Right, you're dishonest if you call yourself Mormon and you can't reconcile your own scriptures with the behavior of the man who wrote them.

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I really don't want to burst anyones bubble here (being a non-mormon living in Utah) but by doing research on the internet, and in a book I have come to know and is even at Desert Book ,which I will give the title to, I have learned the Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by putting a rock in a top hat and sticking his head in it. No one saw any evidence of the stone doing anything to translate the Book of Mormon.

The title of the book is called Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. I encourage everyone to check it out to familiarize themselves with Joseph Smith

https://deseretbook.com/products/joseph-smith-rough-stone-rolling-richard-l-bushman-5351


I wanted to do it in style.

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Two years later...who got the cash? Or you just an anti-Mormon L I A R?

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Can you tell me if any of the following are lies?

1. Joseph Smith was married to at least 34 women.

2. Joseph Smith placed a rock he found digging a well into a hat and placed his face over the opening into the hat. The rock revealed the words of the Book of Mormon, Joseph sounded them out to his scribe.

3. Elephants existed in the Americas circa 2000 years ago.

4. The Nauvoo expositor printed lies about Joseph Smith by claiming he was secretly teaching plural marriage.

5. That the facsimiles in LDS scriptures (part of the Pearl of Great price) can be translated into English today and are nothing more than the finery texts of the son of the Governor of Thebes written 1500 years after the time of Abraham.

i'll happily discuss what is not included in the script of 'Meet the Mormon's'. As noted above i feel this 'movie' is really a propaganda advert but fails to disclose the factual information required of most adverts about its actual history.

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