So, who believes Eric and who believes Taylor? - American Crime (2015) Discussion

[–] TylerFX 8 years ago

It's still unclear as to whether or not Eric meant Taylor freaked out during sex or after. i still think someone did something to Taylor. I'm now thinking the whole Eric thing may be a red herring of sorts.

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[–] TylerFX 8 years ago

Just to clarify: it is a fact that Taylor and Eric had sex. I'm not disputing that.

And when I said I think someone did something to Taylor, I meant someone other than Eric... And I do NOT believe that It was Kevin. It could have been Wes or someone else we haven't even suspected yet.

Taylor told Nate he lied, but didn't say what about. The writers want us to think he meant about being raped, but it might have been something else entirely. Perhaps it was related to the drugs or perhaps he lied about WHO assaulted him. It's unclear at this point.

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[–] mme3924-1 8 years ago

And when I said I think someone did something to Taylor, I meant someone other than Eric...

This is heavily implied. Because the other boys keep talking about not talking, no one telling "what happened." I think it began between Eric and Taylor and then, when Taylor was really helpless and out of it -- and an outsider! -- he may have been gangraped. The damage the nurse found seemed to indicate it was more than rough sex by one person.

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[–] lmcsjb 8 years ago

... when he was in the car with the older married man, he says ...

This is the dialogue I found at Springfieldspringfield.co.uk:

I-I know this I knew this kid in my school.
Same thing.
He said he was all curious or whatever.
Turned him out.
Started screaming about how he didn't really want it.
[Scoffs] That bitch.

I know I heard "turned him out" (I'm not sure who said "Same thing.")

Taylor texted Eric that he liked it rough.
Eric doesn't want to have sex.
"Turned out" - doesn't that usually mean pimped? Told to have sex with someone?
Who? One guy? The whole team?

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[–] noother32 8 years ago

Taylor texted Eric that he liked it rough.
Eric doesn't want to have sex.
"Turned out" - doesn't that usually mean pimped? Told to have sex with someone?
Who? One guy? The whole team?

Pimps use it but all it means is to turn a person that has not had a certain type of sex into a person that now has that kind of sex. For example people were implying Nate turned Taylor out and that is why he was into rough sex. Another example is a girl that never performed oral sex, becoming the go to girl of giving BJs after doing it one time. The first experience turned her out.
My empire of doom begins now!!

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[–] Dejay 8 years ago

Thanks for the quotes! That makes it pretty clear that it was non consensual and Eric just didn't think what he was doing was rape.

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[–] lrdcharlton 8 years ago

What? No it doesn't. It was proven several times over that it in no way suggested rape.

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[–] Dejay 8 years ago

Can you point me to this discussion or "proof"?

The very demeaning phrase "Turned him out" alone speaks to his mindset of what he thought of his sexual partner's feelings and how he treated him: Like a whore. Then "Started screaming about how he didn't really want it." can really only be interpreted that Eric knew that Taylor didn't want it that way while they were doing it. So this is an admission of guilt to the rape from Eric mouth, even if Eric doesn't see it as rape.

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[–] mme3924-1 8 years ago

Then "Started screaming about how he didn't really want it." can really only be interpreted that Eric knew that Taylor didn't want it that way while they were doing it. So this is an admission of guilt to the rape from Eric mouth, even if Eric doesn't see it as rape.

I agree. And I think the series was to point out what rape is, whether male or female. It's not saying "yes", as Taylor himself said: "I didn't say "yes". There is also a great emphasis on male rape and how it's looked upon, and how little sympathy a male gets, as opposed to, perhaps, cases of female rape. Kevin's mother actually says it, I think: "boys can't be raped!"

The whole point was to show how it, and how school politics, adult and law enforcement reluctance to recognize it, and the great influx -- and danger -- of social media, combine to not only not recognize and help victims, but to make everything worse, including the victim's victimization. Taylor says it: the only time he didn't feel like a victim was when the gun went off. He had finally struck back, but in a terrible, tragic, life ruining way. Something he should never have been allowed to come to, had everyone behaved differently from the beginning. Hutton's character also says that: "had we done what we should have from the beginning.....". (paraphrased).

Felicity Huffman is an amazing actress. Considering her two roles in this series, how different they were and how different she looked -- she was exceptional, I thought. So willing to be hated. Hutton was very fine, too. I liked that they used the same actors -- many of them -- in both seasons. It was like watching a theatre stock company.

Not a bad series. Too bad it was not renewed.

