[deleted]
that would suck, and her name is MaRey Sue...but if they rehash the OT correctly Luke would only die in IX, like Yoda in VI.
🐾Dictated but not read 🐾
no he dies now, its cheaper that way. might come back as a ghost in ep9 though but without speaking words.
https://youtu.be/93sGUFpVxFI
Why does everyone keep calling her Mary Sue? What does that refer to ?
Better three hours too soon than a minute too late.- William Shakespeare
They don't like the idea that she learns incredible abilities with little to no training....
Perpetual outrage is the most popular religion today.
That really didn't answer my question.
Better three hours too soon than a minute too late.- William Shakespeare
http://bfy.tw/3QWC
Perpetual outrage is the most popular religion today.
I make a habit of not clicking links, but I Googled it.
Bella Swan, Hermione Granger, the girl from Avatar, Rose from Titanic, and now Rey. All Mary Sues. I get it now. You learn something knew every day.
Better three hours too soon than a minute too late.- William Shakespeare
Hermione Granger
She was included on the list with the others. I didn't make the list.
Better three hours too soon than a minute too late.- William Shakespeare
Awesome link!
shareThey don't like the idea that she learns incredible abilities with little to no training....
Yeah that's why he beat Vader so easily the first time they fought without getting injured at all and then saved his friends before anything bad could happen to them.
shareLuke also saves Obi-Wan's life and then uses the force to manipulate the stormtroopers in Mos Eisley despite not even knowing what the force was. Later, he saves Obi-Wan's life again at the cantina, fixes Han Solo's ship, flies it better than Han ever did and takes the pilot's seat next to Han while Chewie just vanishes from the film. In the final battle, like you said, he beats the crap out of Darth Vader and then rescues Han from a certain death.
That Luke guy is so a Mary Sue.
Luke saved the galaxy using the Force, with little training.
shareHe spent three entire movies completing his training and failed at times. He went through many hardships and made mistakes along the way. Rey is magically better than everyone at everything and knows how to do things she didn't even know existed until recently.
shareLet's not compare Luke's entire trilogy with Rey's only movie. Luke in ANH was just as Mary Sue as Rey, if not more. At the beginning of ANH, Luke is just a whiny teenage farm boy. A few minutes of training with the Force and he uses it to save the galaxy. No fighter pilot experience, yet he's better than all those other pilot with years of experience.
share>Luke in ANH was just as Mary Sue as Rey, if not more.
No, simpleton, Luke was the complete opposite of a Mary Sue. He gets his ass kicked twice in Star Wars, needing Kenobi to save him both times (unlike Mary Sue Rey, a little girl who magically fights like Chuck Norris, beating up multiple grown men at once, with ease [LOL!]). He almost gets his ass kicked again by Chewbacca, because Chewbacca doesn't like/trust him (unlike a Mary Sue, who is loved by everyone). Han Solo smacks Luke's hand as though he's a little kid, when he points at once of the controls on the Millennium Falcon, because he doesn't like Luke much either for much of the movie. Leia makes fun of Luke being short. Luke is whiny, which is a character flaw. Luke didn't accomplish anything in Star Wars without help.
>At the beginning of ANH, Luke is just a whiny teenage farm boy. A few minutes of training with the Force and he uses it to save the galaxy.
No, he did something comparable to something he'd already had experience doing:
Wedge: That's impossible! Even for a computer.
Luke: It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters.
The force helped him slightly refine a skill he already had; it didn't give him a brand new skill from scratch. Also, he had to be told, TWICE, to use the force, by Kenobi's ghost. Left to his own devices he presumably would have failed, because he was determined to use the targeting computer.
>No fighter pilot experience, yet he's better than all those other pilot with years of experience.
Biggs: Sir, Luke is the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim Territories.
Biggs vouched for Luke, which means Biggs knew that Luke's existing piloting experience (in a T-16) was applicable to piloting an X-wing. Also, he's not better than anyone. He almost crashes ("I got a little cooked but I'm okay"), and is about a millisecond away from being blown up by Vader until Han saves his ass.
ruby is the reason these boards are shutting down ... what will all he sjw's do now?
shareWhy does everyone keep calling her Mary Sue? What does that refer to ?
