MovieChat Forums > Captain America: Civil War (2016) Discussion > Upon repeated viewings, it's obvious Cap...

Upon repeated viewings, it's obvious Cap was wrong

posted 6 years ago by DarthRoger (867)
12 replies | jump to latest

I went full circle on the arguments regarding liberty versus morality with this movie.

At first view, no doubt I was firmly in "Team Cap" as his argument about people being subject to people with agendas resonated with me. I felt he was right about acting when you see something going wrong, regardless of those who urge caution. It was a bit of "the lesser of two evils" kind of reasoning. Sometimes, that argument is the right one.

Upon the next viewing, my mind started changing. By the third viewing, I could clearly see Tony's argument in a greater context than merely the "man against the world" mentality that Steve often employs. What I had initially viewed as Steve's stand for individual choice of action, revealed itself to be an act of self-righteous defiance, hardly a just argument. Even the morally compromised Black Widow asks Steve quite bluntly "Do you really want to punch your way out of this?" The fact that Steve's answer is "We fight," shows his personal hubris. This was the moment he lost all moral standing. Had he merely stood down and gone with Tony, they would have discovered that the real assassin was framing Bucky Barnes but NO, Steve had to have the last word and get his way. It went completely by Zemo's script. The key moment where Cap/Steve realizes he's been played is when Zemo tells him "I studied you." Zemo knew that Cap was a one man army and figured how he'd react.

So Tony was right all along, maybe not entirely in the way he thought but certainly in his "greater good" frame of mind. Steve's written apology is not very remorseful about his role in everything and again magnifies why he's so wrong. All Steve is sorry for, is not telling Tony about Bucky killing his parents. Hardly a moment of gallantry for Cap, considering the damage his decisions caused to property, Rhodey Rhodes and the Avengers team.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

I see it as a heart versus head thing. His best friend was a marked man, and even if his enemies were his crew, he wasn’t going to let him be killed.

[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

Bucky's life wasn't in danger from Tony and his team (except maybe Black Panther), when they confronted Steve at the airport. That was Cap being all self-righteous about getting to the other super soldiers in Siberia before Zemo did. He even said so. Like I mentioned above, Cap (Steve) did exactly what Zemo expected him to do. He was wrong, period.
In your defense though, I'm thinking Cap would do anything for Bucky, which makes me wonder if there's anything he wouldn't do for Bucky.

[–] [deleted] 6 years ago

Well he remembers that Cap used to put newspaper in his shoes.

[–] TheReccher (343) 6 years ago

Your argument is just an attack on Cap's character, not a deconstruction of his arguments or policies. If we're going there than Stark will lose, because he was practically the main villain of the movie.

You can argue about rules and practices and authority till the sun rises, but at the end of the day, these aren't normal people and their circumstances aren't normal. They've proven themselves time and time again to be responsible with their power. Yes, they're human too. They can be as bias and hubristic and stupid as any other human, so are the people making the rules. Their hurbis however, will get in the way of thousands of lives being saved. Nobody is perfect, but power has to go somewhere.

Tony's creation of Ultron had nothing to do with being an enhanced human or super-hero. He could have done that without becoming Iron Man. The fact people think that should be a factor in the Sokovia Accords drama is bizzare.

[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

I think you're missing my point.

Cap's conviction of his own "rightness' was/is his major flaw. It ultimately clouded his decision making. His commitment to save Bucky above all else (even reason), allowed Zemo to play Cap for a schmuck. Call it tunnel vision on Cap's part. He was convinced he had it all figured out about Zemo's plan. He didn't.

Tony Stark is certainly a flawed man, yet he acknowledges it and tries to master his faults, unlike Steve. I think a big part of Steve's problem, is that he's a man out of time and the world is even MORE complex than it was during the era of WW2. He can't make the snap decisions he could back then. Can you imagine what goes on in his mind? You just wake up one day and everyone you knew is either very old or very dead. Also the world is vastly different.

What I saw (after repeated viewings of this fantastic movie), is Tony/Iron Man desperately trying to get Cap/Steve Rogers to slow down and consider everything happening. If that makes Tony a villain in someone's eyes, then so be it. I think Tony is thinking that half of what you want is better than nothing. In the case of the Sokovia Accords, he seems to deem them a necessary evil for the greater good. Does that make him right? Maybe, maybe not. At least he's stopping to consider it.

I guess the short of what I'm trying to express here, is that Tony will admit if he's wrong and Cap won't. It's not throwing Cap under the bus, it is what it is. Cap sees most things in black and white. Tony doesn't.

[–] MaximRecoil (4048) 6 years ago

"His commitment to save Bucky above all else (even reason), allowed Zemo to play Cap for a schmuck. Call it tunnel vision on Cap's part. He was convinced he had it all figured out about Zemo's plan. He didn't."

That's absurd. Everyone did what Zemo hoped they would do, not just Rogers. If Stark and his cohorts hadn't been on the globalist authoritarian bandwagon, there wouldn't have been any infighting; i.e., Zemo's plan wouldn't have worked. Stark did come to his senses near the end of the movie, but then in a fit of irrationality (blaming a guy for killing his parents even though he knew the guy was under mind control at the time), started the infighting again.

So even though everyone did what Zemo hoped they would do, Rogers and Co. were doing the right thing (based on logic/reason), and Stark and Co. were doing the wrong thing (based on irrationality).

Collateral damage is inevitable, and using that as an excuse to submit to globalist control (and Stark and Co. buying into it) is asinine. All you have to do is ask yourself what would have happened had the Avengers not been there in those situations. You don't even have to ask about any event beyond the events of the 2012 Avengers movie, because that's when the whole world would have been taken over by aliens. But somehow some collateral damage deaths are a problem?

[–] TJLamb0518 (3316) 6 years ago

As a viewer, you feel Cap is right because it's a superhero movie and Cap is advocating more traditional superhero behaviors.

If this were the real world, every one of us would be team Iron Man.

[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

That's some of it but not most of it.

At the end of the day, Tony is just morally right. Cap refuses to budge and look at the bigger picture. I would argue that he even knows he's wrong.

[–] TJLamb0518 (3316) 6 years ago

Since I agree, it would be a short argument.

[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

Oh I know, I'm just thrilled to find another fan who agrees. :)

Most of my comic book movie friends are "Team Cap" all the way and refuse to look past the love they have for Chris Evan's version of the character. They will make excuse after excuse when I point out the deeply inherent flaw in Cap's reasoning, even though I'm trying to make them see that you can have a favorite character be wrong and still be a favorite character. "Team Iron Man" may not be everyone's choice but Tony is right on this one.

[–] TJLamb0518 (3316) 6 years ago

I love Cap as well. Does not mean he's infallible. The Accords make a certain amount of sense, except having to wait for a call to go into action. Notice Tony did not wait in Infinity War.......okay, maybe not the best example.

[–] DarthRoger (867) 6 years ago

This is true. The Sokovia Accords had some questionable restrictions, mainly the one you mentioned. I think it was more of a situation by situation issue, however Cap was right about "seeing something going south" and not standing by. Context is everything though and Cap only sees things in red or green, not yellow. If he has any failing, it is in this respect. I too love Cap but like you say, he's not perfect.