MovieChat Forums > Underworld: Blood Wars (2017) Discussion > Same plot as the first one?

Same plot as the first one?

posted 8 years ago by majandralover30
14 replies | jump to latest

Is it just me or is there a recurring/recycled plot here? Except for Rise of the Lycans, the bad guy is always after the blood of the hero, in order to obtain something that is going to make them super god. In the original movie, Lucian was going to become super powerful and then attack the coven. Now it's marius. as long as we are on the subject, I personally don't like them making the bad guys sympathetic. It's so much fun to watch selene kill the monsters, but if you look back, the lycans seemed like the ones to root for. In rise of the lycans they were like Spartacus, and in the original, they were kind of like the underground rebels struggling desperately just to survive. Perhaps that is why I liked the prologue scene in evolution where the lycans are just zombies and you have to stop them. Pure black and white good vs evil. I wonder if there will be a twist in this one like in the first.

[–] RjanaR 8 years ago

I only find it extremely weird that it happens in every movie (except ROTL). The war went on for centuries without these shenanigans and neither species faced extinction (though not for lack of trying). Now every movie someone needs the blood of someone else for something. It's tiring really.

I don't think they make bad guys sympathetic. They give them motives that you might be able to empathize with, that's all. There are no good guys in these movies (again except ROTL, and red shirt characters). Just a bunch of bad guys shooting at each other.

[–] majandralover30 8 years ago

to a point I agree. but that was one thing about rotl I liked. there was an underdog to root for. whereas here i'm only rooting for kate because she's hot. I rooted for Lucian because he was good (in rotl atleast) but at this stage I just enjoy the fighting.

[–] RjanaR 8 years ago

I actually didn't mind not having any underdog to root for. In ROTL you had to root for the Lycans because...DUH. But in the first one there were no good guys. Just a bunch of bad guys with different motives. And I liked that actually. Because it breaks the stereotypical mold movies usually have. It's also why I didn't appreciate Awakening. The Lycans are the uber baddies all of a sudden and for no reason apparently. Since they set not just the vamps but their own kind up for extinction without any explanation why. That's so not how this verse works, at all. You literally had to root for Selene to take them down, even though she wasn't someone to root for in that movie.

[–] majandralover30 8 years ago

you know you have a good point. but it seems like you have to root for selene no matter what because she's the only main character any more. Atleast in the original you had characters in all of them that you could like or identify with.

[–] JJett131313 8 years ago

um, excuse me majandralover30, i most definitely cared about/identified with/empathized with lycan #8 in AWAKENING!!...........................(just kidding! ). :)

[–] RjanaR 8 years ago

I don't think you have to root for her if you don't want to. Certainly Selene being the only old school character left (all others being dead) and Kate looking sexy in leather means lots of people will root for her. But as we saw on the Awakening board, lots also thought she was a raving lunatic in that movie. I wanted to root for her (since I did root for her at the end of the first and all through the second movie) but her characterization was so off that I couldn't. I only rooted for her to take down Antigen not for her sake but for the sake of the innocent victims (like Eve or Sebastian's wife).

[–] JJett131313 8 years ago

RjanaR, how was Selene a raving lunatic in AWAKENING?

[–] RjanaR 8 years ago

You'd have to ask the people on the Awakening board. There was a giant thread called 'We are supposed to root for her?' or something like that. I thought her killing humans brutally (not when escaping Antigen) was psycho and absolutely goes against the Selene of movie 1 and 2. And that's not the only issue I have with Selene's characterization in Awakening.

[–] sakura_droplet 8 years ago

Circumstances had changed massively for Selene by that point, though. In the first two movies, the war between the vampires and lycans was secret (hence "Underworld") and humans were sometimes caught in the crossfire. Selene had no reason to kill humans, but then she's still a vampire. The vampires were fighting to save themselves and kill the lycans.