I´m sorry, I didn't know Star Wars had an awesome female protagonist. I thought Jyn died.
shareI, for one, applaud them for creating strong female characters. I like that girls like my daughter can look up to someone inspirational.
shareI, for one, applaud them for creating strong female characters. I like that girls like my daughter can look up to someone inspirational.
Too bad the female lead wasn't allowed to be flawed or vulnerable at all like male heroes are, if she was ever less than perfect or not better than someone at something then she wouldn't be a good role model for little girls apparently
shareYeah right....They don't like a poorly written character. That's it, really.
Kind of dumb, aren't you?
Yeah right....They don't like a poorly written character. That's it, really.
Kind of dumb, aren't you?
It's pretty flipping sad that it's so obvious. The fact that they still use the phrase Mary Sue is a blatant hint that it has everything to do with gender.
shareOr it's another clue as to your blatant ignorance and lack of education. Inform yourself before defaming, it makes you seem foolish. I let a woman explain to you what MS writing is (see also a methodical prove below). Pretty sure next time I see you post on the subject you will be as ignorant and uneducated as demonstrated here, why may that be? 😉
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSdf4kMvSyA
de gustibus non est disputandum
I'm well aware of the origins of the phrase, thank you very much. I also know that when it is used in most modern settings, it's not by women. It's become a catch all for men to use because they feel threatened by strong, female characters. But if it makes you feel better to insult my intelligence, feel free.
shareYep, it is men using the Mary Sue term. No surprise there.
shareWell, may I be the exception, and be a man who refuses to allow conservative prejudices into my head.
sharePull your head out of the sand and ask yourself why Jyn isn't getting the same Mary Sue treatment as Rey despite being another Star Wars female protagonist.
Why Star Wars: The Force Awakens' a poorly-made film: https://youtu.be/8g9cJ5WKZeU
Women are using the same term. Rey is a female character, hence why she is labeled a Mary-Sue. A male version would be a Marty-Stu. Anakin in episode 1 is a Marty-Stu.
shareIt's pretty flipping sad that it's so obvious. The fact that they still use the phrase Mary Sue is a blatant hint that it has everything to do with gender.
Luke has the skills to take on the death star. Rey does not have the skills to beat kylo ren.
"Not all change is progress, as not all movement is forward."
I think it was a matter of Kylo really having the skills not only to kill Rey, but to do it without breaking a sweat. They (Abrams) made him look incompetent, like a fool and a rookie, despite having habilities we´ve never seen before.
But hey, Rey had to win to complete the circle as a full Mary Sue.
Kylo Ren was injured and bleeding. And he wasn't trying to kill her, just seduce her to the Dark Side.
From the book (After killing Han):
Stunned by his own action, Kylo Ren fell to his knees. Following through on the act ought to have made him stronger, a part of him believed. Instead, he found himself weakened.
Vader didn't lose in ANH. Like you said, he was surprised by the MF so Luke could hit the winning shot. But let's suppose Vader lost. It wasn't Luke who defeated him, was it? No, it was Han.
And so what if Kylo was injured? During the fight at Cloud City, Vader was injured too and he still kicked Luke's ass and cut off his hand. So yes, Rey defeated the big bad guy in her first try. But what did you expect? Rey had already best him at the Force when he captured her, despite her not even knowing what the Force was.
Mary Sue all the way.
Kylo Ren is no Vader, the movie made that perfectly clear. Kylo Ren didn't start training until he was about 23, and he hadn't even finished his training. And yes, he was badly injured and bleeding. Plus, he was weakened by killing Han.
Rey knew what the Force was.
Kylo Ren was injured and bleeding.
Kylo Ren didn't see that blast shot coming at all. He should've been knocked clear off the bridge.