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[–] Dejay 8 years ago

Oh I didn't know it wasn't renewed :(

But looking back now on the season 2 story I (still) don't like the ending of him not defending himself legally. It feels a bit soapy. Or maybe it just feels unsatisfying and that is what was intended - instead of "justice" or "redemption" you just get what really would happen - everyone comes away hurting.

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[–] mme3924-1 8 years ago

I may have been wrong about its not being renewed. Some posters are talking about a Season 3.

I, too, thought Taylor's motivation for not going to trial -- that he didn't want his rapist to be in control -- made no sense. That seemed like mushy writing to me.

And I'm more than a little weary of these "clever" endings in which the viewer writes his own. Take a stand, writers! Write your ending and let the criticism chips fall where they may. Many of these kinds of endings are simply cop outs, lazy writing, not nearly as clever as writers want viewers to think.

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[–] lrdcharlton 7 years ago

The flaw in your argument is that not saying yes does not automatically imply non-consent. Taylor freaking out could very well imply regret and not rape.

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[–] Stiles5339 8 years ago

I believe Taylor. He said he lied, but going through being in the closet myself - I am inclined to believe he saw that as a lie, since that's similarly how I view it as well. It's hard to be in the closet without lying a lot. I don't believe Eric because he has repeatedly shown that he has aggressive and violent tendencies.

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[–] lrdcharlton 8 years ago

Then what explanation could you give for what Taylor, in the first episode was sitting in the bleachers watching Eric with a grin on his face. His expression only changed when the party pictures came out. I personally don't know, but I'm leaning towards Eric.

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[–] lmcsjb 8 years ago

I didn't remember that much detail (and I don't have a recording) - that Taylor's expression changed suggests that he really didn't know or remember what happened after a certain point until he saw himself in the photos - which is basically what he told his mother the first time they talked about it.

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[–] lrdcharlton 8 years ago

Hmm,but the police have texts sent from Taylor to Eric begging to talk or meet. He lied about a lot of things.So it is either it's a continuity error or a lie.

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[–] Stiles5339 8 years ago

Not at all. Taylor initially wanted to experiment and was talking "the talk," but when it came down to it, decided that he didn't want to follow through any more. It's a very common occurrence for somebody to say they want to have sex, then suddenly have second thoughts and say "no" beforehand. It is then up to the other party to know and accept the person changed their mind. What you stated would be true if we lived in a world where people don't change their minds, but that isn't the world that we live in.

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[–] lrdcharlton 8 years ago

No, the text messages AFTER the encounter. I am saying in the first scene we see him sitting in the bleachers making eyes at Eric, and looking at pictures of him, then he gets the pictures of himself at the party, then he looks upset. The police brought up texts that were after the party with Taylor repeatedly texted Eric. He lied about basically everything, from what he remembered to who did it and what his intentions were when he went to the party.

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[–] Stiles5339 8 years ago

Could you point out any examples that show there were any sexually explicit texts sent after it happened. To my knowledge the only texts brought up were the ones from before it happened.

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[–] lrdcharlton 8 years ago

I didn't say the texts were sexual, he was texting Eric to see him. This was revealed when the police were made aware of the text that occurred before the party. The police question him about the texts because they didn't seem like one;s a rape victim would say to his rapist.

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[–] Stiles5339 8 years ago

If you meant wanting to meet and most recently going to meet him when he got the text from "Eric"? That was clearly an attempt to try to get over it by wanting to try to get the full story and every detail from that night that he possibly can so that he can move on. His memory of the event is hazy because he was drugged. Despite the possibility of Eric raping him, Taylor (like a lot would) wanted to know about what happened that night so that he could get over it in his own mind. That's why, despite how hard it was, he decided to meet up with "Eric" too.

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[–] lrdcharlton 8 years ago

So, despite the fact he we able to apparently tell about the encounter in detail, only when it came out that he went there to hook up. He was able to tell every detail leading up to including and including the act, but he didn't know and his memory was hazy. Right . He looked so apprehensive when Eric called. And he was watching his possible rapist okay basketball with a grain his face.

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[–] lmcsjb 8 years ago

It just occurred to me that the change in Taylor's expression when he saw the pictures might be because he knew there were pictures but he thought the only other person who knew - the person who took them - was someone he trusted: Eric.

Then he texted Eric (he didn't confront him in person at school) because he wanted to talk to him in private to find out how and why the pictures were made public.

Edit: I guess this isn't any different than if he didn't remember any pictures being taken and he thought Eric was the only person who knew we was in that room passed out.

