MovieChat Forums > Im Labyrinth des Schweigens (2014) Discussion > Legal knowledge of Johann Radmann

Legal knowledge of Johann Radmann


Very good film overall.
I find it strange, however, that the criteria to differentiate the various levels of responsibility are never discussed.
Why does Staatsanwalt Radmann consistently considers all nazis and soldiers as culprits ? It is obvious that most of the population of Germany was only a remote accomplice to the actions of the Wehrmacht, the Gestapo or the SS, to the extent they did not say "No !" to them, but on the other hand they did not now much about them, and could not be expected to oppose a system which had provided them with economic well being and national pride.
Amongst those who knew (and this was a small minority in Germany), they were soldiers, such as Hauptstaatsanwalt Haller, who never committed atrocities. He commanded a submarine and probably killed many enemy soldiers, as his job commanded, but he probably never acted outside the "laws of war". The occupied French population knew very well the difference between the Wehrmacht and the SS or the Gestapo !
So even within the great mass of soldiers and army officers who killed other soldiers obeying orders (this was war after all), very few committed war crimes as was the case in Auschwitz and the other concentration camps. The 8000 involved at Auschwitz, plus the others involved at other camps, were on the other hand not all guilty, a the trials later demonstrated. So I find it strange that Radmann ignored these differences all together and was so devastated to hear his father was a registered nazi. That did not make him a war criminal, and Radmann of all persons should have known the difference. Plus his boss (Fritz Bauer) repeatedly put him back on the right track. I understand the need for absolute and non negotiable values that haunted the dreams of a young German in the 50'S, but as a jurist Radmann should have been able to quickly gather his wits and his law lessons, and put things in perspective. The film was more dramatic because of this choice by the author, but it would also have benefitted from a clear description of these issues, which were the central focus of the Auschwitz trials in Frankfurt. In particular, there was a golden opportunity (missed) to discuss this when Haller tells Radmann that he was a submarine commander, but not registered as a nazi. Radmann should have replied to him that this dis not make him a war criminal, nor a common criminal. I was waiting for such a reply, also when he discovers Gnielka's role in Auschwitz. The line never came, which makes Radmann a potentially dangerous jurist.

Another aspect I had difficulty with was the silence supposedly kept by all knowledgeable people. I spent some holidays in Germany back then, in 58, 60, 61, 62 and 63, and never got the impression that people did not know or did not speak about the atrocities committed by the SS and the Gestapo. No one I met made a secret of their possible involvement in the war (although as a Frenchman I tended to avoid the subject out of courtesy for my hosts). Clearly there were ex nazi networks at play, but the total silence described in the film ???

Of course we all get the benefit of a sort of hindsight, with many reconciliation strategies used later in South Africa, and other places, so the benefits of openness appeared clearly. But to me the unwillingness to face the dark aspects of the war was not such as widespread matter in Germany as described in the film.

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Maybe Radman's mentality and actions in the movie were somewhat dramatized in order to bring some sort of suspense to what would otherwise have been an important, but probably very dull legal story.

For instance I'm sure it's very noticeable how the arrests were carried out. No chases, no shoot-outs, no fighting, nothing dramatic at all. A prosecutor and a few policemen show up and that's that. Not the stuff of drama, but evidently true.

So perhaps another sort of more personalized mental drama was needed in order to make the story gripping and entertaining in at least a moralistic manner.

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Because public knowledge of Auschwitz was hazy at best in late '50s Germany, Radmann's stance as to who was to be considered a suspect in the murders there was correct, i.e., anyone involved is automatically a suspect.

Why was public knowledge hazy in Germany in the late '50? IDK, perhaps a national case of denial.

~~Bayowolf
There's a difference between being frank... and being dick.

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[deleted]

So sick and tired of Nazi flicks! At this point I don't longer BELIEVE Hollywood's PROPAGANDA of WWII!

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edisonoside2004,

you should be embarrassed and ashamed for writing that ignorant one-liner.

(And to be technical, this is not even a Hollywood movie.)

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Did someone make you watch this Edison? But worry not ... for you we have Guardians of the Galaxy and another Bridgette Jones chapter.