Why Star Wars: The Force Awakens' a poorly-made film: https://youtu.be/8g9cJ5WKZeU
He should've been knocked clear off the bridge
And Luke having the skills to destroy the Death Star doesn't make him a Mary Sue?
shareAgain, no. I don't know if you've read it, but this will explain you in detail:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2488496/board/nest/252049846
Being a Mary Sue goes well beyond destroying the Death Star, the only "marysue-ish" thing Luke did throughout ANH.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities, sometimes with the intent to inspire young or marginalized people and show them that even they can have as great of a potential as leading characters. Often this character is recognized as an author insert or wish-fulfillment.[1] Sometimes the name is reserved only for women, and male Sues are called "Larry Stus," "Gary Stus," or "Marty Stus"; but more often the name is used for both sexes.[2][3]
What the hell are you talking about? Your beloved Rey did save the day. From the moment BB-8 appears, the whole point of the movie was to find Luke. Which she did, even though she shouldn't had been chosen for it.
low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities
Rey had much less to do with the destruction of Starkiller Base than Han, Chewie, Finn, Poe, and Leia. Yes, she got to beat the injured and bleeding villain in training, but she wasn't the main hero of her movie like Luke was of ANH. Luke was a whiny teenage farm boy one week and savior of the galaxy the next. So it's ridiculous that you manbabies cry about what Rey does. If Rey beating Kylo Ren left you manbabies feeling emasculated, too bad.
shareAgain with your childish behavior. You don't like facts, so all you can say is "manbabies! Bwaaaaaahh!"
Like every feminist, you're so predictable and boring.
Weren't you part of the manbaby outcry when it was announced R1 had a female as its main protagonist? Yes, I remember that, all hell broke loose. Would not have happened if Star Wars had no sexist fans. Neither would all the bitching about feminism.
shareNo, I wasn't. I was concerned that Jyn turned out as flat and boring as Rey is, that is all. Luckily, she turned out great. Too bad she died, because the franchise would be a thousand times better with Jyn taking Rey's place.
shareCan't have a girl be on par with Luke.
share oh poor Ruby, problem is exactely that Rey is NOT on par with Luke, or subject to the same limitations all the character before her were!
Rey without training from the get go rivals Luke development at the end of Jedi. And her Force and other super-skills she uses to best everybody are just the beginning. Worst thing about her is that she is constantly loved, hugged, endorsed by every character she meets or even endlessly fascinates the villains, so that everybody becomes her cheerleader. Even her little conflicts of intersts dissapear at a writer's whim.- all telltale signs and pillars of MS writing.
You can deny it all you want, but you are the ignorant flat-earth minority with this. People are not that foolish. Rey is for action heroes what Jar Jar means for comedy characters, but alas she is a lead.
🐾Dictated but not read 🐾
Poor Tristan, so jealous of a fictional character.
shareI have that little creeper on ignore, he's still bummed that this film performed well both critically and financially.
shareI have that little creeper on ignore, he's still bummed that this film performed well both critically and financially.
Yes, haters would love to see Disney Star Wars fail, but so far they've been disappointed.eh, what are you talking about? I (over-)rated R1 8/10, and I like Rebels (7/10). I love all SW movies, except VII which is a mere commercial fanfic rehash, not a proper SW film. But thanks that you did not insult my mother this time, and did not lapse into a barrage of lowbrow southern beeps.
Of course I can. And that girl was Jyn. She had the charisma and the strenght without Rey's unlikability and bitchiness. Sorry If that upsets you.
shareAnd yet I'm seeing Rey's picture on products, kinda like she's popular. Sorry if that bothers you.
shareI'm seeing Rey's picture on products, kinda like she's popular'member back TPM Ruby: Jar Jar Binks was on literally everything, like masks, appareil, toys and vid games were sold like crazy. Hell I still even see a lot of peole using Gungan avatars speaking their language. Kids still luv the hell out of him.
conceived to pander to 8-12 year old girls that usually dig Disney princesses.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2488496/ratings?ref_=tt_ov_rt
Males overall gave TFA an 8.1
Males under 18: 8.6
Males 18-29: 8.2
Males 30-44: 8.0
Males 45+: 7.9
Don't kid yourself, it isn't just females who love Rey. And over 400,000 males voted.
oh my poor Ruby, are you Texan sharpshooting again from SC by randomly projecting some data on Rey? Ok, let me do the same: I say without Rey the ratings for TFA would be a lot higher, and TFA instead of constantly dropping would be in the Top 15. It's all because of Rey that such big a generational event-film that features the return of Han, Leia, Luke, Chewie, Falcon etc is so lowly ranked at 198 and dropping.
No, but seriously, TFA is of course an abomination per se: Marey Sue is just the tip of the $hitberg and just a contributor to the poodoo.