By the time we get to "Awakening", the existance of vampires and lycans has been exposed to the world and they are both being hunted down and exterminated by the humans i.e. humans are now their - her - enemy. Kill or be killed, or experimented on. If Selene had been set up as some sort of superhero type character, protecting the human race from the evil lycans or something, I'd agree that her actions in "Awakening" were odd. It creates an interesting dynamic for the audience because we're effectively rooting for a character who is not human, and more than okay with killing 'us' but I don't think it was out of character for her. The enemy just shifted from being lycans only to lycans and humans. Her entire race was in danger of being wiped out, she'd lost Michael because of the humans, and she was held captive for years and experimented on, again by the humans.

I've also never had much of an issue with the lycans generally always being the 'villains' of the series, because I can easily imagine their more beastly nature would lend itself to animalistic urges that could cause more trouble/destruction than the vampires would. Though that's not to say the vampires are all pure and innocent; they're also bad, just less so.

- Another textbook sociopath -

[–] RjanaR 8 years ago

If Selene had been set up as some sort of superhero type character, protecting the human race from the evil lycans or something, I'd agree that her actions in "Awakening" were odd.

But that is exactly the path they set her on in movies 1+2. Someone participating in genocide who learns they have been mislead and used. Who then, through an emotional connection (Micheal), finds enough courage to break free and go her own way, retaliating in return. And the second movie starts out as a survival race but ends with Selene getting a power up to stop 2 beasts who would wreak havoc on humanity. If Selene was not that hero (partially for humanity), why bother fighting Markus and William at the end. Because that was a true superhero thing. If Selene doesn't give a damn about humanity she would never have fought them.

Not that I want her to be a superhero. She fits best into the anti-hero category. But I can't deny the path they set her on in the first 2 movies.

It creates an interesting dynamic for the audience because we're effectively rooting for a character who is not human, and more than okay with killing 'us' but I don't think it was out of character for her. The enemy just shifted from being lycans only to lycans and humans. Her entire race was in danger of being wiped out, she'd lost Michael because of the humans, and she was held captive for years and experimented on, again by the humans.

I wasn't rooting for her. Because it's the same dynamic like in the first movie, only on a much bigger scale. The Lycans were the ones using humans to exterminate both Vampires and Lycans (those not belonging to their elite). How is that different from what Victor did with Selene? It's not. Maybe the humans were looking to fight someone besides themselves but that doesn't change the facts. And the Lycans were NEVER Selene's enemy. She considered them her enemy only because she thought they killed her family. Once she found the truth her stance seemed to have changed. After all she only killed the Lycans at the end of Evolution because they were sired by William and would be unable to change back to human form. Otherwise she would have let them live IMO. Of course that character development was for nothing since they decided to make the Lycans the uber baddies in Awakening.

Oh an since when has Selene cared about the Vampires ruling the world (as her end speech in Awakening suggests)? That was so off the charts OOC. She never cared about Vamp politics in that regard or who would rule who. All she cared about was killing members of a species she thought killed her family.

I've also never had much of an issue with the Lycans generally always being the 'villains' of the series, because I can easily imagine their more beastly nature would lend itself to animalistic urges that could cause more trouble/destruction than the vampires would. Though that's not to say the vampires are all pure and innocent; they're also bad, just less so.

But they never were the uber villains of the series until Awakening. Which is why I needed more from that movie in terms of an explanation. The only villain Lycans are those sired by William, the ones who stay beasts forever without humanity. Other than that Lycans were either the underdog (ROTL) or trying to fight for their survival while being hunted down by Vamps. The major villains for me were the Vamps, at least in the first 3 movies. Not saying the Lyans were innocents but at least they had motives more understandable than extermination, slavery, oppression and greed.

[–] sakura_droplet 8 years ago

I see what you're saying, but I don't agree.

If Selene was not that hero (partially for humanity), why bother fighting Markus and William at the end. Because that was a true superhero thing. If Selene doesn't give a damn about humanity she would never have fought them.

