MovieChat Forums > Soaked in Bleach (2015) Discussion > 'Unconscious' at 1.5mg/L heroin - rubbis...

'Unconscious' at 1.5mg/L heroin - rubbish!


I sat through this nonsense (whereby some slimeball is cashing in on all his illicitly recorded tapes) right up until the point where various qualified persons stated that it was not possible for someone with 1.5mg/L blood level of heroin in them to shoot themselves because they'd be dead/unconscious/whatever.

At that point I started thinking there might be some weight to this slimeball's story, so I did some searching and within about ten seconds found this: https://ndarc.med.unsw.edu.au/sites/default/files/ndarc/resources/T.R%20039.pdf which is a study of heroin users - what's interesting is that the users have been paid $20 to come in and answer questions and have their blood taken, and that several had very high levels (eg in the 1.45mg/L range). Now bear in mind that's not just after they've injected - and they've managed to get themselves to this clinic with those levels and answer all sorts of questions. Clearly some heroin addicts can operate almost normally with extremely high levels of morphine in their blood. The other thing that's interesting in the study is the length of time high levels can stay in the body - so these people aren't giving themselves shots that produce 1.5mg/L all at once, it's a level that builds up over 10 hours or more after two, three or more shots.

So clearly it's not unreasonable that a heavy user such as Cobain could have injected himself several times that day, culminating in the last hit, after which he would have been perfectly capable of putting all the works away in the cigar box and shooting himself.

Odd that the film makers are unable to use google like what I did. But then I guess there'd have been no money for the pond-life that made this.

This is a disgusting film made for the edification of a nobody, and only hurts the family and friends of Cobain.

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[deleted]

Yeah, sure, I could either believe this guy: 'Wecht became famous appearing on television and consulting on deaths with a high media profile ... On January 28, 2008, a federal trial against Wecht began, on charges of public corruption'

Or I could give more weight to a clinical trial on heroin users.




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[deleted]

>can we see your Ph.D in Medicine and/or toxicology?


this made me lol, thank you.

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[deleted]

Wecht is always the Dr. Conspiracy theorists turn to. He's the guy who questioned the bullet wounds in the JFK assassination too. He just likes to be in the spotlight

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[deleted]

[deleted]

"Unconscious at 1.5mg/l heroin...rubbish"


The amount injected was around 225mg or higher. The experts state he would have been unconscious within seconds and dead within minutes.

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No evidence for that whatsoever that I've seen. For me the bottom line is that the claim was that someone with a blood level of 1.5mg/L couldn't shoot themselves with a shotgun has been shown to be nonsense. It's simply not true to make that claim.

Which tells you all you really need to know about this unpleasant little film.



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[deleted]

Celebrities, Public Figures, and Limited Purpose Public Figures have to prove more than you or I when suing for defamation.

You and I just have to prove that it is damaging and false.

Celebrities have to prove that it is damaging, false and not a false opinion, state of mind when the statements were made, and that the false statement was made with actual malice.

Actual malice is knowing for a fact, not just thinking or doubting, that something you say is absolutely untrue.

Here is information and a definition:

Celebrities, politicians, high-ranking or powerful government officials, and others with power in society are generally considered public figures/officials and are required to prove actual malice. Unlike these well-known and powerful individuals, your shy neighbor is likely to be a private figure who is only required to prove negligence if you publish something defamatory about her.

It should be noted that the actual malice standard focuses on the defendant's actual state of mind at the time of publication. Unlike the negligence standard discussed later in this section, the actual malice standard is not measured by what a reasonable person would have published or investigated prior to publication. Instead, the plaintiff must produce clear and convincing evidence that the defendant actually knew the information was false or entertained serious doubts as to the truth of his publication. In making this determination, a court will look for evidence of the defendant's state of mind at the time of publication and will likely examine the steps he took in researching, editing, and fact checking his work. It is generally not sufficient, however, for a plaintiff to merely show that the defendant didn't like her, failed to contact her for comment, knew she had denied the information, relied on a single biased source, or failed to correct the statement after publication.