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Why does Radmann consistently consider all nazis and soldiers as culprits? They did not now much about them and could not be expected to oppose a system which had provided them with economic well being and national pride


Sorry I'm replying a little late responding, but your thoughts ran through my mind also. After the war, Nazi party members did not talk to their children about it. They were raised under the cone of silence and grew into adults who had to find out. Remember the journalist asks all those young people if they ever heard of Auschwitz and none of them had? You and I know everything after decades of coverage. Radmann had to listen to one horror story after another in those pre-trial depositions. It was a learning curve for him to figure out there were varying degrees of culpability. Some were outright war criminals, some following orders and many afraid youngsters, like his journalist friend.

Another aspect I had difficulty with was the silence supposedly kept by all knowledgeable people. I spent some holidays in Germany back then, in 58, 60, 61, 62 and 63, and never got the impression that people did not know or did not speak about the atrocities committed by the SS and the Gestapo.

To me the unwillingness to face the dark aspects of the war was not such as widespread matter in Germany as described in the film.


During your vacation in Germany, you likely did not speak with many civil servants. The movie is about the high number of ex Nazi's employed as public servants. They retained positions they had before the war. This made public accountability difficult, until journalists and a few brave prosecutors bust the whole thing open. I agree many German people acknowledged and felt shame about the wrong their country perpetrated. And after the 1968 Frankfurt trial, the individual conscience grew to become a collective conscience.

I really appreciate this film since it's an important angle.

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Dear Doodlebuger,

You are one of a kind!

It has been a long while since I read such an intelligent post here.

Of course it has do to with your age, as you are at least 60 (I would say you are 75 or so).

If possible, I would like you to say more about this:

The occupied French population knew very well the difference between the Wehrmacht and the SS or the Gestapo


Because I saw a Polish movie, I guess the name was Rose, and there was a scene where a polish said they missed the Germans and their humanity (they were occupied by the Russians then)

So I find it kind of a paradox, the guys who did such terrible things being "missed" by some, and considered "not so bad" by others.

Again, congratulations for your post.



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Thanks for the kind words, I am flattered.
Note I am not 75 but just turned 70 (not much difference there !). Except I did not fight in Algeria (too young) where the French soldiers (drafted) had to behave the same way as the German troops in France. Here too there were the fanatics, war criminals (still active today, see Mr Le Pen and his friend General Aussaresses who taught the Argentines how to torture) and the others, who just had no choice but to follow orders. I guess it was the same story in Vietnam.
This gives a perspective on armies and how they behave. I am still puzzled by the movie's insistence that Germans did not know anything. French people knew vey well what was going on in Algeria during the wr there. Distinguishing ordinary soldiers from war criminals was the central issue of the trials which took place at the time (1958-1961), and the movie misses that debate almost entirely. Pity because it was otherwise a great movie.

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You most welcome!

I totally agree with you here

I am still puzzled by the movie's insistence that Germans did not know anything


and it gets worse!

the journalist asked literated people, who lived in a big city, and worked in a courthouse, so they at the very least had a high school diploma. And, still, they knew nothing about.

One could argue, they knew but did not want to talk about, and the movie original title is "silence" not "lies"

Maybe, after all, that is the point, the silence, not the pretense "ignorance"

Take care my friend!

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Certainly there was a very significant element of illogical denial AKA as selective memory.

I think this film addresses a fascinating subject that very few have approached before. 8/10!

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[deleted]

A :Haller was a fiction. There was no opposition in the actual courthouse as depicted in the movie.
B: Franz Bauer says it: the trial is not about deciding who is guilty, half guilty, a quarter guilty. It is about the victims and their stories.
Which is very surprising when in some countries (actually mine) the first thing told in law university is : justice is not about victims.
That movie says what justice cannot, actually.

Manelle
"to tax and to please, no more to love and to be wise, is not given to men"

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Really. The people who were tortured to death, burned in churches, children included, gunned down in lines shall appreciate. (I would not provide references for this. There is no better truth that the one one come to by one's self. )
This reads like what Johannes's mother says to him, BTW.


Manelle
"to tax and to please, no more to love and to be wise, is not given to men"

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