Although stopping them did us all a favour, how do we know she wouldn't have been under threat if she'd left them to their own devices and not confronted them? They might have come after her, so she'd still be fighting for her own survival, or have to go into hiding, or even kill herself. Markus attacked her numerous times, killed Michael, and it's not as if he made an offer to allow her to rule with him or something along those lines. If she hadn't stopped him, she might've been in trouble once he and Alexander assumed power. Maybe she wanted revenge? Maybe she felt eliminating another Elder (especially one so ruthless) would help diffuse the war, somehow, and allow her to back out with less risk?

Maybe the humans were looking to fight someone besides themselves but that doesn't change the facts. How is that different from what Victor did with Selene? It's not. And the Lycans were NEVER Selene's enemy. She considered them her enemy only because she thought they killed her family. Once she found the truth her stance seemed to have changed.

The humans were using lethal/martial law against her kind, though. Even if the situation was similar to her finding out the true reasons behind her position as a Death Dealer, how exactly is she supposed to deal with dozens (or likely more) human soldiers trying to exterminate her? Her plan to escape at the start of the film with Michael failed, then she lost him, was imprisoned for years, experimented on, etc. It's totally understandable she'd be pissed as hell once she woke up, and cared primarily for her own survival and finding Michael, and then of course Eve coming into the mix changed things even more. The humans were also a threat to her and Michael's offspring. I mean, sure, she could've used non-lethal force against any humans that attacked her, but being a superpowerful vampire who's been an assassin for centuries, I don't see her being lethal as strange or out of character.

I'd also argue that although Selene's vendetta against the lycans changed after she found out the truth, there's no way of knowing if they wouldn't still see her as a threat and come after her. After she's spent centuries killing their kind, would they be willing to hear her out and leave her alone? It's not an easy situation to back away from, even if she wanted to. There are a lot of variables to take into account.

After all she only killed the Lycans at the end of Evolution because they were sired by William and would be unable to change back to human form. Otherwise she would have let them live IMO.

They were trying to kill her, though. Why/how would she have let them live? "Hey, guys, no beef. I'm just gonna walk out of here and let you be, now, don't try to bite me, 'kay?" They turned, saw her, and attacked. Plus, as you say, these were lycans that could never revert back to human form so there's even less chance of her somehow being able to reason with them or stop them from killing her without killing/harming them.

Oh an since when has Selene cared about the Vampires ruling the world (as her end speech in Awakening suggests)? That was so off the charts OOC. She never cared about Vamp politics in that regard or who would rule who. All she cared about was killing members of a species she thought killed her family.

I think this is a matter of interpretation. She says "Though the world has changed, our enemy remains the same. The Lycans will rebuild. And will hunt for her father as they did for her. But as they grow stronger, so will we.
The Vampire coven will not only survive this world, we will reclaim it."

That line, to me, doesn't sound as if she wants vampires to 'rule the world.' 'Reclaim' suggests they were in that position of power before, and they weren't. They were hidden away from humans, just like the lycans, before they became public knowledge. Now, it's either her or them. Plus, again, the situation has changed dramatically: she is now under threat from humans and lycans, she now has a daughter who is also under threat, and she has to try and find Michael, who she believes will also be under threat. Fighting for her own survival, and the survival of her child and lover, who are all in danger from two enemies, one of which vastly outnumber her and her species. Why wouldn't she want to be on the 'winning' side when she has all that at stake?

I'm certainly not saying I think you're views are wrong, because they're perfectly valid interpretations, but I see Selene's character and motivations very differently. There are too many variables that could come into play.

- Another textbook sociopath -

[–] JJett131313 8 years ago

sakura, i agree that "The Vampire coven will not only survive this world, we will reclaim it" line didn't make me think it meant the vamps would rule the world (or try to rule the world).

[–] RjanaR 8 years ago

I meant the Underworld, obviously. And Selene has never shown an interest in that.

[–] RjanaR 8 years ago

Although stopping them did us all a favour, how do we know she wouldn't have been under threat if she'd left them to their own devices and not confronted them? They might have come after her, so she'd still be fighting for her own survival, or have to go into hiding, or even kill herself. Markus attacked her numerous times, killed Michael, and it's not as if he made an offer to allow her to rule with him or something along those lines.