Not surprisingly, this is a very difficult standard for a plaintiff to establish. Indeed, in only a handful of cases over the last decades have plaintiffs been successful in establishing the requisite actual malice to prove defamation.

http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/proving-fault-actual-malice-and-negligence

^The source link^


So as you can see, it is nearly impossible for a celebrity in the United States to sue for defamation and win. That is why many celebrities sue tabloids outside of the U.S. but never sue for the same false statements printed inside the U.S.

Even if Courtney Love could prove to the point of fact that she was in no way involved in the murder of Kurt Cobain, which would be extremely hard to do... she would still have no case, because it is nearly impossible to prove that these lies (or truths, because none of us REALLY know what happened) were stated with actual malice.

In the U.S. you can say almost anything you want about a celebrity and they cannot successfully sue you. They can send cease and desist letters, they can threaten to sue, but they won't be able to win a case against you.

"Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again." -- C.S.Lewis

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Celebrities, Public Figures, and Limited Purpose Public Figures have to prove more than you or I when suing for defamation.

You and I just have to prove that it is damaging and false.

Celebrities have to prove that it is damaging, false and not a false opinion, state of mind when the statements were made, and that the false statement was made with actual malice.

Actual malice is knowing for a fact, not just thinking or doubting, that something you say is absolutely untrue.

Here is information and a definition:

Celebrities, politicians, high-ranking or powerful government officials, and others with power in society are generally considered public figures/officials and are required to prove actual malice. Unlike these well-known and powerful individuals, your shy neighbor is likely to be a private figure who is only required to prove negligence if you publish something defamatory about her.

It should be noted that the actual malice standard focuses on the defendant's actual state of mind at the time of publication. Unlike the negligence standard discussed later in this section, the actual malice standard is not measured by what a reasonable person would have published or investigated prior to publication. Instead, the plaintiff must produce clear and convincing evidence that the defendant actually knew the information was false or entertained serious doubts as to the truth of his publication. In making this determination, a court will look for evidence of the defendant's state of mind at the time of publication and will likely examine the steps he took in researching, editing, and fact checking his work. It is generally not sufficient, however, for a plaintiff to merely show that the defendant didn't like her, failed to contact her for comment, knew she had denied the information, relied on a single biased source, or failed to correct the statement after publication.

Not surprisingly, this is a very difficult standard for a plaintiff to establish. Indeed, in only a handful of cases over the last decades have plaintiffs been successful in establishing the requisite actual malice to prove defamation.

http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/proving-fault-actual-malice-and-negligence

^The source link^


So as you can see, it is nearly impossible for a celebrity in the United States to sue for defamation and win. That is why many celebrities sue tabloids outside of the U.S. but never sue for the same false statements printed inside the U.S.

Even if Courtney Love could prove to the point of fact that she was in no way involved in the murder of Kurt Cobain, which would be extremely hard to do... she would still have no case, because it is nearly impossible to prove that these lies (or truths, because none of us REALLY know what happened) were stated with actual malice.

In the U.S. you can say almost anything you want about a celebrity and they cannot successfully sue you. They can send cease and desist letters, they can threaten to sue, but they won't be able to win a case against you.


Excellent post and excellent points. I'll also point out that Grant has never come out and directly said that Love killed Cobain (or had him killed or whatever), he's always danced around it and said everything just short of accusing her. If he really wanted her to sue him so bad, as he says, then he'd issue an official, on-the-record statement saying "Kurt Cobain was murdered by Courtney Love." That'd at least be a start.

You're either a troll or just an idiot with the reading comprehension skills of a cockroach.


Can't it be both?

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[deleted]

No evidence for that whatsoever that I've seen. For me the bottom line is that the claim was that someone with a blood level of 1.5mg/L couldn't shoot themselves with a shotgun has been shown to be nonsense. It's simply not true to make that claim.

Which tells you all you really need to know about this unpleasant little film.


A basic Google search will provide you with the actual injection of 225mg or higher in order to produce the level of 1.25mg/l found at autopsy.

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Utter nonsense! Where's the evidence that it was a single injection? Do you have any idea of the size of the syringe you would need to deliver that?

Again - the 1.5mg/L level would more likely be the result of three or four injections over a ten hour period. Why don't you go read up on the subject before replying? That clinical study might be a good place to start?


