MovieChat Forums > Captain America: Civil War (2016) Discussion > How a proper accord agreement would have...

How a proper accord agreement would have gone through "in real life"

posted 7 years ago by keyvenx
30 replies | jump to latest

Or as close to reality as the MCU was pretending to be. Instead we got the Hollywood treatment that affected the storyline as a whole - if the Accords had gone through the "realistic" route, Cap would have far less justification to do what he did.

- The Avengers will have found out (because apparently they have a superspy among them) on the political grapevine weeks or months in advance. Or at least have a strong suspicion. Nope, utter surprise despite 117 countries getting on board.

- There would have been input and negotiations involving dozens of politicians and policy-makers on something as vital as global security.

- If there was any respect whatsoever for the people who apparently "saved the freakin' world", they would be consulted before having a pile of documents thrown in their faces.

Expecting them to give up a major chunk of their operational independence UPFRONT without any previous negotiation is absolutely a slap in the face, not to mention risking EXACTLY what Cap did. These are not angry ex-military guys who can be restrained by handcuffs - we're talking flying hammer-wielding gods and angry green giants.

Essentially, it sounds like once they signed the Accords, only then will the UN decide how much freedom they allow the Avengers. That's negotiations for you.

[–] Fluffis 7 years ago

It's called an Emergency Special Session, and can be convened in 24 hours. Most of the ones that have happened in the past IRL (10, so far), have been over in about a week. Some have been over in a day or two.

Quidquid Latinae dictum sit, altum viditur.

[–] keyvenx 7 years ago

Interesting. However, hard to imagine how Black Widow (or Nick Fury) failed to be aware of it. Not to mention notifying the head of 117 countries without anyone else knowing about it.

[–] jcavhs 7 years ago

It might be that they were aware of discussions but thought it unlikely that it would go through. Then Lagos happens and things get settled in a closed meeting with the notification going to the Avengers right away before word leaks.

How do we tell the good guys from the bad guys?
If they're shooting at you, they're bad.

[–] Fluffis 7 years ago

Yeah. We don't actually see them being very surprised. More curious.

Quidquid Latinae dictum sit, altum viditur.

[–] subad 7 years ago

In real life they all would have already been wanted criminals, captured or on the run before any Accord would be planned. And rightfully so.

[–] charleswright805 7 years ago

In real life they all would have already been wanted criminals, captured or on the run before any Accord would be planned. And rightfully so.

Yeah, how dare they save the world on multiple occasions. Lock em up and throw away the key!

That's sarcasm in case you can't tell.

[–] bicuhang 7 years ago

It's called the Sokovian Accords. So, I would imagine that it's actually been being talked about for some time. Now, the other poster could be correct, in that maybe it was a special session that finally got it passed through, but if it had only just been brought up, it would probably have been called the Lagos Accords, which it wasn't. The Lagos incident probably pushed a hasty season.

Like you, I wondered why they hadn't got word. Discussions about it would have been in the news, exec a hasty last minute session. And we see they're watching the news when the SOS arrives. So, I'm not certain how Steve didn't already know that it had been passed, unless it was a secret session, which I wouldn't think they'd have.

I, too, was also surprised that the UN, after having all this respect for the Avengers, didn't call them into the talks. Felt off, and made me think less of the UN. It worked for the movie, which was the purpose (that they should be blindsided by this).

I agree with you. In reality, I'm not certain how actually blindsided they would have been.

[–] samhmd-7489 7 years ago

My guess is that the Accords were being planned for a while. Most likely ever BEFORE Age of Ultron.

Think about it, the Government has always been working on their own way of "evening the playing field" so they don't have to rely solely on superbeings.

In Avengers, we found out that SHIELD (and likely Hydra) had been using the Tesseract to create superweapons for the intent purpose of defending Earth from alien attacks and probably future malevolent super-beings. But this failed when Thor took the Tesseract away.