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[–] Stiles5339 8 years ago

He never stated the exact specifics, he knows the general information about what happened before and what happened during as would a lot of people who were drugged. However, also like people who are drugged, there are chunks of time missing in addition to that. In addition, aspects of what happened when you're high/drunk/etc. typically do come back over time, not completely but aspects of it.

ANYONE would look apprehensive that Eric would call him - Eric didn't want to meet prior to go over what happened, everything is worse than ever, and add that to the rape. There was a clearly dangerous factor about meeting him at night and away from his house. Meeting at school or etc. would be one thing. That call - had red flags all over it.

Taylor has been consistent with being somebody who never wanted any actions taken against Eric and an interest in finding out the full details of what happened that night, even at the risk of his own safety. Since the beginning he has visibly experienced a traumatic experience that has emotionally drained him, that night still has a profound haunting effect on him, like it would have on anyone that was raped. Add to that, he never wanted it legally to get as far as it did and pushed everyone to let it go and let him come to terms with it. That isn't someone who wants attention or is seeking to get back at Eric for something. Those are the consistent traits of a victim trying to deal with a complex trauma and work it out in his own mind.

Eric has also been consistent as somebody with anger issues. His brother mocks him - Eric tackles and pins him to the ground and stays there for such a length of time it's impossible to tell what he's thinking and if he's been in such a position before. That moment had an unsettling sexual charge to it. Every time Eric is asked about Taylor, he gets angry calling him a "bitch" and states Taylor didn't want it - both trigger sudden angry and aggressive responses out of him. But, let's forget all about that, right? Eric is a normal sane kid who doesn't physically attack people out of the blue and explode whenever he doesn't get his way.

I can see from another post that you believe the case was "dismissed" - this is factually inaccurate, the case was left open and unresolved until further evidence is found. The case was found inconclusive because Taylor has conflicting reports on what happened and because of Eric's demonstrated aggressiveness and outbursts of rage when he was questioned going so far as calling Taylor a "bitch who didn't want it." From that evidence only two things are clear - Taylor may not remember things clearly and is remembering the events wrong, as well as Eric being someone one has no trouble imagining violently attacking against someone due to his temperament.

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[–] lrdcharlton 8 years ago

ANYONE would look apprehensive that Eric would call him - Eric didn't want to meet prior to go over what happened, everything is worse than ever, and add that to the rape. There was a clearly dangerous factor about meeting him at night and away from his house. Meeting at school or etc. would be one thing. That call - had red flags all over it.

You misunderstood me, the statement I made was sarcastic, so from here on I will say what I mean to avoid communication problems. I was implying that he wasn't apprehensive to meet Eric, and to me it seemed like he beamed up when he called.

Taylor has been consistent with being somebody who never wanted any actions taken against Eric and an interest in finding out the full details of what happened that night, even at the risk of his own safety. Since the beginning he has visibly experienced a traumatic experience that has emotionally drained him, that night still has a profound haunting effect on him, like it would have on anyone that was raped. Add to that, he never wanted it legally to get as far as it did and pushed everyone to let it go and let him come to terms with it. That isn't someone who wants attention or is seeking to get back at Eric for something. Those are the consistent traits of a victim trying to deal with a complex trauma and work it out in his own mind

I don't fully agree with everything here. I am going by everything they showed us so far, and Taylor's actions clearly create a situation of doubt. Also, I don't think your are extending the same level of fair insight when applying it to the two characters.I see people,not specifically you, applying each characters actions to fit a preconceived idea of what happened while also dismissing or misinterpreting elements dealing with each character to fit am already determined idea. I came into the show automatically believing that Taylor was raped. As we gained information through the season I observe behaviors of all the character and interpret them to the situation including behaviors in hindsight. Unless we are intentionally being mislead, or there are mistakes that the actors or writers invoke on the plot, something with Taylor is off. With that said Taylor's behavior relating to the rape either are questionable or don't make sense. If this were real life and I wasn't given the luxury of the omnipresent view of the audience, I wouldn't believe Taylor. But, even having the view of that we have some of his behaviors are undeniably questionable.In the end,if he didn't want anything to be done, why did he tell in the first place? He had to know that he would have had to reveal certain things that he didn't want to come out.

I can see from another post that you believe the case was "dismissed" - this is factually inaccurate, the case was left open and unresolved until further evidence is found. The case was found inconclusive because Taylor has conflicting reports on what happened and because of Eric's demonstrated aggressiveness and outbursts of rage when he was questioned going so far as calling Taylor a "bitch who didn't want it." From that evidence only two things are clear - Taylor may not remember things clearly and is remembering the events wrong, as well as Eric being someone one has no trouble imagining violently attacking against someone due to his temperament.