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Utter nonsense! Where's the evidence that it was a single injection? Do you have any idea of the size of the syringe you would need to deliver that?

Again - the 1.5mg/L level would more likely be the result of three or four injections over a ten hour period. Why don't you go read up on the subject before replying? That clinical study might be a good place to start?


Says the armchair "expert". Meanwhile, real experts have already gone on the record saying that Kurt's heroin level was three times the lethal level and that he would have been unconscious within second and dead within minutes. But don't let reality stop you. Continue to post dozens of insane rants.

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Read the clinical studies. Neither you nor I are experts, nor should we rely upon those who claim to be experts - in particular Coroners and others that deal with dead addicts will suffer from confirmation bias (look it up) because they never see live heroin addicts with 1.5 in their veins, they only see dead ones with levels varying from 0.05-1.5+. That's why you should only rely upon data that's been properly gathered and tested by an academic institution - why is why I, *yet again*, will point you to a clinical study that PROVES that people can walk around quite happily with up to 1.5mg/L running round their system.

While we're on the subject of confirmation bias, have you considered the possibility that you may be ignoring evidence that supports suicide, while over-emphasising evidence that may point to a different conclusion? By way of example you have simply denied (with no evidence) that it is possible that someone can survive 1.5 as they'd be 'dead within minutes'.

I, on the other hand, watched the movie with an open mind but then noticed there was zero attempt to actually examine the *facts* and the *evidence* in a balanced way - it was simply 90 mins of desperate attempts to find a smoking gun (if you'll excuse the analogy) that would support a conspiracy.

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Nope. You are way off. If you actually took the time to research the case you would understand that there was no real investigation at all. The cops just walked in and declared it to be a suicide within a few minutes. Case closed. Evidence was destroyed. Items weren't checked for prints until a month after his death. The lead detective told Courtney Love to destroy evidence. Courtney claimed Kurt wrote her multiple suicide notes at the scene. In fact, Kurt was never missing at all. Did you know that? Courtney lied and claimed that Kurt was missing after leaving rehab and didn't know where he was. In fact we know that she knew where he was the entire time. He went home and there were 8 phone calls placed between the house and her hotel room. So she knew he was there. Yet she calls the cops and reports him missing while pretending to be his mom. She also hired P.I. Tom Grant while knowing where Kurt was the entire time. She sent him on a goose chase until Grant found out that Kurt was at the house and left. So she purposefully kept Kurt's whereabouts from the P.I. she hired to find him! If that's not enough, she knew Kurt was lying dead in the greenhouse because she hired the electricians to specifically work on the greenhouse on April 8, 1994. The male nanny which was living at the home then immediately flew to be with Courtney leaving the home empty for when the body was found by the electricians. If you take the time to actually research the case you can practically see the entire plan unfold right before your eyes. Every action made by Courtney is consistent with a murder for hire. She forged the suicide note and it wasn't the first time she was forging notes of Kurt. Back in 1993 she forged a note in Kurt's handwriting to try to get Krist to quit the band. Kurt was murdered, plain and simple.

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Good - so you now accept that it's possible to walk around with a 1.5mg/L blood level.

This is like 12 Angry Men...



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No, it's not. Because Kurt didn't inject 1.5mg into his body. Instead, 225mg was injected into his body by his killer. You are halfway there but still not realizing that 225mg = murder. You know that 225mg is a freaking huge amount so instead of realizing that he was murdered you jump to the conclusion that the 225mg is wrong. It's not wrong. That's the level needed to produce 1.52mg/l at autopsy. Kurt was murdered.

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[deleted]

Oh dear - you and others have made the flawed assumption that a heroin addict will wait for the morphine level in their blood to drop to 0mg/L before they take their next dose. How many more times does this need to be explained?


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Thank you

Conceive Deceive or Leave
https://disqus.com/home/channel/conceievedeceiveorleave/

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Word.

