MovieChat Forums > Proof (2015) Discussion > Great concept, lazy writing

Great concept, lazy writing


I love the fact that TNT is attempting to address a topic that has such philosophical implications. I hate the way they have executed it.

Carolyn starts out as the most non-believing non-believer. She's rude, she's confrontational, she's overly dismissive. That was all the set up so that we could see her transformation to a believer. I get it. But to make her character so one dimensional is lazy writing. If I had, in fact, had a NDE during which I saw my dead son, I would at the very least be curious about the after life. But noooooooo, not Carolyn, it's just brain activity and she can assault anyone who suggests otherwise.

Turing is a billionaire obsessed with finding out what happens after death but he's not motivated in any way to throw a little cash into alternative treatments to cancer other than Western medicine? You could spend $1000 on some cannabis oil, juice with some exotic fruits and veggies, and take some coconut oil and get better results than trying to prove what happens after death. The entire concept of someone needing to know what's going to happen to them after they die is silly. I have no idea what's going to happen to me after I die but I'm pretty sure, that death, as in life, is going to be different for everyone. What happens to Bob is not going to be what happens to Sue. Anyone smart enough to make BILLIONS of dollars isn't smart enough to figure that out?

I get that every show has to have a non-believer but the fact that every non-believer is so adamant that there is NOTHING after death is lazy writing. A woman's husband dies and she sees images of herself and memories they shared together from the contraption he wore on his head but she's going to insist that there is nothing after death? Really? Her husband's body isn't even cold and she's ready to insist that there is nothing to be learned from his death experience because there is nothing after life. It's more unbelievable that a team of writers came up with that as a concept.

My three year old child, without any training whatsoever, sits down at the piano and starts playing Mozart. He's never had a lesson in his life and he is playing concert recitals. What? Your suggesting that he might be reincarnated? *beep* you! *beep* you! *beep* you! How dare you! In fact, I'm going to sue you for even suggesting it because there is nothing after death. Who writes this?

I had to look up the writers for this show to see of there were any women and sadly there are. The female characters on this show are the most one-dimensional characters possible. Janelle has two Ph.D.s and yet she's got the maturity of a 13 year old. This Kenyan woman is a crazy stalker woman who is so in love with Zed that she travels half way around the world and smiles politely when he says he never loved her and then wants to have sex with him? Kenyan women don't have self-esteem? She can't just eat ice cream and Oreos and cry like normal women when a guy breaks up with her? Women on this show are only allowed to have one dimension.

It is painfully obvious that there are no African Americans as writers or doing the casting on the show. Why should there be? White people can speak for biracial people, they know everything about the biracial experience. Carolyn is white in every way, except for her dark skinned father whose parents rejected their white daughter in law. Wait, in real life, white parents reject black in laws at an exponentially greater rate. But who cares? Color doesn't matter, can't we all just get along? Carolyn's dual identity is a prop when needed, she only has to deal with it in one episode, otherwise she can shut that part of her identity off and not have to deal with it.

"They told me not to talk to you anymore." "Nothing good is going to come from your research, let it go." Ahhhh, I get it, the keepers of the other side are petty. They don't want you to know what happens after you die so they are going to put you in spiritual investigation time out.

The concept of the show is a good one. The execution is painful.

reply

THANK YOU for for this post, which articulates many of the issues I've raised in other threads and raises a few others that could stand airing.

reply

I don't think its lazy. Its actually fairly realistic. Ever been to the board for movies like Heaven is for Real? It brings out the most adamant non-believers. Its a lot like politics. People tend to hold fast to their beliefs no matter what arguments may be presented.


The saga of getting my first novel on Kindle
http://ricksmidnightquill.blogspot.com/

reply

I'm not quite sure what specific part of the OP you are addressing, but if it's the lazy writing of multiple characters having a knee jerk negative reaction to any mention of the afterlife, then I'm not sure a dramatization can be compared to what people post online about another story. People can post without having any experience with the topic or any stake in terms of having a loved one hovering between life and death or already passed. But the show presents real life decisions in fictionalized form and thus has choices in how it presents these moments, and it really is VERY unrealistic that such a high percentage of humans would go straight to anger and denial, when MOST Americans believe in some kind of afterlife, most have heard of NDEs, most for that matter have some kind of religious belief (which was barely addressed on one show, showing Carolyn as a lapsed Catholic). So to me the laziness is that the writers keep falling back on denial and anger to create conflict while leaving very little time for joy or wonder or faith or spiritual maturity to find their way into the scripts.

