MovieChat Forums > Indian Summers (2015) Discussion > Quite enjoying seeing the Brits getting ...

Quite enjoying seeing the Brits getting whacked


Who among the Simla group now is left looking pretty good?

Only Ian Mcleod? Ralph has admirable political-social views, but unfortunately he does also have a past. Maybe, maybe he comes out on top but he's got a ton of woes now.

Who else looks nice?

British colonialism left certain good things behind but by 1918 the pluses had really come and gone.

Then the nasty stuff really began, as we are seeing here.

The Brits (and the French and Portuguese) would simply not go home, from India and the Middle East and Africa and the Caribbean and Hong Kong.

Look what happened then.

Eventually messy withdrawal and partition in India. People die.

Eventually the Maumau in Kenya and the messes in north Nigeria and south and west Sudan. People die.

Eventually "attitudes" in Jamaica, etc, which still persist. People die.

Default on the Balfour Declaration left Jews and Palestinians (and most Arabs) at one anothers throats. People die.

Default in Egypt led to the Moslem Brotherhood and Nasserism and the mess there now. People die.

Default in Algeria by the French led to bombs in France. They had other messy colonial disengagements too: Syria, Cameroun, Vietnam. People die.

Default by the Portuguese messed up Angola and Mozambique. People die.

Default by the Brits in Saudi led to the hard-line Wahhabists there, and Osama Bin Laden topping that. People (including here in NYC) die.

Default by the Brits in Iraq led very directly to the Baath Party in Iraq and so to Saddam Hussein and the mess there now. People die.

There are even more. So those whacks in this very welcome series are well deserved.

Did I leave any "good news" examples of the slow-motion forced end of colonialism out?!

if so they are small fry compared to the above list - which keeps the UN and countries like the US who played no part in the original cause trying retroactively to clean up.

And the whole world paying a big price.

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You're right. Most of the trouble spots in the world have English finger prints on them. And I love Britain but the truth is the truth.

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Hi CitizenCairParavel

Yes, the empire in latter days was certainly no Narnia :-)

Your Gladstone & Disraeli comment elsewhere "many Brits were appalled at the way the Brit govt treated the Indians" was a fair one. As you surely know, Lawrence of Arabia saw his life shortened through disillusionment.

To Britain, France and Portugal we should perhaps add Belgium (Congo) and Italy (Libya) which also left behind deadly hotspots.

Regarding the procrastination that went on between the Balfour Declaration and the Holocaust, it is said that in face of the rise of the German, Italian and Japanese attempts at empire, ironically the British position became one of self-determination, at least in Europe. This seems a fair statement.

https://dhthebus90.wordpress.com/2012/02/29/the-balfour-declaration-and-the-holocaust-their-influence-regarding-the-palestinian-conflict-between-1917-1948/

In a quirky way, that seemingly increased anger at the Jewish communities and put them between a mother of a rock and a hard place.

Prior to 1948 there were respected Jewish families throughout the Middle East. Along with the Lebanese, they were the merchant class and I have heard Arabs talk very well of them.

A UK national, I was in UN development, and the remnants of empire sure kept us busy. Noble and timely effort, the BBC's, here.

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Oh please...all of the Brits on this show are a bunch of repugnant characters. I'm sticking it out for the remainder of this series (in the US, PBS is airing the final 2 episodes back-to-back on Sun Nov 22), but will probably not watch this again when it returns.

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Well what crawled up your arse and died? Is there any nation or civilisation on this Earth that has a "squeaky clean" history? At least the British have also left positive contributions to this world, more so than most actually...

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The Brits left India with electricity, railroads and a democratic form of government which left the country in pretty good shape for the future.

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Well what crawled up your arse and died?


Get a grip. Language like this suggests you are an illiterate foulmouthed lout. The precise history of the precise period I describe is not at all controversial now. Its taught in all the countries I mentioned and we Brits need to face up.

A very bad thing was done and the cancers caused ripple on and on. British colonialism did very little from the goodness of anyone's heart. "Wogs begin at Calais" was the prime cause.

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Also, the British have fought in every war in the middle east with the Americans. It has to be said, the Afghans were armed by the American government during the Russo-Afghan War.

If the British were so despicable, the Commonwealth wouldn't even exist because those former colonies chose to join after gaining independence, they weren't forced to against their will. The Commonwealth of nations truly is a force of good. When Ebola struck Sierra Leone, the British were the first to respond with many medical staff who volunteered to go over there and help. The Royal Navy was also involved as well.

I find it utterly hypocritical to criticise a nation's past. For a country that has existed for a 1000 years, it's a bit of a given to have a "darker side" in our past, that's if we really were responsible for all of those things. Besides, aren't the Americans still arming Daesh?

The empire was always hunky dory and I am truly sorry for the negative effects, so I get that. I think it's a bit healthier to form a balanced view of it. People in those days had different attitudes and morals, it would be wrong to say that it was "wholly good" or "bad". To get a clearer picture, contemporary views of the time would be the most relevant to study, people who actually lived under British rule on all corners of the empire, from all walks of life.
The British spread parliamentary democracy and the common law. The English language is a useful tool for business and commerce, many advancements in science, engineering and technology that were produced in Britain were spread to the colonies, the industrial revolution began in Britain, infrastructure was also built there, many of the world's popular sports had their origins in Britain. Although the British Raj was hardly perfect, but the British did ban the Saati and they did stop the thuggee.

The British weren't just the first to abolish the slave trade, but they also enforced the ban worldwide. The RN had an entire fleet dedicated to intercepting ships holding slaves and freeing them from the other empires that were still practicing the slave trade. This was the West African Squadron.
Many people like demonising the British for practicing it in the first place, but slavery and the slave trade were practised by many cultures for thousands of years. European Christians were enslaved by barbary pirates in North Africa for instance. But the difference is, the British ended it whilst those in North Africa were still practising it well in to the early 20th century.