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Kurt Cobain probably walked around everyday with a lethal dose of heroin in his body. He was an addict and a rich one. So he had copious amount of drugs and copious amounts in his body. His body had such a high tolerance to heroin and he had to inject more and more. Thats where the lethal amount come from. I use to be a meth junkie 20 yrs ago and meth only stays in your system 3 days. I was clean for 21 days and still coming up positive with very high levels in my system. I took aproximatley 45 days to get a negative test. Everyones body is different and metabolises drugs differently. Some people can inject copious amounts at on time and others can snort just a tiny line and it can kill them. My thought, he commited suicide. Courtney Love was to strung out herself to be that slick.

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Courtney Love was to strung out herself to be that slick.

That's what I was thinking too. I admit, the documentary does raise a ton of red flags, but Love was too unstable to have perpetrated this. Even if she had help from someone else standing to make money on Kurt's death, how could that person(s) have trusted that she could keep it together enough to do everything she needed to do to fool everyone. Then again, she is a master manipulator, so who knows. I tend to believe it was suicide, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was murder.

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[deleted]

Keep in mind the experts were hand picked who agreed with the heroin levels making it "impossible" Other experts, such as Dr. Donald Reay, chief medical examiner on scene at the time said he did not find the levels troubling and it was a matter of tolerance. The user can up their dosage over time to where lethal levels for a regular user may not be the same to a heavy user. Anyone who has experience with drugs or medication can confirm this, including me.

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[deleted]

rather than from clinical experience which his background did not qualify him to reach

What does this mean? His experience as a doctor and medical examiner is not sufficient? In that case we cannot trust Cyril Welch opinion either as he was around from early days. Both testimonies will be stricken from record.

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'Recreationally, daily heroin doses of 5-1500 mg have been reported, with an average daily dose of 300-500 mg. Addicts may inject heroin 2-4 times per day'.
Source http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/research/job185drugs/morphine.htm

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The SPD already admitted it was a lethal dose. So there is no more controversy over who is right or wrong. The SPD has agreed it was a lethal dose and that it alone could have killed him.

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But I thought SPD botched the entire investigation and can't be trusted?

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225mg is not a lethal dose of heroin! And what expertise does a Police department have in such matters? Let's see what proper doctors say:

'There is no upper limit to the amount of tolerance that can occur in a heavy user. Several studies done in the 1920s gave users doses of 1,600–1,800 mg of heroin, and no adverse effects were reported'
Source: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(06)68804-1/abstract



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[deleted]

Oh dear - clearly you're unaware of exactly what the Lancet is... it's the world's leading peer-reviewed medical journal. So they probably know what they're talking about.

Again - '1800mg administered without ill-effect'.


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[deleted]

Good - so you too now admit it's perfectly possible he wasn't incapacitated by whatever doses he took during those last hours, given that 1800mg shots were given without ill effect during a medical trial.

So unless you have compelling *evidence* to the contrary can we now all agree that we don't need to debate this point any further (as clinical trials, academics and government agencies have provided the evidence supporting him being perfectly capable of near-normal function)?

...it really is like 12 Angry Men.

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[deleted]

*My* logic? The difficulty with arguing with someone like you is that you don't really take an academic approach to the issue so you're unable to make reasoned conclusions when presented with peer-reviewed research from experts in the field of (in this case) toxicology.

Both you and I have not expertise whatsoever in this field, so the correct course of action is to go back to the research (being in the main clinical tests on people who have ingested huge amounts of heroin under controlled conditions) and see whether the assertions made in the film stand up.

Given that clinical publications such as the Lancet, government departments, universities and other academic institutions all appear to agree that very large doses of heroin can be given to acclimatised users without ill effect, I think we can now agree that the title of this thread is true - unless you can find any contrary clinical studies?

You, too, seem to have given up the fight on this point by saying in effect "yeah, well, you're right but that's only 10% of the case". I'm not sure who exactly decided that percentage, or even what it means in evidential terms, but I guess we're now down to just '9 Angry Teenagers'...

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[deleted]

Can you read?

"Given that clinical publications such as the Lancet, government departments, universities and other academic institutions all appear to agree that very large doses of heroin can be given to acclimatised users without ill effect, I think we can now agree that the title of this thread is true - unless you can find any contrary clinical studies?"