Afterwards, they came up with Project Insight to use Stark's technology to identify and take down threats before they happen. This fails due to the Hydra thing and Cap and Fury destroying them Super-Carriers and then Widow revealing secrets all over the Globe.

Now they decide to cut out the middle-man. Now the plan is to just get the Superbeings under THEIR control instead of working on countermeasures.

[–] mh-newressistance 7 years ago

My guess is that the Accords were being planned for a while. Most likely ever BEFORE Age of Ultron.

Think about it, the Government has always been working on their own way of "evening the playing field" so they don't have to rely solely on superbeings.

In Avengers, we found out that SHIELD (and likely Hydra) had been using the Tesseract to create superweapons for the intent purpose of defending Earth from alien attacks and probably future malevolent super-beings. But this failed when Thor took the Tesseract away.

Afterwards, they came up with Project Insight to use Stark's technology to identify and take down threats before they happen. This fails due to the Hydra thing and Cap and Fury destroying them Super-Carriers and then Widow revealing secrets all over the Globe.

Now they decide to cut out the middle-man. Now the plan is to just get the Superbeings under THEIR control instead of working on countermeasures.

Every sentence in this as(s)hamed post seem to have severe overabundance of shame for the unashamed wondrous. Why would we need this pseudo-grounded crap if we can have unashamed "wondrous" on every corner? We don't need shameful pseudo-political disputes; we need to see pink unicorns, green grass, and a blue sky, with children singing happy songs. That's as unashamed as unashamed can shamelessly be.

[–] samhmd-7489 7 years ago

Your attitude is shameful.

[–] mh-newressistance 7 years ago

When I listen to this song--

https://youtu.be/q4O_1MdWVo4

--I always have flashbacks of you, Samtron.

[–] TalesfromTheCryptfan 7 years ago

“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”

― C.S. Lewis

"Unicorn, mermaid, vampire,sorceress! No name you'd give her would surprise me i love whom i love"

[–] mh-newressistance 7 years ago

Do you keep leaving this quote on every thread because you personally feel insecure about your age and your set of preferences in movies?

[–] samhmd-7489 7 years ago

No, it's mainly because anyone who says the movies are "for children" or "kiddie" are the ones who feel that way.

[–] mh-newressistance 7 years ago

No, I am sure that he brings it up because he feels insecure about his own maturity. Since mature man would not bring quote such as this into a conversation that has no precedent for this quote to be mentioned.

[–] samhmd-7489 7 years ago

No, I am sure that he brings it up because he feels insecure about his own maturity. Since mature man would not bring quote such as this into a conversation that has no precedent for this quote to be mentioned

People who claim something is "childish" or "immature" need to read that quote to help them understand their own inner shame.

[–] mh-newressistance 7 years ago

People who claim something is "childish" or "immature" need to read that quote to help them understand their own inner shame.

Your little sycophantic groupie throws this pointless quote at every chance he gets, despite the fact that this stupid quote doesn't even fit into the discussion in which he brought it up. Also, by this point, considering for how long I've been making fun of you because of your predictable wordings, you could've avoid using the word "shame" in order to not become bigger buffoon than you are.

[–] samhmd-7489 7 years ago

Your little sycophantic groupie throws this pointless quote at every chance he gets, despite the fact that this stupid quote doesn't even fit into the discussion in which he brought it up.

It fits perfectly, you just can't handle your shame.

[–] mh-newressistance 7 years ago

It fits perfectly,

No, it doesn't if you have at least tiny bit of logical thinking.

you just can't handle your shame.

But I can handle monotone, predictable, lifeless, witless snobs who have terrible understanding of how personal opinions work.

[–] samhmd-7489 7 years ago

No, it doesn't if you have at least tiny bit of logical thinking.

What a shameful thing to say.

But I can handle monotone, predictable, lifeless, witless snobs who have terrible understanding of how personal opinions work

Nolan fans, I know.

[–] mh-newressistance 7 years ago

What a shameful thing to say.