Why would they hunt her specifically? Markus wanted only one thing from her and that was the location of his brother. Nothing more. He even said 'Dead or ALIVE, you will give me what I want.'. Also note that he didn't kill her after he got the info out of her, just let her drop into the water. IMO if Selene hadn't decided to go after them in the end they would have left her alone so long as she never bothered them again. Markus had every chance to kill her after all and he didn't.

If she hadn't stopped him, she might've been in trouble once he and Alexander assumed power. Maybe she wanted revenge? Maybe she felt eliminating another Elder (especially one so ruthless) would help diffuse the war, somehow, and allow her to back out with less risk?

I'm assuming you mean him and William, not Alexander. She wanted to stop Markus and prevent William from being released before Michael was killed. That's why they went to the docks to begin with. I'm sure after there was a revenge need added to it. But in order to stop William being released she'd have to go through Markus and she knew that. That was the only reason she fought him. Nothing to do with eliminating an Elder, diffusing the war or whatever. Her objective is crystal clear. Because it's said right there on screen.

'You know the devastation William caused before he was captured. He cannot be set free.'

The humans were using lethal/martial law against her kind, though. Even if the situation was similar to her finding out the true reasons behind her position as a Death Dealer, how exactly is she supposed to deal with dozens (or likely more) human soldiers trying to exterminate her?

And who told the humans what would work on Vampires and Lycans? Pretty sure it was Jacob, Antigen and so forth. Humans still outnumber V/L by billions. What better army could the Lycans have while at the same time working on making themselves invulnerable?

Also note that I said previously I have no issues with Selene defending herself, like when escaping from Antigen. She has the right to freedom after all. However dropping the doctor from his apartment...was that really necessary? I get he's partially responsible for her imprisonment and experimentation on her. But you'd think her own situation in the previous movies would have given her some perspective. Apparently not.

I'd also argue that although Selene's vendetta against the lycans changed after she found out the truth, there's no way of knowing if they wouldn't still see her as a threat and come after her. After she's spent centuries killing their kind, would they be willing to hear her out and leave her alone? It's not an easy situation to back away from, even if she wanted to. There are a lot of variables to take into account.

So what if they do see her as their enemy? Or go after her for revenge? IMO that's the price you pay when you commit genocide. She could have found out the truth much sooner if she bothered to think beyond her revenge for more than 5 minutes. A fine point Alexander Corvinus raised in their conversation. Because every Lycan she killed was innocent of the crime committed to her and her family.

They were trying to kill her, though. Why/how would she have let them live? "Hey, guys, no beef. I'm just gonna walk out of here and let you be, now, don't try to bite me, 'kay?" They turned, saw her, and attacked. Plus, as you say, these were lycans that could never revert back to human form so there's even less chance of her somehow being able to reason with them or stop them from killing her without killing/harming them.

They were only killing her because they were William sired Lycans. Any other Lycans can be talked to. And they might not have even transformed. I don't think it was a new moon and only old Lycans can change at will. William sired Lycans however stay in beast form all the time. They made a point of showing us Selene hesitating to kill them and then recalling what Tanis said about William sired Lycans. Only then did she actually raise a gun to kill them. You might want to watch Evolution again because just like the things with Markus/William from above, it's right there on the screen.

I think this is a matter of interpretation. She says "Though the world has changed, our enemy remains the same. The Lycans will rebuild. And will hunt for her father as they did for her. But as they grow stronger, so will we.
The Vampire coven will not only survive this world, we will reclaim it."

That line, to me, doesn't sound as if she wants vampires to 'rule the world.' 'Reclaim' suggests they were in that position of power before, and they weren't. They were hidden away from humans, just like the lycans, before they became public knowledge.

When I say 'rule the world' of course I mean the Underworld because isn't that what we are watching? If I meant ruling the world at large I would have said 'human world' or 'planet'. And what I said sill holds true. Selene never cared about the Vampire rar rar. Living by their rules (some of them anyway) sure. But she only cared about who is in power in terms of who is actually a warrior. Beyond that she didn't seem interested in the Vampire politics etc.