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[deleted]

Go read the title of the thread again, read the false claims made in the film as detailed in my very first post, then read this again:

"Given that clinical publications such as the Lancet, government departments, universities and other academic institutions all appear to agree that very large doses of heroin can be given to acclimatised users without ill effect, I think we can now agree that the title of this thread is true - unless you can find any contrary clinical studies?"

See those last three words? That's what you need to find in order to deal with the weight of clinical evidence supporting the fact that users can function 'without ill effect' after massive doses far exceeding the amount Cobain may have injected. It's a simple task if what you suggest is true, right?




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I don't know why you're going on about lethal doses when I can personally testify, as a former drug addict, that they vary widely across the board based on tolerance and length of use. Within months of me starting drugs, the normal daily dose it took for me to feel euphoria had increased by 10 times the original dose. If I had started out taking that much, I likely would have died. The drugs also had a cumulative effect whereby if I continued taking daily doses, they'd stack on top of one another and produce a longer effect. I never waited long enough for the amount of drugs in my system to drop off before taking another dose, so it was never like starting from zero every time I wanted to get high again. The withdrawals in between doses was too uncomfortable for that. When I went to rehab, I was shocked to meet people who could tolerate 3 times the amount *I* was on. I didn't even think it was humanly possible. The drugs they gave them to counteract the withdrawals had to be prescribed in insanely high doses because their tolerance for their addiction drug was so great.

And before you call ME a paid blogger, I don't even care for Courtney. Plus I would love to be able to sit on my ass all day and post defenses for her instead of working in my high stress job.

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The official SPD spokesperson already admitted it was a lethal dose. So all of your claims that it wasn't is now moot.

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[deleted]

No, I am not claiming such. I'm claiming that the point of whether or not the amount of heroin was lethal has now been settled as the SPD admits it was lethal. So any further arguments claiming it was not lethal are moot.

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Source, please.

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The video with Det. Cyzenski (msp?), the official SPD spokesperson. It's been posted several times now here on this board and can be found on YouTube.

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One thing that's hardly mentioned is how skinny Kurt was, what did he weigh? 110 pounds? You could have blown him over with a feather. That much heroin in such a small man would have rendered him unconscious in seconds, dead as a doornail in minutes. I find it so ridiculous that some people actually believe he injected himself with such a huge dose of heroin, then meticulously put away all his drug paraphernalia, picked up a shotgun and shot himself. 



This will never end cause I want more. More, give me more, give me more...Vikings/If I Had A Heart

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Peaches Geldof was smaller than Kurt and she had injected more than Kurt when she died. She wasn't found with the needle in her arm and she was alone with her baby son. She had been clean for a number of months and they suspect she had a relapse forgetting that her tolerance had been lowered or they think the batch she had bought was a lot stronger than what she was used to.

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Peaches Geldof's death is suspicious as well as she died right after making public accusations of pedophilia against high ranking people.

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And I thought you couldn't get any more delusional. First Kurt and now Peaches Geldof. I guess since you couldn't come up with a valid response Peaches death has become a conspiracy.

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Where the source that she had more in her system than Kurt?


I'm just curious because I read up on this and they handled her death correctly, unlike the SPD. It took three months to officially declare her cause of death after full reviewing the toxicology results. They announced Kurt's cause of death within 2 hours and without even knowing the toxicology results.


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I got that information from this newspaper report:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2702535/Peaches-Geldofs-heroin-overdose-10-times-bigger-one-killed-Paula-Yates.html

"She had 3mg per litre of diamorphine, the chemical name for heroin, in her blood.Her mother had 0.3mg when she died".

I think the SPD were under pressure to release the cause of death and from what they could see it was obvious to them what happened (note found at scene, gun in hand). Doesn't make it right but I think that's why it was rushed. Kurt's death also happened 21 years. Perhaps things have changed over the years. I am no expert in when police teams announce the cause of death. I guess their wording should have been 'an apparent suicide'.

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That's interesting because it displays how variable the dose can be that one can overdose on. Another point form this story was that it was an accidental overdose and she wasn't known to be depressed or suicidal.

"Diamorphine is basically heroin. It's a pharmaceutical or purified version of heroin. It and morphine have the same effect. Diamorphine isn't stronger than morphine, but it does work quicker, so will sometimes be chosen for that reason."