🐾Dictated but not read 🐾
Funny how I'm starting to see more and more Rey merchandise.
sharestarting to see things is usually not a good sign, Ruby. We all chose to see what we want, but if its down to "I see dead Sues", it may be time to have that checked.
🐾Dictated but not read 🐾
Actually, seeing a character's merchandise is a good sign that they're popular.
shareThere was tons of Jar Jar merchandise (dolls, figure, cups, games, T Shirts, stickers etc), kids ate it up.
As for Rey, Jar Jar (Abrams) complained about her underrepresented (and even left out) in merchandize several times; he said it's "... preposterous and wrong that the main character of the movie is not well represented in what is clearly a huge piece of the ‘Star Wars’ world in terms of merchandising”.
🐾Dictated but not read 🐾
Congratulations, you've made a verdict on a protagonist who's only been in one movie, and we have yet to see her full development. I guess nerds like yourself have nothing else better to do than to still fixate over this movie like a voyeur.
shareIt's pretty flipping sad that it's so obvious. The fact that they still use the phrase Mary Sue is a blatant hint that it has everything to do with gender.
They can't stand that the new Star Wars has an awesome female protagonist, and not a white male one.
The article mentions an interesting note on how respect for their own culture could have gotten in the way of making a "better" movie.
"If you asked a Chinese to make this movie, the panda needs to be lovable but in a perfect sense... In the end, he would be so perfect he would be unlovable."
Rey is not perfect, so what are you talking about?
shareWhy does everyone keep calling her Mary Sue? What does that refer to ?MS writing is the hallmark of bad, amateurish character writing. Rey is a character as if written by a narcissistic 12 year old: She can do everything, is loved and admired by everybody and immediately better at everything: she ends up captain of the coolest ship, with Luke/Anakin's saber, Han's blaster and R2 and Chewie as her sidekick cheerleaders.
"Spotlight stealing": Rey is instantly loved, admired and desired by everybody including her enemies (BB-8, Finn, Han, Chewie, Kylo Ren, Snoke etc), even when this compromises story logic and character backgrounds. Some examples:
-Leia passionately hugs the complete stranger Rey after the death of Han (and supposed death of her son at Rey’s hand) while old friends Chewie and Leia completely ignore each other. This is classic Sue writing: only the Sue’s POV and glorification counts, the fact that Leia and Chewie are old friends and the emotional link to dead Han, and have always hugged before (Han's carbonite scene etc) is irrelevant;
- Rey takes-over the captain and piloting position on the MF after Han dies (she sits in the pilot seat) – Chewie the 600y Wookie remains the copilot on his own ship of a 19y old woman they just met a few hours before (Sues start at the top);
- Rey the lowly scavenger is sent on the most important Resistance mission to find Luke - but not his sister Leia (who “desperately” was looking for him) or other resistance fighters who know Luke! Rey walks up the island, Luke’s old friends Chewie and R2-D2 mysteriously stay back waiting with the ship (Sue is center). The mission was to bring Luke back, not to send him somebody who he can train there on the island.
- debatable: Kylo removes helmet before Rey, though from the narrative POV it would have made sense that he only shows his face to Han (Sue is center);
- even light sabers and dead OLD MASTERS (Yoda, Obi Wan) call out to Rey, this never happened before with any other Jedi (even “Space Jesus” Anakin) - demonstrating how special Rey is.
"Better than You"/ "Copycat"-Sue: Rey regularly bests other character at their game, or rescues them and/or drains competence from them, thus compromising story and character backgrounds:
- The lifelong soldier Finn looks incompetent and foolish next to Rey (fighting, piloting, languages, Starkiller security and mechanical stuff), is physically beaten by her, and must be rescued by her many times.
- The main antagonist Kylo Ren, the 30 year old Master of the Ren (and Jedi killer), who is established as very powerful, is beaten, maimed and emasculated (broken saber) by Rey physically and on mind-level several times – all that despite of Rey having no proper Force or sword fighting training. He finally has to be rescued by a clumsy deus ex machina plot device (opening chasm) to be save from her.
- Rey constantly advises and bests Han (and Finn) with mechanical and engineering ingenuity regarding Han’s own ship, driving him to angrily leaving the cockpit ("Away Ball"), and resulting in him offering her a job quickly.