I should not have said dismissed, I meant that charges weren't followed through.I know full well that it isn't a closed case and more evidence would help the case.

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[–] Stiles5339 8 years ago

I saw relief that Eric wanted to talk, because they might be able to get this over and done with finally. But, I also saw apprehension and hesitation afterwards because it is such a strange request. As said, meeting at school is one thing - "will you meet me at this random location late at night?" Still surprised he went, but not really since teens often don't think things through.

Of course if we were only allowed to see what the police have, we would have no view on the case from Taylor's side. The police have no case and I'm surprised they followed it for as long as they did. It was a victim's claim case where the victim doesn't want to claim anything and all you have to work off of is the victim's mother (whom the victim isn't telling anything either). The police had no case simply because Taylor didn't really want to tell them anything. So, only seeing it from the police angle, of course it would be suspect because we have a victim who doesn't want to say anything.

They key problem with Eric is we've seen him act violently and whenever asked about Taylor not wanting to comply he snaps in an outburst of anger seething about how Taylor is a bitch and being angry that Taylor changes his mind about wanting it. Those two things are highly suspect of somebody who is more than capable of hurting someone else, if not Taylor then someone else who didn't do as he wanted. If you're not willing to see the sudden violence and anger that is in Eric, then you are the one that is blinding yourself for whatever reason.

He told his mother then tried to get her to not do anything. Anyone going through psychological trauma can't keep it bottled inside forever or it will eat them apart. Thus, he did what most people do and as he did in the previous episode - he sought comfort in his mother. It's asking a whole freaking lot of someone to experience a trauma and keep absolutely silent about it.

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[–] lrdcharlton 8 years ago

I've seen the post that stated that those behind the scenes have stated a rape indeed took place, and that's were my frustration comes from concerning the show. You can reconcile some of Taylor's behavior as typical of a rape victim, but I still don't agree with some points with you. I am very aware of Eric's disposition and violent streak. And I think if a rape occurred, it was him. I also considered Wes as the possible attacker,but that would be too convenient. At this point I am not even going to try and guess what really happened. Have a sneaking suspicion that a big WTF reveal will happen, or something that nobody would or could suspect or guess will happen.

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[–] 8 years ago

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[–] mme3924-1 8 years ago

What I understood was that Eric kept texting Taylor after the party saying they needed to talk about what happened. Taylor refused. I thought it was because he already knew they had done "something" to him, as he told his mother, and didn't trust Eric or want to talk to him.

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[–] Mike-donit 8 years ago

Even when Taylor was at his boyfriend/lover house, the guy started to kiss him and hold his neck and said you fo like it rough, Taylor was kissing him back, then pulled back and said "no" then walked off. It's bad that he starts up something then says no in the middle. It's hard for a guy who is REALLY horny and want to climax to stop when the other person was willing and even initiated the act. Taylor would've been cool with Eric still and continue to seek a relationship with him as they're both curious, BUT, the pics and hazing ruined any chance of that.

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[–] Stiles5339 8 years ago

As everyone has said since the very beginning, it was a traumatic experience that his mind blocked out and it returned upon seeing visual evidence from that night. Psychologically that happens all the time. Taylor has repeatedly stayed true to character. Eric on the other hand is someone who has repeatedly shown that he's prone to violent and aggressive sudden outbursts whenever he doesn't get things to go his way or whenever somebody is acting the way he doesn't want - those are the kinds of people who typically do rape someone since it follows along with the aggressive outburts whenever anyone doesn't act accordingly.

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[–] bens33 8 years ago

Well, first of all I don't get "torn" over fictional characters, and neither should you.
I believe Eric raped Taylor.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

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[–] blindvias-071407 8 years ago

When Eric was talking to the police, that scene had a flashback to Eric in his hospital bed, thinking what to say. To me, the writers were telling us that Eric's story is fabricated. What we don't know exactly is why? The team agreed to hide the truth to protect Kevin, right? Was Eric part of that?

We know Eric was pissed that he got suspended by the coach when others were guilty. But guilty of what? I wonder if we will ever know.

I would not be surprised if Taylor changed his mind at the party. We don't know for sure who left semen on him.

Eric only likes to make out. So if he did penetrate Taylor, they were not making love. But I still am not convinced it was Eric that penetrated Taylor.