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2009/may/21/medicine-wrong-doses-diamorphine

As far as the SPD, there really is no excuse but a rush to judgment and shoddy police work. The basically broke almost every rule of a death investigation. I think the rush to judgment was set up by previous (false) police reports that Cobain was on the run and suicidal planted by Courtney. She was also in constant contact with at least Det. Terry the whole time. So, as far as they knew, it was an easy case because the suicide trail was already set up. Either way, too many mistakes were made. That's why people demand an investigation by an independent agency.

We still do not know all of the specifics about Kurt's toxicology and exactly what kind of heroin he took. We just have what the SPD released. Supposedly before Det. Terry was killed, he was trying to find the source of the heroine that Kurt took.

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I understand that, but what we're trying to tell you is that there is no magic "lethal dose" for all persons, like a one-size-fits-all sort of thing. What is lethal to one may only get another slightly high. If I had started off taking drugs at the amount I eventually worked up to, it would have been lethal. And even when I got bad, if I had suddenly taken what some of the other people in my rehab were taking when they came in, it would have been lethal for me whereas, for them, it was their recreational dosage. You need to spend time with addicts and know your way around drugs (not that I advise it) to understand that many of us walk a fine line between life and death based on our experience and length of use. I was already on the extreme end of doses when I went to rehab and yet there were people there taking three times as much as I was. You can't arbitrarily pull some magic number out and ascribe it as THE lethal dose for all users. Anyone who has any practical experience with addicts knows it just doesn't work that way.

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I understand that, but what we're trying to tell you is that there is no magic "lethal dose" for all persons, like a one-size-fits-all sort of thing.


I see this point and I would pose a question: How do you measure one's tolerance? You can't. Do you know Kurt's tolerance? You don't. Heroin is also the most easily overdosed drug out there. People say Kurt had a high tolerance and he also overdosed easily quite a few times. I hate to say, note taken but I take these personal accounts with a grain of salt because they just can't be verified.

Generally speaking, a blood morphine 1.52MG/L equals 225 - 240mg of heroin injected and commonly known as an average lethal dose. Average meaning one can overdose with less than that or more. So with the information available what the coroner and Seattle medical examiner confirmed as such. Also, saying that Kurt body had the most heroine in his system from an overdose than they ever found ever in Seattle.

That's why the coroner's report and the blood results need to be released and examined. If it wasn't a botched investigation, they would be able to know if he died from overdose before the gunshot by how much the lungs were filled and other factors that would determine the same.

Is that such an unreasonable proposition?

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[deleted]

[deleted]

The SPD also ruled it a suicide. So there is no more controversy over who is right or wrong. It was a suicide. Debate over

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"For years, a collection of authorities, experts and media, have argued over the amount of heroin in Cobain’s system, but in order for him to have registered a heroin blood level of 1.52 mg per liter three days after being deceased, he would have had to have had a much higher dose upon the time of injection.

Cobain’s blood morphine level of 1.52 mg per liter at post-mortem indicated a dose closer to 225-240 mg per liter intravenous injection before his death."

http://21stcenturywire.com/2015/03/17/damage-control-does-cobain-doc-montage-of-heck-whitewash-the-singers-death/



This will never end cause I want more. More, give me more, give me more...Vikings/If I Had A Heart

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Its all about tolerance.

I have personally known people so deep into their addiction that they had to shoot $400. a day just to function. Thats not getting high thats just getting well.

Also when you use-not every bit in your system has gone away. (half life or whatever)

For example:
I do my morning shot at 8am and I decide to use again at noon-even though I am not feeling the 8am dose anymore its still in my system and the noon shot adds to it. So now I have double the amount in my system

Does that make sense?

Also what would be an OD level to an opiate naive person is just barely getting well to an addict who is quite opiate tolerant.

Couple all that with someone who is not limited by money/access your addiction can get out of hand really fast. Really fast.
Most addicts are limited by money so their addiction has a cap on it.Committing crimes to afford more ends up in withdrawal in a cell floor.