- Rey also replaces C-3PO as a translator, BB-8 seems completely useless because Rey does all the mechanics and engineering to repair and improve the falcon, and even hacks Starkiller!
“God Mode Sue” Rey has ad hoc abilities and powers, whenever the story needs her to look good, despite her story background of being a lowly, starving scavenger struggling to survive. Characters speak of her as if she was the second coming (Kylo: “She gets more powerful every moment”). Examples:
- Rey has sudden (pop-up) force abilities on Master-level (mind trick, telekinesis, mind reading) that took Luke and other Jedi several movies to learn.
- She has amazing stunt-piloting abilities with a bulky, unwieldy freighter (MF) and without a co-pilot (!) speeding and spinning thorough a graveyard and through a destroyer under heavy fire - without her having ever flown the MF before!,
-Rey has incredible aiming abilities, despite not having shot a blaster. She only misses one single shot, then blasts away all soldiers with one hit at a great distance.
-Rey can even hit with the Falcon turret even when she is not sitting on the turret gun, but piloting the freighter (“How did you do that ? I don’t know!”),
- Rey speaks all languages of the aliens she accidently meets, including "binary droidspeak" (it was establishes in the OT that humans can’t do that - Luke never could except with cockpit translator); she even speaks Wookie though Wookies are not space travelers/are not seen on Jakku.
- She is an ace engineer ("I bypassed the compressor") and rocket science mechanic;
- Rey even knows how to disable the security system on the Starkiller base (“The girl knows her stuff”).
- She is an incredible escape artist: she manages to escape the FO by using her ad hoc Jedi mind trick abilities, climbing and shooting skills.
- Rey despite her frail, half-starved condition is a master climber with great spelunking and stick fighting abilities.
- Despite being set up as a starving lowly scavenger woman, Rey has unblemished looks (typical Sue trait): she is the only young, beautiful woman around; she wears make up and lipstick and sports impressively white teeth and a posh theater accent despite of her background in poverty .
- Rey has a mysterious background, indicating she is very special.
de gustibus non est disputandum
Spot on. Also, in spanish REY means KING. So Rey is a king and not a queen.
shareRey is a character as if written by a narcissistic 12 year old: She can do everything, is loved and admired by everybody and immediately better at everything: she ends up captain of the coolest ship, with Luke/Anakin's saber, Han's blaster and R2 and Chewie as her sidekick cheerleaders.
"Spotlight stealing": Rey is instantly loved, admired and desired by everybody including her enemies (BB-8, Finn, Han, Chewie, Kylo Ren, Snoke etc), even when this compromises story logic and character backgrounds. Some examples:
-Leia passionately hugs the complete stranger Rey after the death of Han (and supposed death of her son at Rey’s hand) while old friends Chewie and Leia completely ignore each other. This is classic Sue writing: only the Sue’s POV and glorification counts, the fact that Leia and Chewie are old friends and the emotional link to dead Han, and have always hugged before (Han's carbonite scene etc) is irrelevant;
- Rey takes-over the captain and piloting position on the MF after Han dies (she sits in the pilot seat) – Chewie the 600y Wookie remains the copilot on his own ship of a 19y old woman they just met a few hours before (Sues start at the top);
- Rey the lowly scavenger is sent on the most important Resistance mission to find Luke - but not his sister Leia (who “desperately” was looking for him) or other resistance fighters who know Luke! Rey walks up the island, Luke’s old friends Chewie and R2-D2 mysteriously stay back waiting with the ship (Sue is center). The mission was to bring Luke back, not to send him somebody who he can train there on the island.
- debatable: Kylo removes helmet before Rey, though from the narrative POV it would have made sense that he only shows his face to Han (Sue is center);
- even light sabers and dead OLD MASTERS (Yoda, Obi Wan) call out to Rey, this never happened before with any other Jedi (even “Space Jesus” Anakin) - demonstrating how special Rey is.
"Better than You"/ "Copycat"-Sue: Rey regularly bests other character at their game, or rescues them and/or drains competence from them, thus compromising story and character backgrounds:
- The lifelong soldier Finn looks incompetent and foolish next to Rey (fighting, piloting, languages, Starkiller security and mechanical stuff), is physically beaten by her, and must be rescued by her many times.