Remember when Kevin's dad yelled at Kevin and asked 'Did you touch that boy?'

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[–] FabinhoDantasFlappers 8 years ago

Everything is possible.
I admire Eric more than Taylor as a person. He faces things. There´s something about Taylor... he´s awfully dubious to me.
But about the rape, the truth is... we´ll never know.

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[–] blindvias-071407 8 years ago

The story presents a fundamental concept that it is not OK to penetrate someone that is under the influence of alcohol and drugs. The story also presents the difficult circumstances the victim faces.

Honestly, it does not matter how much someone indicates wanting sex. Once they've been drugged, it is likely a criminal issue when they are penetrated sexually.

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[–] lalaw08 8 years ago

I've never doubted that Taylor was raped.
I think he lied about other facts surrounding the situation (like being "drugged" vs. getting high), but not being raped.
To the comments by other posters: Taylor could have been texting Eric afterwards because he wanted to find out wtf happened while he was passed out. Or to ask Eric to help him get the pictures taken down, etc.

I don't remember the exact sequence of events at the beginning, but from what I recall, Taylor has been consistent.

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[–] lrdcharlton 8 years ago

He has been consistent? The main reason his claim was dismissed was his dishonesty.Actually,yes,he has been consistent, consistently evasive and dishonest.

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[–] Stiles5339 8 years ago

Your post has one main problem in it: the case wasn't dismissed at all, it became a cold case because it was inconclusive as to what side is telling the truth. If the case was cut and dry, it would have been dismissed. However, the case was never closed and remains unresolved until there is more evidence that points one way or another. That is what happens to the majority of rape cases because evidence is very hard to come by, statistically most rapists do get away with it.

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[–] engle_james 8 years ago

In last Wednesday's edition of USA Today, show runner John Ridley confirmed the character of Taylor was raped. Maybe the show didn't make it obvious enough, when they showed an unconscious Taylor being held up by the guys so they could take photos of him in his underwear?

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[–] lrdcharlton 8 years ago

Wrong wording, I was saying that because of his actions charges weren't brought up.

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[–] Stiles5339 8 years ago

Most of the time the charges move in no direction. Most rape cases aren't dismissed, they're just left unresolved directly in the middle like it was here. So saying it's falsified because no charges were brought up is, in effect, saying most rape cases are falsified because charges weren't brought up. It played how, sadly, how most rape cases do.

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[–] noother32 8 years ago

There is a difference between a claim and a case, and his claim of being raped was dismissed which is why no arrest were made and no charges were filed. The case has been dropped until new evidence arises, thus all charges against the suspects have been dropped. So as of now there is no case and seems to be nobody even talking about reopening this cold case. The only thing that may reopen it are the events from last episode, but that will be the job of the defense to try to get that done. The prosecution is not going to be bothered with reopening something that could prevent them from getting a conviction when it benefits them to say the claim was unfounded and the police stopped investigating.

Your son, anyone connected to the allegations would only be charged if new or additional

Hello?
Miss Blaine?
[Sighs] The police called. They're not gonna... There are not gonna be any charges. They're not gonna arrest anybody.
So... It's done. I need to know from you that... That this is over, that you're done putting us through this.
Okay.

This is not moving forward, but the county prosecutor wants to reserve the right to...

This suggests they are not even considering reopening it, but are simply doing their due diligence, by reserving the right to reopen it, if new evidence is brought to them as it would appear the police will not be seeking new evidence. So the police investigation of this matter is at a close unofficially, and officially they will not be seeking any new evidence themselves.
My empire of doom begins now!!

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[–] jamiegirl-933-377412 8 years ago

I really believe something BAD sexual happened to Taylor. I don't think of is a clear cut WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON type of situation. I can say I believe with all my heart something bad happened to Taylor and I believe Eric isn't as guilty as he seems.

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[–] Rizarion 8 years ago

I believe them both somewhat. I believe Eric when he says he thought he was just giving Taylor what he wanted, because of the texts. I believe Taylor in that he probably didn't feel up to it because of the bad booze, but I don't believe he ever verbally rescinded his consent to Eric.

Sorta like when his friend grabbed him by the neck, and said you like that because apparently they'd done that before, and Taylor afterwards said no. While his friend was doing this, Taylor never verbally said he didn't want it, it was only afterwards.

So Taylor goes to the party, hooks up with Eric who's under the impression Taylor is ready to get down. Taylor having just drank some bad booze isn't really down, but doesn't verbalize this to Eric, and it's not until afterwards that he reveals he didn't want it.

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