If you are retard, maybe you think it's shameful, Samyboy.

Nolan fans, I know.

No, I'm talking about bothersome slobs that use the word "ashamed" way too much and who always turn tables on other people when they get criticized.

[–] samhmd-7489 7 years ago

If you are retard, maybe you think it's shameful

No, I'm just unashamed.

No, I'm talking about

Nolan fans.

[–] TalesfromTheCryptfan 7 years ago

"Fact. I'm an adult and I've never seen a single adult refer to something as "kiddie". I HAVE seen plenty of young people around ages 18-23 refer to light-hearted fare as "kiddie". These are young adults desperate to establish themselves as adults and thinking they can achieve said goal by "shedding" themselves of "kiddie" things. How do they do that? The same way most emos their age do: run toward "dark" and "serious" material as a way of showing how "mature" and "adult" they are.

Little do these young adults realize is that, as an adult, your taste in everything changes. You stop caring about trivial things such as "how will people perceive me for liking this?" Thoughts like those are thoughts that exist in the minds of very young people trying to establish themselves in the world and worried about criticism. It's the angsty age where everything is about image and cultivating your "adult" status.

Seasoned adults in their late 20's and above adopt a very different mindset. It's the "I don't give a sh!t what people think" mindset. Little do these very young adults realize is that, as a seasoned adult, we often crave a VARIETY of tones and themes and don't single one out as "too kiddie for me". Adults don't think that way. In fact, as seasoned adults, it's much more likely for a person to choose a light-hearted movie at the end of a hard workday or workweek. It's a way to "unwind".

For all those calling the MCU "kiddie", I've seen far more adults around my age (32) and even older than I did teenagers when attending them in the theaters. On the contrary, I see far more teens/early twentysomethings at the few nowadays horror movies I attended at theaters.

As seasoned adults, we embrace a VARIETY of different themes and tones. In my experience, I've seen many people in the 18-23 bracket embrace darker material more than any other form.

My point in all this? Only a very young person would bash a product for being light-hearted or proclaim it to be "kiddie". Adults--seasoned (been in the real world for several years, paying bills and such) adults don't think this way at all. We don't go around, calling things "kiddie" or "Mature and adult".

All this grasping for "grounded" and "realistic" CBM's...there is an old expression that basically says that: "Adults crave fantasy even more than children". And, it's true. Fantasy is a form of escapism. Only a very young mind has this constant "need" for an uber-realistic product all the time. Adults enjoy a BLEND of fantasy and realistic products. Children or very young adults have tendency to gravitate toward the darker, more serious and more "realistic" material because they have this idea in their minds that "fantasy is for kids"...but, what they don't realize, is that you reach a certain point in adulthood where fantasy becomes appealing again. When that point arrives, you no longer care how that fantasy "makes you look" to others. You appreciate it as an escapism from everyday life. As a more seasoned adult, a craving for constant realism becomes less prevalent because, at that point, you already know enough about the world to decide "Hey--I need a little escapism".

Now, that's not to say that seasoned adults don't want realism--we do. We just don't need a CONSTANT dosage or CONSTANT emphasis on it. We don't need it to define our lives/entertainment.

THAT is the fundamental difference between real adults and young adults still trying to establish themselves.

All that I think of when I see someone refer to something as "kiddie" is a very young person who is ashamed of their young age and only wants to be seen as older. And what I stated is something that a very young mind can't possibly understand until they reach that point in life...and most of us do. Those who don't become, well, manchildren.

That is all I have to say."

Which that guy had a point to it including CS Lewis's brilliant quote.

"Unicorn, mermaid, vampire,sorceress! No name you'd give her would surprise me i love whom i love"

[–] mh-newressistance 7 years ago

"Fact. I'm an adult and I've never seen a single adult refer to something as "kiddie". I HAVE seen plenty of young people around ages 18-23 refer to light-hearted fare as "kiddie". These are young adults desperate to establish themselves as adults and thinking they can achieve said goal by "shedding" themselves of "kiddie" things. How do they do that? The same way most emos their age do: run toward "dark" and "serious" material as a way of showing how "mature" and "adult" they are.

