MovieChat Forums > Irrational Man (2015) Discussion > I think people might be missing the main...

I think people might be missing the main theme of this film


Most comments and reviews I have read about this film have spoken about the theme of morality, about how far a person is willing to go and still feel ok with themselves or about how the movie should have ended.

However, I think the main theme that Allen was commenting on was hypocrisy. Whether or not you agree with what Abe did, at least his actions were in line with his feelings and beliefs after hearing the conversation. However, Jill had the exact same feelings about wanting the judge to die, and when she found out he was dead, she even went so far as to celebrate it. But then when faced with the fact that Abe had caused the death, she suddenly changed her views and judged Abe, despite her original desire and relief for the judge to die. I think this is what Allen is making a comment on with the movie.

It is about the hypocrisy of people to think and want one way, but when it comes to their actions, act a completely different way.

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you have a very good point that is not exactly common for people to realise.

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If that is indeed his point (and I think that there's more to it, personally), then it's an ironically irrational one. I mean, we're talking about murder, here. Murder. That changes the game a wee bit, doesn't. Some other poster mentioned an "unpleasant situation." Well, sure but "murder" is a little more extreme than that.

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I hear you man. I've been trough that situation a few times when, for example, I was with a group of buddies(around 10) and an unpleasant situation appeared, and we said we cant let the things that way so we decided to take action, and when the moment came, only me and another one had the courage to voice our opinion, the rest run away and hides like mice. Another example is with good friend of mine, who almost all the time come to me with different proposal to change the things for better, and one time, we found ourself in an another unpleasant situation, and I said to him that together take action, and of course, all of the sudden he became "small" and I was left alone, by the same guy who had the voice of the men to do things, but when the moment came...he just "dissapeard".

The same with the girls value for honesty, they say they admire and value honesty/sincerity, but sometimes when you offer them that, and they dont like it, they turn their back and walk away. So much for repay you to show them honesty.

There's so much people who dont assume what a thing truly is, they only have an incomplete idea in their heads, shaped based on their preferences, and when the reality of that things present itself wholly, they have a crisis, a blockage and they try to suppress or deny you, or they run away.

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Women do value honesty, but after money, looks, generosity, humor, and sexual satisfaction.

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So, in other words, it's better to be consistent, no matter what our actions are? If we think the world should be better off certain people, we should kill them? Also, how is one deciding over another person's life can ever be justified? How about filtering your actions instead? Ideas and actions are two different things, if everyone acted on their feelings or in the heat of the moment, we would all face a truly miserable future. I think you all forget, that being a human also means, that we can change the course of our actions, once we realize they were wrong. Humans evolve, being a person is NEVER a consistent thing, whether you like it or not. Also, it's ALWAYS your actions that define who you are. At least here, on Earth. By committing certain acts, you shape your habitus and just like Abe in the movie, by committing murder one becomes a murderer. This film is about morality, in a sense of personal choice. In the beginning Abe quoted Kant's categoric imperative, but what they missed out on is that Kant also realized later, that the categoric imperative can't be applied to all cases in 'real' life; he concluded that it's only our will to do the right thing(=our individual sense of morality) can help us become moral beings. Yes, it's a grey area but what it really means, is that there are no certain guidelines on how to act and what is the right thing to do, everyone should work their on sense of morality and try to become better. In other words, Kant change his mind to, since he realized his initial theory can't fit all. Unlike Abe, Jill evolved in a sense that she began practising her own judgement over the situation. You can argue, that that's exactly what Abe did, using his own sense of morality but even if there can't be a universal guideline, there are certain acts that are essentially wrong and they don't even need proof. One of them is murder and especially a philosopher would definitely know better. That is the point when this movie becomes uncreditable, even if it meant to be sarcastic. Also, I doubt that Abe was using any sense of morality, when he was clearly aware of himself lying and deceiving others and on the top of that, he clearly enjoyed it all. He didn't show any remorse, not even about lying, let alone the murder. Now, how's is that possible, if the synopsis clearly suggested, that he was aware of such concepts and them being wrong? This movie failed has failed on so many level.

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I think there is a difference between changing your opinions or views due to new information, and your actions being hypocritical to your views (and vice versa).

Jill had the chance to change when she found out the judge was dead, but instead she celebrated it. Her views didn't change because she suddenly realised murder was wrong, but rather she couldn't back up her views with actions (or Abe's).

She wished death onto the judge, and then celebrated it when it happened. But when she found out Abe was the cause of the death, she suddenly judged Abe badly for it.

Again, I'm not saying what Abe did was moral or right, but Jill was definitely a hypocrite, which is reflective of modern society, where people are all talk and judgmental with their words, but when it comes to their actions, they are completely different.