Conceive Deceive or Leave
https://disqus.com/home/channel/conceievedeceiveorleave/

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I agree 100 percent.

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It's not about tolerance. The SPD spokesperson already admitted it was a lethal level. Please keep up.

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Ok so you believe the SPD. The SPD admitted it was a suicide and explained the gun " bullet" position. Glad we are in agreement on that.

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Kurt Cobain probably walked around everyday with a lethal dose of heroin in his body. He was an addict and a rich one. So he had copious amount of drugs and copious amounts in his body. His body had such a high tolerance to heroin and he had to inject more and more. Thats where the lethal amount come from. I use to be a meth junkie 20 yrs ago and meth only stays in your system 3 days. I was clean for 21 days and still coming up positive with very high levels in my system. I took aproximatley 45 days to get a negative test. Everyones body is different and metabolises drugs differently. Some people can inject copious amounts at on time and others can snort just a tiny line and it can kill them. My thought, he commited suicide. Courtney Love was to strung out herself to be that slick.

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Your opinion is uneducated. It's extremely easy to believe he killed himself when you know nothing of the case and have done no research into it. The world is filled with people like you who automatically believe they know the truth.

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 The world is filled with people like you who automatically believe they know the truth.


Your lack of self-awareness is stunning.

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Your lack of self-awareness is stunning.


And you did it again! Thanks for proving my point perfectly.

You see, I started off believing Kurt killed himself. In fact, I hated Tom Grant and believed he was just out to get a buck. It wasn't until late 1996 that I finally took the time to go over Grant's info that I finally realized that I was wrong and that Kurt was murdered. You too will continue to believe that Kurt killed himself and go on your happy way, never knowing you are ignorant, until you actually take the time to research the case. That's just how it is.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beg_a_question

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Wrong. The belief that you think I am guilty of a logical fallacy when you resort to unscientific and uneducated opinions while having no true knowledge of this case is quite laughable.

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When it comes to drugs and shooting up, I am very well educated. Drug addict know very well what I am speaking about.

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When it comes to drugs and shooting up, I am very well educated. Drug addict know very well what I am speaking about.


The SPD has already admitted the dose Kurt was injected with was lethal. All the talk of "tolerance" is now meaningless. Even the experts have weighed in saying the dose that Kurt had in his system would have been lethal for even the most severest of addicts.

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The SPD has already admitted the dose Kurt was injected with was lethal. All the talk of "tolerance" is now meaningless. Even the experts have weighed in saying the dose that Kurt had in his system would have been lethal for even the most severest of addicts.


Source?

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Source?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBsYzLRYNMY

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Since when is Grant an expert in toxicology?

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Not Grant. That guy in the video is the official SPD spokesperson. He admits the dose was lethal.

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Do you have any idea what an unbiased, scientific source is? You people are just as bad as global warming deniers and 9/11 truthers when it comes to cherry-picking evidence

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Do you have any idea what an unbiased, scientific source is? You people are just as bad as global warming deniers and 9/11 truthers when it comes to cherry-picking evidence


When the SPD spokesperson admits in a media interview that the dose Kurt was injected with was lethal then that puts to rest any speculation by amateurs, such as yourself, that it's only a matter of "tolerance". Experts have already weighed in, including a new medical examiner that has already spoken to the SPD about this. The experts agree that the level of heroin Kurt was injected with incredibly high and for the vast majority of severe addicts would have been fatal. You have no leg to stand on in this debate. It's over. There's absolutely nothing you can say to counter this. The SPD has conceded it's true.

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A simple 30 second google search is all that's required to find that that's patently false.

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A simple 30 second google search is all that's required to find that that's patently false.


You've already been provided with proof. Learn to give up gracefully.

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So why would Courtney go through all the trouble of killing him when he ODed plenty of times, in Rome he was even in a coma and all she had to do was wait for a few minutes and that would be it. She was always alone with him, nobody would know and she would inherit it all, he had no signed wills. Why bother with suicide which could possibly link to her and with someone like Grant who is a known liar and would do anything for money ?