reply

Someone on Facebook excused the lazy writing away by saying that the writers have to have a conflict between the "there is'ers" and the "there isn'ters". That doesn't forgive the formulaic and predictable and childlike writing of Proof. In real life, even the most ardent, stringent atheists I know aren't as close-minded as these characters. They are at least open to the possibility that there are questions that they don't have the answers to. If they were presented with images of someone at the moment of their death, they wouldn't say, "These are personal, destroy them and stop your research for the privacy of a person who is dead and wouldn't give a darn even if they were living."

There doesn't have to be a God to contemplate that there might be some other level of consciousness that persists after this one ends. But most people are believers in something. Most people are superstitious/religious, even if they can't articulate it or identify their own behaviors and beliefs, they are still tied to some sort of Heaven/Hell, Super Sky Daddy, angelic, supernatural lore. This show makes everyone not only a non-believer, they are a non-believer to the point of childish tantrums of rage. For the life of me, I can't understand how a team of writers agreed that holding on to that same exact formula would be a good way to go.

reply

The show has felt so far somewhat realistic between what people in real life would think of the "next world" and the govt out there is possibly hiding the fact that there might be creatures living in the space. No one knows except for those in the know.

And lastly if the show had "African-Americans" it wouldn't make much difference. A writer's a writer. It's the way a writer produces it not his skin colour or whatever.

reply

What does this show have to do with space aliens or government conspiracies? No one is hiding afterlife studies - it's all out there.

reply

It is painfully obvious that there are no African Americans as writers or doing the casting on the show. Why should there be? White people can speak for biracial people, they know everything about the biracial experience. Carolyn is white in every way, except for her dark skinned father whose parents rejected their white daughter in law. Wait, in real life, white parents reject black in laws at an exponentially greater rate. But who cares? Color doesn't matter, can't we all just get along? Carolyn's dual identity is a prop when needed, she only has to deal with it in one episode, otherwise she can shut that part of her identity off and not have to deal with it.


I'm confused at your post here. You're arguing different sides of the same coin that is actually pretty irrelevant in this series. If they made her father Asian, would it change the storyline?

The actress in real life has a black father, so the show stayed true to that fact. The way the actress holds herself, and how she has succeeded educationally and professionally, is the product of her parents. Not because one is white and the other black. But because they wanted more for their children. That's not about race but good parenting.

But who cares? Color doesn't matter, can't we all just get along? Carolyn's dual identity is a prop when needed, she only has to deal with it in one episode, otherwise she can shut that part of her identity off and not have to deal with it.


I'm just so confused here. You say 'who cares?', but you obviously do because you brought it up, then you go on to say 'her dual identity is a prop.' I don't know why you're so focused on the color of her skin rather than the story being unfolded week after week.

They focused on the real issue of that particular episode...which is the tension between her father and her. It's not because he's black, but because he comes from a military background, and Carolyn has always seen him as unsympathetic and rigid.

It is painfully obvious that there are no African Americans as writers or doing the casting on the show. Why should there be? White people can speak for biracial people, they know everything about the biracial experience.


Zed is African. They have brought a little of his culture in to the show and even had his girlfriend fly out from Kenya to see him. Does this mean, suddenly for this episode they must've slipped a black writer in because none of this could have possibly been written by a white one?

And where does it say 'white people know everything about the biracial experience'? If you're insightful, and through observation you can understand the struggles of what people go through on a day to day basis, then does it matter who is writing for who?

Mya Angelou's words spoke to millions of people on this earth--many white. It's not because she understood white people, it's because she understood people in general, and could see their pain and joys--then in turn write about it. She was extremely insightful.

Look, I'm just trying to understand your viewpoint because you're arguing different things here, and they're contradicting each other.