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If you paid close attention, then you know, that she didn't think it was murder.. The news said it was a heart attack. Just because she didn't change in a moment that you'd find it reasonable, it doesn't mean that changing our views in general can't be a constructive thing. If we don't ever change, there's no place for better things. I guess we all wished harm during our lives on someone, who we thought committed a bad thing. It doesn't mean we were serious about it or that it's okay to actually kill someone, even if we think the world would be a better place without them. There are still many other factors to consider, such as, how would it affect our own morality and people related to that person. Jill eventually considered those things while Abe didn't. Also, if Woody wanted to show us, that Abe was right, then why did he kill him off at the end? In my view, Abe was someone who preached on things that he eventually failed to understand.
I understand your point about Jill, I just politely disagree. I think we can all get judgemental but it's our acts that matters afterall. In reality, Jill acted judgemental but she never cause harmed to others, while Abe did. I think (or at least I hope), that if you'd meet a case like this in real life, you wouldn't try to back up a guy like Abe. Serial killers are also consistent when it comes to their beliefs but do they do good to others? I also have my own prejudices but I don't act on them. I try to think first. I've seen judgemental people before but they were far more vicious, than Jill's character. If you're saying, that you've never wished harm upon someone (eg. a guy who shot his dog, someone who cheated on their spouse etc. etc. just think of any horrible stories on the news) on the level of thoughts, then I'll call that hypocrisy. I prefer people who can change cause being unable to do so means that you're somewhat on an extreme end.

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I know it's a complex issue and I agree, that to some extent we need to be consistent about our beliefs otherwise we'll fall into either a nihilist or a hedonistic pit. What I was really trying to say is, that change in our personality is inevitable and is not always a bad thing. People should come before ideas.

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its true that people should come before ideas but that is an ideal the fact is that moral people get killed all the time for a stupid idea . but why do we still think its so wrong when its the other way around? with the way things are in the world today surly you would agree that not all the people are worth more than a good idea

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Wasn't it Kant who argued that murder is justified for those who don't realize the importance of paragraphs?

-AnaElisa



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Have you actually read all of his writings? You're talking about what he said in the early period of his moral philosophy, which he continued to develop later.

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Sir, get a grip and re-read the comment you're answering to.

People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs

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(spoilers)
I agree with you in the sense that it's Jill who is the villain in this story-- because she walks away at the end, to a sunny life. A few ops on this board have said Jill was wonderful, but I think they're missing the intent of the movie.
What Abe did was to remove an apparently sociopathic judge who had a history of making life miserable for many people. So, using a painless poison, Abe does away with him. OK, it's murder, but it does benefit people. And yes--Jill hated the judge too. So Jill's tracking down and finding out that Abe was the killer was not meant to be a quest of decent morality--good over evil. No--I think Woody Allen meant for Joy to come cross as a shrill girl who demands that Abe turn himself in, to basically confess and end his life (or most of it)--she could've waited to see what would happen to the innocent party who the cops suspect. Instead she gives Abe this ultimatum.
Last point: Jill treated her boyfriend in a dishonest way, cheating on him and just ignoring his (reasonable) request to talk about the nature of their relationship. So--Jill walking away at the end, back into her boyfriend's arms, with Abe dead and Rita alone--I think that would make most sensitive, intelligent people sick. Which was Woody Allen's intention, imo.

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very well said, fully agree with you jill was the obvious villain of the story.

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I think it's partly about hypocrisy but not on Jill's end. Abe becomes a hypocrite at the end because instead of killing to be "just" with the judge, he tries to do a totally unjust thing by killing Jill just for his own self-benefit. As much as Abe tried to justify killing the judge as doing the right moral thing, it was a self-serving act all along, because doing it would make him feel excited about his life and be able to get it up

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I was going to comment on Abe's hypocrisy as well. I feel like his intentions in poisoning the judge were at least somewhat morally justifiable, or at least that he himself believed he was performing a justice. Where I see the moral shift, and the onset of his hypocrisy, is not quite when he decides to murder Jill, but when he decides not to take the blame after the innocent doctor was accused. I believe his plan never accounted for the chance that anybody would be falsely accused, and that once it actually happened, he didn't want to sacrifice his newfound well-being by willingly turning himself in, which, surely, if he'd heard/read about anyone else taking these actions, he would say that the right thing to do would be to give themselves up.

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Yes.






"Your mother puts license plates in your underwear? How do you sit?!"

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Allen isn't commenting on anything. Everything in your post should be credited Dostoyevsky.

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One thing you overlooked is, Jill really starts having a change of heart when an innocent man is accused of the crime. Surely, most people would feel the same way.



- A point in every direction is the same as no point at all.

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I loved that they referenced Dostoevsky and specifically Crime and Punishment. Halfway through the movie I started to get the feeling that it all felt too much like a Dostoevsky novella which made it a really amusing movie, in a good way, for me.

Isn't Woody Allen a big Dostoevsky fan? I took the movie as his sort homage to the Russian writer.

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Yep. Abe is definitely Raskolnikov in this. The murder victim was a morally questionable person in crime and punishment also. I just hope they would have trusted the viewer to make the connection from the first mention of Dostoevsky early on. It's unnecessary to dumb down in a movie like this by having Jill find a copy of crime and punishment on Abe:s desk.

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It reminds me of Native Son which is often philosophically discussed in many schools.

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No.

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