Little do these young adults realize is that, as an adult, your taste in everything changes. You stop caring about trivial things such as "how will people perceive me for liking this?" Thoughts like those are thoughts that exist in the minds of very young people trying to establish themselves in the world and worried about criticism. It's the angsty age where everything is about image and cultivating your "adult" status.

Seasoned adults in their late 20's and above adopt a very different mindset. It's the "I don't give a sh!t what people think" mindset. Little do these very young adults realize is that, as a seasoned adult, we often crave a VARIETY of tones and themes and don't single one out as "too kiddie for me". Adults don't think that way. In fact, as seasoned adults, it's much more likely for a person to choose a light-hearted movie at the end of a hard workday or workweek. It's a way to "unwind".

For all those calling the MCU "kiddie", I've seen far more adults around my age (32) and even older than I did teenagers when attending them in the theaters. On the contrary, I see far more teens/early twentysomethings at the few nowadays horror movies I attended at theaters.

As seasoned adults, we embrace a VARIETY of different themes and tones. In my experience, I've seen many people in the 18-23 bracket embrace darker material more than any other form.

My point in all this? Only a very young person would bash a product for being light-hearted or proclaim it to be "kiddie". Adults--seasoned (been in the real world for several years, paying bills and such) adults don't think this way at all. We don't go around, calling things "kiddie" or "Mature and adult".

All this grasping for "grounded" and "realistic" CBM's...there is an old expression that basically says that: "Adults crave fantasy even more than children". And, it's true. Fantasy is a form of escapism. Only a very young mind has this constant "need" for an uber-realistic product all the time. Adults enjoy a BLEND of fantasy and realistic products. Children or very young adults have tendency to gravitate toward the darker, more serious and more "realistic" material because they have this idea in their minds that "fantasy is for kids"...but, what they don't realize, is that you reach a certain point in adulthood where fantasy becomes appealing again. When that point arrives, you no longer care how that fantasy "makes you look" to others. You appreciate it as an escapism from everyday life. As a more seasoned adult, a craving for constant realism becomes less prevalent because, at that point, you already know enough about the world to decide "Hey--I need a little escapism".

Now, that's not to say that seasoned adults don't want realism--we do. We just don't need a CONSTANT dosage or CONSTANT emphasis on it. We don't need it to define our lives/entertainment.

THAT is the fundamental difference between real adults and young adults still trying to establish themselves.

All that I think of when I see someone refer to something as "kiddie" is a very young person who is ashamed of their young age and only wants to be seen as older. And what I stated is something that a very young mind can't possibly understand until they reach that point in life...and most of us do. Those who don't become, well, manchildren.

That is all I have to say."

Which that guy had a point to it including CS Lewis's brilliant quote.

Pal, I think you're just retard, plain and simple. Though, I don't know if you were born that way, or it was Samyboy who had such negative affect on your mind.

[–] TalesfromTheCryptfan 7 years ago

How immature of you! i'm more mature and adult than you as i think your a Fox plant. Since you said your 23, i'm sure you will mature and not be snobby like Bryan Singer and learn to act what true adults should be truly like CS Lewis said as even adults love Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, Sci-fi/fantasy and all that. Sam is a friend of mine and he is right about things sometimes and the fear of childishness is childish itself.

What do you think of CS Lewis's quote and Dtream6's quote? They prove Sam's point to you that you are ashamed of yourself and insecure of your age through angsty. Your attitude towards the realistic/edgy/gritty/grounded thing always remind me of when 14 yr olds want to make themselves sound more adult. I also get flashbacks to 90's era of comic books. *shudders* and they all took the wrong lessons from Alan Moore, Frank Miller and Katsuhiro Otomo's Akira comics without understanding the substance to them.