~Keep some room in your heart for the unimaginable~

reply

To assert that writers who aren't African American, African, or biracial can write realistically for characters who are African American, African, or biracial is the epitome of arrogance. Clearly, the writers of the show have failed miserably at making Carolyn biracial. Her character doesn't act, speak, or navigate the world as a biracial person would other than having her father show up as Black in one episode. But I know, you think that white writers can write for every other ethnicity authentically, that there are no cultural differences, that anything that other people experience and intrinsically know white writers automatically have to be able to tap into. That sort of arrogant, flawed thinking is why the show fails on so many indices. They have made Carolyn's character a white woman who just happens to have a Black father. That's the laziest sort of racist writing, asserting that people of color are merely white people with tan and dark skin. Our identities have been white-washed.

reply

It works for the actress. Have you ever seen one of her interviews? Does she talk or act differently than her character on the show? She sounds the same to me. So it's not arrogance, just the ability to not judge millions of people based on a stereotype.

I'm not sure how you think a biracial person acts. Your generalization of biracial people is just silly. I can't even take your post seriously.

~Keep some room in your heart for the unimaginable~

reply

Ohhhhhhh, because she sounds the same to you in interviews, that means biracial people don't experience the world differently than you. (The height of arrogance)

reply

See again, you're not making sense. Now you're arguing the opposite. First, you're saying she's not portraying her character like a 'true biracial' person should. Now you're saying they're all different.

What say you? Make up your mind, already.

Arrogance, in this here argument, would be thinking everyone should act how I would act...a form of superiority. That's what you're basically saying.

I'm saying everyone is an individual and doesn't need to fit into a tidy little box that you so clearly like to put on people. You're the one here who sounds a little arrogant--not me.

~Keep some room in your heart for the unimaginable~

reply

No, you are extremely arrogant, asserting that you know that biracial people don't have a different experience than you. There ARE racial and ethnic differences that are common to African Americans, and even people who are half African American. Just because you aren't aware of them doesn't mean they don't exist and it doesn't mean that erasing them means that everyone is the same. What's offensive is you asserting that our experiences as people of color are not important, that our true voices can't be heard so as not to offend your lily-white sensibilities.

Rather than you being enlightened and progressive and saying, "I'm not aware of the differences in culture for biracial people but I do think there should be some diversity in the writing staff when a person of color is in the cast so as to make sure that an authentic voice can be heard," you would rather take your racist stance that white people can write for characters of color because YOU don't see a difference.

reply

While I agree vehemently with almost everything else you say, I do think the insistence that only an African-American writer should be writing for a biracial character makes no sense - particularly since the character's racial background is incidental to the show. In an increasingly racially diverse country, how could any show maintain a stable of writers so that a black character, an Asian character, a FEMALE black character (because her perspective would be different yet again), etc, could all be written separately by those who "get" the subtleties of their experience - which is still going to be unique to them.

Writers use their imaginations to put themselves into all kinds of people whose experiences are vastly different than their own. With only ten hours in a season, I don't know how even the best of writers could have found time to explore Carolyn's racial background as a separate issue while maintaining as much focus as they have on the afterlife issues. On which they seem scattered enough as it is.

reply

Zed is a promising young surgeon. Carolyn respects him and apparently that means something because she doesn't respect any other surgeons in the hospital as even being barely competent. Why then is he serially attracted to women who are grossly childlike? Why is he not attracted to Carolyn, who is at least intelligent but socially mal-adjusted. No, he's attracted to women who are the equivalent of doe-eyed teenagers. We as viewers are supposed to assume that he is romantically attracted to women who aren't as mature as Carolyn's daughter?

What the hell does Janelle have a Ph.D. in, hair braiding? My Little Pony? As far as I'm concerned it's misogynist to make her character so childlike. It's disrespectful to all women to make her an empty headed administrative assistant and then tell us that she holds two doctorates.

reply

TWO Ph.Ds - as is mentioned about once per episode. Can you imagine a male character, brilliant enough to have earned two doctorates at whatever age, who would be relegated to this role?

Also, the idea that Zed can't be "beholden" to anyone.... Never mind that he was once willing to be beholden to his future father-in-law. He's been doing unpaid research for a dying man so rich that the cost of Zed's student loan would be the equivalent of a cup of coffee - more likely the foam on that coffee - but Zed instantly dismisses help from him? By the way, Carolyn gets $80 billion for her pet charity if she finds proof - what do her fellow researchers get? And what if THEY find the proof before she does?

reply

I still can't get over the fact that Carolyn can sprint through the halls of the hospital at breakneck speed, hurdling gurneys and carts, dodging patients in wheelchairs, yet she is trying to catch up with the woman in the green scarf and she casually jogs through the park like she's taking a Sunday stroll.