- The main antagonist Kylo Ren, the 30 year old Master of the Ren (and Jedi killer), who is established as very powerful, is beaten, maimed and emasculated (broken saber) by Rey physically and on mind-level several times – all that despite of Rey having no proper Force or sword fighting training. He finally has to be rescued by a clumsy deus ex machina plot device (opening chasm) to be save from her.
- Rey constantly advises and bests Han (and Finn) with mechanical and engineering ingenuity regarding Han’s own ship, driving him to angrily leaving the cockpit ("Away Ball"), and resulting in him offering her a job quickly.
- Rey also replaces C-3PO as a translator, BB-8 seems completely useless because Rey does all the mechanics and engineering to repair and improve the falcon, and even hacks Starkiller!
“God Mode Sue” Rey has ad hoc abilities and powers, whenever the story needs her to look good, despite her story background of being a lowly, starving scavenger struggling to survive. Characters speak of her as if she was the second coming (Kylo: “She gets more powerful every moment”). Examples:
- Rey has sudden (pop-up) force abilities on Master-level (mind trick, telekinesis, mind reading) that took Luke and other Jedi several movies to learn.
- She has amazing stunt-piloting abilities with a bulky, unwieldy freighter (MF) and without a co-pilot (!) speeding and spinning thorough a graveyard and through a destroyer under heavy fire - without her having ever flown the MF before!,
-Rey has incredible aiming abilities, despite not having shot a blaster. She only misses one single shot, then blasts away all soldiers with one hit at a great distance.
-Rey can even hit with the Falcon turret even when she is not sitting on the turret gun, but piloting the freighter (“How did you do that ? I don’t know!”),
- Rey speaks all languages of the aliens she accidently meets, including "binary droidspeak" (it was establishes in the OT that humans can’t do that - Luke never could except with cockpit translator); she even speaks Wookie though Wookies are not space travelers/are not seen on Jakku.
- She is an ace engineer ("I bypassed the compressor") and rocket science mechanic;
- Rey even knows how to disable the security system on the Starkiller base (“The girl knows her stuff”).
- She is an incredible escape artist: she manages to escape the FO by using her ad hoc Jedi mind trick abilities, climbing and shooting skills.
- Rey despite her frail, half-starved condition is a master climber with great spelunking and stick fighting abilities.
- Despite being set up as a starving lowly scavenger woman, Rey has unblemished looks (typical Sue trait): she is the only young, beautiful woman around; she wears make up and lipstick and sports impressively white teeth and a posh theater accent despite of her background in poverty .
- Rey has a mysterious background, indicating she is very special.
Thanks Foe, Rey even states at one point "It was perfect" (her flying and mid air turret aiming), it's as if the writers were trying to make a tongue in cheek homage to MS writing.
de gustibus non est disputandum
I hate the idea that if I criticize Rey I'm somehow sexist. I'm passionate about movies, not gender. I don't care if Rey's a good role model or not I just want good characters in the Star Wars universe and this one was not. I didn't like Snap Wexley either but I wasn't constantly being told how great he is throughout the movie.
shareI'm female and I agree that Rey was very Mary Sue-ish character.
shareI'm female and I agree that Rey was very Mary Sue-ish character.
No, she was actually worse in this sense than both of them and by far.
Even little Ani who was "The Chosen One" in TPM didn't get the same Mary Sue-ish adoration as Rey. For example, Jedi didn't want Anakin, they were against him becoming Jedi, they were not hopping on "sure, he is so super awesome, let's give little Ani a place among Jedi or maybe even position in the Council asap" like it was going on with treatment Rey was getting. Only due to Qui Gon Jinn's tragic death Ani was allowed to join Jedi (cause it was Jinn's last wish) and even then Yoda made no secret that he still did not approve it and he was not fawning over Anakin.
It really speaks a lot about Rey as a character when even writing in TPM in this regard makes more sense than her entire image in TFA.
👆lo and behold dudes, rare species on these boards: actually understands what MS writing is about...
🐾Dictated but not read 🐾
Thanks. So many good points on why Rey turned out to be way too perfect
share[deleted]
You don't like her because she is a female Jedi.
I believe that we will find out that Rey is Luke's daughter.
(Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.)