"Unicorn, mermaid, vampire,sorceress! No name you'd give her would surprise me i love whom i love"

[–] mh-newressistance 7 years ago

How immature of you!

What, to be rational and reasonable, unlike you?

i'm more mature and adult than you as i think your a Fox plant.

I'm not even going to pretend as if I understand this childish nonsense.

Since you said your 23, i'm sure you will mature and not be snobby like Bryan Singer

Pal, why are you mentioning Bryant Singer, and why are you so fixated on maturity?

and learn to act what true adults should be truly like CS Lewis said as even adults love Star Wars, Star Trek, Lord of the Rings, Sci-fi/fantasy and all that.

Real adults don't act like impulsive kids, and real adults know about such thing as rational thinking. Real adults don't spread out random nonsense like you do. Real adults can think for themselves and don't some random quotes to prove something, and they don't mention some random asshоles on the Internet to solidify their opinion.

Sam is a friend of mine

He doesn't give a flying fuск about your pathetic sycophancy towards him. I don't understand why you acting like his little bіtсh. Don't you have spine or something? Jesus...

and he is right about things sometimes and the fear of childishness is childish itself.

I think you and Sam have some really complex issues regarding your view of yourself as adults.

What do you think of CS Lewis's quote and Dtream6's quote?

I don't give a fuск about neither of these two *beep*

They prove Sam's point

The only point that Samyboy was able to prove is that he is belligerent idiot with poor vocabulary.

that you are ashamed of yourself

If I was ashamed of myself, I would not be humiliating guys like him and you for acting like idiots.

and insecure of your age through angsty.

What...are you talking...about? You are the idiot who fixated on the maturity and childishness. You are the one who is insecure about his perception of himself as adult. Real adults don't need to prove that they are adults, clown.

Your attitude towards the realistic/edgy/gritty/grounded thing always remind me of when 14 yr olds want to make themselves sound more adult.

What ANY OF THIS has to do with the fact that you are thirty some year old manchild who heard some quote from some asshоle and you throw this quote in every single discussion, doesn't matter if it fits or doesn't fit the context?

I also get flashbacks to 90's era of comic books. *shudders* and they all took the wrong lessons from Alan Moore, Frank Miller and Katsuhiro Otomo's Akira comics without understanding the substance to them.

You've been saying this bullshіt, in the exact same order, for months now. Are you really trying to be like Samyboy? That is why you repeat yourself so much?

[–] samhmd-7489 7 years ago

Calm down, you're going to give yourself skin failure.

[–] bicuhang 7 years ago

They've most definitely laid the groundwork since the beginning of the movies. I definitely remember them showing in The Avengers where there were people happy with the Avengers and also showing people that were unhappy with them over the destruction. We've seen this in the other movies too.

The actually concept of the Accords was probably being tossed around for some time but came more into discussion of becoming a law after the mess in Sokovia, and were finally solidified after Lagos.

But yeah, there's been mention for some time of this leaning.

[–] King_Gene_Hunt 7 years ago

If this was the real world, they wouldn't need the Sokovia accords because vigilantism is already a crime.

Also, any action resulting from AoU would likely be an investigation of the origin of Ultron, followed by Tony being put on trial.

Also, if this was the real world, Ross would have been drummed out in disgrace rather than becoming secretary of state.

[–] VivaLaVader 7 years ago

Well the Avengers Initiative was established by Nick Fury, former director of S.H.I.E.L.D., an intelligence agency of the U.S. government, so the Avengers would have presumably had some actual authority to intervene in New York. It would not have been considered vigilantism. After S.H.I.E.L.D. was no longer officially operating, I'd assume there would be some leway after the Avengers saved the world to intervene in Sokovia. So yes, they kind of needed the accords as an official law imposed on the Avengers. Agree with the second point about Tony if this was 'the real world,' though I suppose the accords happened largely because of him.

"George, you can type this *beep* but you can't say it."