I want to like this show. I really do. I would eat my own eyeball before I watch shows like Modern Family or Playing House (another network, I know). But Proof is insulting in so many ways and I can't figure out why. TNT knows how to create strong female characters. They know how to create shows that are challenging and compelling. They just seem to be treating the viewers like we are idiots on this one.

reply

Since Green Scarf has turned out not to be able to teleport after all - a considerable cheat from early episodes - and can be found pushing carts of flowers, it is remarkable that a woman who runs for exercise took so long to catch up with her. Again, lazy writing. They could only tease the audience by a series of cheats.

And now that Carolyn has made the giant leap from skeptic to having a foot in both worlds, how will they maintain the premise that she is coolly looking for scientific proof?

reply

That is no different than how movie and television characters always conveniently find the best parking place. Its not lazy writing.

The saga of getting my first novel on Kindle
http://ricksmidnightquill.blogspot.com/

reply

Yes, it is. They went out of their way in episode after episode to show this middle aged woman appearing and disappearing as if by magic, always elusively out of reach, even within the hospital. She shows up at Carolyn's home to deliver ominous, cryptic utterances. Then it turns out she's been a known presence at the hospital as - drum roll - a volunteer. Who visits dying people with flowers.

She has been a significant figure whose appearances were pointedly melodramatic - the very opposite of those convenient parking places, which happen so we WON'T be distracted from the story itself.

reply

@peggygeordie You are now my Best IMDB Friend Forever. They went out of their way week after week to convince us that the mysterious green scarf woman was some sort of apparition. One second she's on the street corner, the next second, she's gone. Janelle researched all of Carolyn's past patients and there were no patients fitting her description. NOW, not only is she a former patient, she works in the very hospital that Carolyn works. How many patients does a doctor have to work on that she forgets the ones that died on the operating table during surgery? Then you see her, you meet her, she works in your place of employment, and you STILL don't remember her?

It's like the writers are sitting around saying, "Oh, those dumb viewers won't care that there are serious issues with logic, all they care about is the fact that Jennifer Beals is pretty."

reply

One thing we know for sure: Janelle is a very poor research assistant when she couldn't find what she was looking for WHEN SHE KNEW WHERE TO LOOK. Two PhDs.... Sigh.

We also know the show hasn't spent money on script continuity - with only ten episodes to keep straight.

And hey, I appreciate you too!

reply

I think the saddest commentary is that we are both still watching this show when it has so many holes in it. I wanted to like it just because of the subject matter but I had issues even after the first episode. I'm glad the season is only 10 episodes so they can take a break and revamp the writing. From their Facebook page, it looks like you and I are the only ones who see all the writing flaws. Everyone else seems to think it's a fantastic show.

reply

From their Facebook page, it looks like you and I are the only ones who see all the writing flaws. Everyone else seems to think it's a fantastic show.

Interesting that nobody else is seeing what you are seeing. Do you think that might be a clue? At best you have nitpicks, but no serious flaws in the writing.


The saga of getting my first novel on Kindle
http://ricksmidnightquill.blogspot.com/

reply

Actually, other people I know see the same flaws - they just aren't on Facebook about it (or anything to do with the show) because it doesn't interest them enough to post. It's usually the people who LOVE a show who are all over social media about it.

And the fact is that not that many people have analytical brains so of course the majority are likely to just watch a show to let it wash over them. That's fine for them.

But I have no problem with being in a minority on this board who were hoping for much more from this show and wish the writing was more challenging and the characters more three-dimensional. I'm someone who has always loved discussing books and films and television shows not for their plot but to really explore the situations and characters, the motivations and sometimes the history or ideas that open up a bit more of the world.

The concept is what keeps me watching and discussing - despite the severely flawed execution.

reply

OK, I get it. You and a hand full of others are much smarter and more observant than the rest of us mere peasants. Believe what you want if it makes you feel better.