I know you said it was after 1914 things started to go south, but the positive legacy is still felt today, along with the bad. But then again, the Middle East was always dysfunctional with many warring tribes and if we look back at the origins of Islam...well it wasn't the most peaceful beginning, the Crusades happened for a reason. We also don't know what the Middle East would have been like with the BE, or even India. The sub continent wasn't even a united country before the British arrived.

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Sorry, I was meant to say, "we don't know what the world would have been like WITHOUT the BE". Stupid typo, lol.

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And the empire WASN'T always hunky dory. Bloody hell, lol

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Excellent response. I'm american but love Britain. Go there every chance I can.

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Great. Surprise post though. You are the same Cair Parvel who upthread posted this?

Most of the trouble spots in the world have English finger prints on them. And I love Britain but the truth is the truth.


The jingoist posting off-subject above you ignored every point in the top post - and he had started off so promisingly:

Well what crawled up your arse and died?


I'm British. I worked in almost all of those nations. I never met any other Brit in the UN who denied the dangerous mess created post-Ottoman.

I love Britain but the truth is the truth.

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Might we find a decent White person in the character of Brother Raworth, perhaps?

He certainly gets no high marks for having had his bit on the side with Leena, and may have continued it off-camera even after his wife caught wise. He's no crusader like McLeod, but his love for the children and the mission seem genuine, while he seems not comfortable with the Brits (at least, that's how Craig Parkinson and/or Anand &Tucker are playing him). And, he stood up to Whelan.

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Right now Indian Summers (for which I commend the brave BBC, it helps a lot to trace strife back to root causes) is 15 years away from this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/partition1947_01.shtml

Summary of the pressures building here (the Oscar-winning film Gandhi shows how Gandhi used economic pressure on the UK textile industry in reverse):

http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/issue47/articles/a03.htm

The reality of British imperial policy was much different than the theory of "The Just Rule." The economy of India was made subject to the needs of the British economy. For example, Indian roads and railway were developed so that raw materials needed by British factories could be more easily taken from the country and so that expensive finished goods from England could be conveniently distributed.

Wealth was systematically drained from India through confiscatory taxes and economic subjugation. British taxes forced peasants to borrow money at high interest rates from money lenders and landlords, virtually enslaving families for generations. Industry was discouraged by Britain's policy of one-way free trade. Europeans were favored for all government jobs.

The British maintained their power by pitting Hindu against Moslem in a policy called "divide and rule." This policy exacerbated tensions between the religious factions in India and contributed to decades of communal strife, countless deaths and the eventual partition of India into two separate countries, India and Pakistan.

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It's hardly "jingoistic", it's balanced...
Anyway, you weren't just referring to the Ottoman Empire either. The fact that you were praising the Americans for "cleaning up the ME" on another thread is particularly amusing...

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The fact that [peterquennell] [was] praising the Americans for "cleaning up the ME" on another thread is particularly amusing...


I would have said that it was particularly stupid rather than amusing. Don't you just love that pro-American inversion of reality - especially from someone who claims to be a Brit? 

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More stupid not to go back to what I actually said and instead to rant on mindlessly.

I didnt PRAISE the Us for anything, I was noting that they were entangled with baggage that goes back to the whole string of betrayals around 1919. Its rare to find anyone defending them once they understand them. Given how many books and YouTubes there are correctly portraying events back then, the defensive dufuses fight a losing battle with no hard facts on their side.

The US would have had little interest in anything in the Middle East if it was not for (1) oil owned by the Saudis, driven to militant Wahhabism by the betrayal of the British; or (2) the betrayal of the Balfour Declaration leading pretty directly to the Holocaust and militant Israel, another betrayal by those same British.

Try reading Lawrence of Arabia. Keep watching all the fractious erosion of the Ottoman, Russian, French and British borders. Watch THIS continue to unwind with megadeaths everywhere, the rise of ISIS, and Europe really shaken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%E2%80%93Picot_Agreement

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The US would have had little interest in anything in the Middle East if it was not for...


...if it weren't for their rampant imperialism EVERYWHERE in the world. You appear blissfully ignorant of their nearly 800 military installations in approximately 160 countries and their history of almost non-stop military actions going on since their very founding as a nation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations

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The economy of India was made subject to the needs of the British economy.


Ummm, a very loud "Duh" should sound right about now. Looting a nation's economy and resources is the usual reason for invasion and occupation of someone else's sovereign nation. The USA is doing precisely that in many parts of the world at the moment. With them, it's called petro-imperialism.

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Every one of those consequences you have mentioned is down to intrinsic conflicts to local ethnic/cultural/religious/internecine factors. None of them is the fault of the withdrawing colonial powers.European colonialism provided the only fleeting order that such places had ever known, once that cork was pulled back out of the bottle, they simply reverted and took back up where they left off.

Like black people in America and slavery, they can't keep milking long-departed colonialism for their own shyt forever.

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Very interesting that you bring this up. I have often said that many of the problems that we see in the world today come from the European powers waiting until the last possible moment and then leaving behind a big mess. I am pretty sure that had WW2 not been so expensive and cut so deeply in to the treasuries of many european countries they may have stayed on for much longer.

People make a huge deal out of slavery in the US and they often point out how the practice was stopped in Europe proper longer before the US but that isn't exactly accurate and it doesn't take in to account the colonies governed by the European powers and the treatment of the locals which was almost as bad as slavery.

I am not saying that slavery here in US was ok I am saying that somehow the narrative has turned in to the it is the US that caused all of these problems and never seems to point out that colonial rule left a big scar on much of the world. So it often bugs me when I see Europeans especially Brits acting with some huge moral outrage.

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