The saga of getting my first novel on Kindle
http://ricksmidnightquill.blogspot.com/

reply

Seriously? I didn't call you a peasant. I said I had a more analytical brain than most and liked to explore ideas. If you want to turn it into an insult, that is your own defensiveness at play.

You say you have written a novel, so do you give your own writing a free pass in terms of continuity and logic? Would you make a character a brain surgeon in one chapter and a heart surgeon a few chapters later? Give a character the power to teleport in one chapter and a few chapters later, reveal that she walks like a normal human? Tell us that a character is super smart, but show no evidence of her intelligence in the story?

Anyway, it's not as though that many people are even posting on the IMDB "Proof" boards at the moment, which doesn't indicate an overwhelming interest in the show. Days go by without anyone offering a comment. Clearly YOU have a vested interest in the show, as you post as much or more than anyone here. But it doesn't mean you get to put down others for having a different take on it than you do.

So if @fantasies and I want to keep the conversation going over what WE find of interest - even if it's nailing the show's inconsistencies and bad writing - it's hardly a threat to you or the people who want to spend their time here going on about how pretty and talented Jennifer Beals is or how they are glad Carolyn finally fell into bed with her husband.

reply

No, you didn't call us peasants, but you are flat out saying that you are better than most of us. Unfortunately, your posts don't bear that out. Yes, you can have any conversation you want, but don't expect other to not call you out on your silliness.

The saga of getting my first novel on Kindle
http://ricksmidnightquill.blogspot.com/

reply

No, I didn't say "better," so again you are putting words in my mouth just to pick a pointless quarrel.

You don't need to "call" me on anything but if you insist on using words like "silliness" then it explains why you don't realize that the women on "Proof" don't behave like actual adults.

reply

I just thought of something analogous to your issue with white writers not having the personal expertise to write about the black experience. I'm not saying the writers aren't as intelligent as the next person, but what are the odds they really understand how highly intelligent people function? Which may be why these supposedly brilliant characters and especially women interact on such a childish level. Not because it ramps up the drama, having them run from the room or throwing a fit rather than having a calm discussion, but because they don't know how intelligent people behave and therefore can't write realistically about them?

reply

Wow, we are on the same wavelength. It dawned on me last night that the writers never interact with PhDs, or anyone in academia to actually write about them so they could make Janelle some simplistic dolt and think that was okay. I'm always shocked at the number of times someone in my own life will say to me, "Oh, so and so is really smart," when in fact, they aren't smart at all. But because they have never met anyone really intelligent, or intellectual, it's all relative. To them, really smart means slightly smarter than they are.

The same could be said for the viewers who are fawning over the show and so oblivious to the obvious flaws in writing. When practically every show on television is about adults behaving in neurotic, immature, silly ways, this show is like Shakespearean theater to the masses. For people who can't tolerate reality shows with scripted drama and moronic comedies, we are pained when a show has so much potential and it fails in such obvious (to us) ways.


Again, the concept of exploring the afterlife is a solid one. It holds the potential for lots of storylines that will tug at the heartstrings and really move the audience. Jennifer Beals is a great actress. At this point, I'm going to watch the finale and IF they get a second season, I'll give them one or two episodes. If they don't correct some of these egregious errors, then I have to let it go. I am not entertained by having my intelligence insulted.

reply

"Intelligent" is right up there with "strong, independent" (the invariable show description, "She plays a strong, independent woman who....") when the actual behavior depicted is anything but. It's the modern version of the romance novelists who always described the heroine as "spirited" as a way to cover any amount of mindless behavior.

By the way, have you looked a few threads down for the one I headed on how I wish Carolyn would stop lying to herself and others? You might find it of interest.

And on a positive note, ABC cancelled a show this year that did have strong, intelligent, moral characters behaving well: "Forever." An interesting fantasy premise, the usual "suspend your disbelief" forensic procedurals, but above all a lovely cast treating each other the way thoughtful people who care about each other actually treat each other. Family and friends adored it, and it was actually gaining ground as more people discovered it. So of course ABC cancelled it in favor of more scandal, gossip, bad behavior and revenge plots. There was a terrific fight to save it but to no avail.

reply

I signed a petition to keep Forever. I wrote to ABC, I posted on Facebook. I loved that show.

I'm sure we probably like the same shows. Orphan Black, Luther, Sherlock, Suits (although I'm getting discouraged by Mike's "secret"), and a handful of others. Extant is another show I really want to like, I think the premise is good, but I am offended by the horrible writing as well. I don't think adultery and/or violence is entertaining so that eliminates most prime time dramas, the ONLY reality show I like is SYTYCD, and I REFUSE to watch shows that use the N word or depict Blacks as ghetto stereotypes. That only leaves a few shows for me to like.

That's one of the reasons I'm so adamant about posting my complaints about Proof. I sincerely hope that some intern is assigned to reading viewer comments and they are forwarding some of the more substantial complaints to the producers or whomever makes the decisions about the direction of the show. Some shows take time to develop. It certainly takes more than 10 episodes to find your stride. I won't be depressed if Proof doesn't make it to a second season but I will be disappointed that there is one less opportunity for me to find some quality television.

We must excel, not just exist.

reply

I agree.
They could have done so much with this topic but it's come down to "incident of the week" without anyone learning anything about life after death.

I think the writers aren't smart enough to work out what it is that they're exploring, hence the frankly stupid development of the Green Scarf Woman's appearances and the unwillingness of Jennifer Beals' character not to even bother to communicate with other researchers studying the same topic.

A massive opportunity completely wasted, which is disappointing.

If the opposite of Love is indifference, what's the opposite of Hate?

reply

Good Will, welcome back to the discussion! You've been absent for awhile, though I recall liking your posts some time back. Anyway, we're clearly on the same page.

reply

Re: "Forever" - I'm not on social media, but I signed and forwarded every petition going AND wrote an actual letter to Warner Brothers (as did my sister). We were on a business trip when we heard it had been cancelled and actually cried. Or rather, we cried over Ioan Gruffudd's eloquent and heartfelt response to having received the news We had to show up at breakfast (we're in business travel) explaining why we looked like that, and the hotel sales manager said she hadn't watched it but that her boss was crazy about it. She joined us later and we all commiserated over what a loss it was.

By the way, even raising the subject cautiously in a professional setting, I've discovered that most people are VERY open to topics like reincarnation and the afterlife, thus showing that it's increasingly normalized in our society.

reply

I wrote an actual letter to Ioan and told him that I was moved by his performance and to know that he was going to go on to greater things. Now that I think about it, I should have written the writers of the show and told them what an excellent job they did. I think I'll do that now. It's never too late to show my appreciation.

We must excel, not just exist.

reply

It's never too late to show appreciation! Have you watched Ioan in the Hornblower series? He was also William Wilberforce, the great anti-slavery crusader. Before I ever knew who Wilberforce was, I was walking through the lower levels of the National Portrait Gallery in London and saw the portrait of Wilberforce. I was so struck by its radiant kindliness that I could hardly tear myself away. I just wanted to bask in that man's goodness, whoever he was. So it was very gratifying to look him up and discover my instincts were right - he was a great soul.

I hope Ioan contines to seek out - and find! - the increasingly few roles that can give full play to his goodness and intelligence, and find fellow cast members as warmly supportive as those on "Forever." We should also credit the writers!

reply

For me, the concept that I found most offensive in the finale was the concept of The Green Scarf woman recruiting Carolyn, enticing her, manipulating her to come to the other side as if she had a vested interest in it. It was like she was in a pyramid scheme and she was going to get paid extra money for bringing in another recruit under her. This woman had no emotional connection to Carolyn whatsoever. They were not related, they weren't even friends. For her to be so pushy in trying to get Carolyn to go all the way to the other side was highly offensive to me. What on earth could be her motivation for such intimidating recruitment? A virtual stranger is tempting me to die. She has no concern for me, my work, my family, but she's trying to win one for the team? Again, I think that is the laziest sort of writing.

I had sooooooooo many issues with the final episode that they are almost too many to recount. For me, the best moment of the entire season was the exchange where the new volunteer asked, "Oh, did you see her right before she died?" and Carolyn responded, "No, after." It was fraught with lots of horrible writing choices up until that point but it was the emotional punch that delivered the knock out. As I tried to watch it for purely superficial entertainment, I was left feeling the weight of the evolution of a woman who had her come to Jesus moment.

We must excel, not just exist.

reply