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So why would Courtney go through all the trouble of killing him when he ODed plenty of times, in Rome he was even in a coma and all she had to do was wait for a few minutes and that would be it. She was always alone with him, nobody would know and she would inherit it all, he had no signed wills. Why bother with suicide which could possibly link to her and with someone like Grant who is a known liar and would do anything for money ?


He didn't OD plenty of times. There was only 2 alleged ODs and believers in the murder theory feel that each one was in fact a failed murder attempt. In the first attempt Kurt had taken heroin and passed out. Courtney claimed it was an OD but there's no proof of such. Courtney then admitted she drugged him against his will and while he was unconscious. The drugs she gave him could have killed him but he miraculously survived. The second time in Rome is believed by murder proponents that it was the second murder attempt. Courtney waited a couple of hours after finding Kurt allegedly unconscious from an OD before she called an ambulance. Who the hell waits for 2 hours before calling an ambulance? Was she hoping he would have been dead by then?

Grant is not a known liar. Courtney Love is a known liar. Grand does not have the reputation of doing anything for money and has never gotten rich off of this. Courtney Love does have the reputation of doing anything for money and definitely got rich off of Kurt's death.

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When the SPD spokesperson admits in a media interview that the dose Kurt was injected with was lethal then that puts to rest any speculation by amateurs, such as yourself, that it's only a matter of "tolerance". Experts have already weighed in, including a new medical examiner that has already spoken to the SPD about this. The experts agree that the level of heroin Kurt was injected with incredibly high and for the vast majority of severe addicts would have been fatal. You have no leg to stand on in this debate. It's over. There's absolutely nothing you can say to counter this. The SPD has conceded it's true.

For the trillionth time (and I'll keep saying it till it sinks in): AN AUTOPSY REPORT AND A TOXICOLOGY REPORT ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Let me walk you through this...
•An autopsy is conducted right after a body is discovered. An autopsy does not give accurate toxicology levels, it merely confirms the presence of drugs in the system.

•A toxicology report encompasses a variety of tests done over the course of about three to six weeks. These results then require interpretive analysis from forensic toxicologists.

•The SPD has never seen the toxicology report. Tom Grant has never seen the toxicology report. You have never seen the toxicology report. It has never in any way been officially released or leaked to the public. We have no idea what Kurt's heroin levels were. Period.

The second time in Rome is believed by murder proponents that it was the second murder attempt.

You still have yet to offer any sort of reasonable explanation for the plausibility of this scenario.

Grant is not a known liar. Courtney Love is a known liar. Grand does not have the reputation of doing anything for money and has never gotten rich off of this. Courtney Love does have the reputation of doing anything for money and definitely got rich off of Kurt's death.

Grant absolutely is a known liar. "Kurt Cobain was injected with three times the lethal dose of heroin" is a lie. Every time a conspiracy theorist repeats that phrase, they are spreading a demonstrably false lie intentionally propagated by Grant. Also worth noting is the fact that Grant started charging $150 an hour to talk about the case the day after he announced he was retiring from having anything more to do with it.



Bottom line: Anyone who cites the "lethal dose" possesses an extremely poor understanding of how toxicology reports actually work, has absolutely no credibility and isn't worth anybody's time to argue with.

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[deleted]

"The SPD has never seen the toxicology report." BS

"Det. Ciesynski's review, according to the report, included examining "the case file from SPD records vault... all of the remaining evidence from SPD Evidence," photographs of the death scene, the autopsy report, and the autopsy and toxicology report, as well as interviews with the Chief Medical Examiner, and one of the original case detectives now retired."

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-clues-emerge-in-police-review-of-cobain-suicide-file/

Wrong. If you had actually read the police report of the review (available in the article you linked, actually: http://static.ow.ly/docs/SPD_policefile_27df.pdf), you'd clearly see that Ciesynski is still going off of the 1.52 mg/L figure as quoted from the 04/14/94 article in The Seattle Post-Intelligencer. In fact, it's even in the section titled "Autopsy Report."

Toxicology reports are private unless there is an ongoing homicide investigation. As the conspiracy crowd constantly points out, the SPD ruled the death a suicide within a few moments of arriving on the scene and had no further interest in the case. Thus, the toxicology report reverted back to being a private document delivered directly to the deceased's next of kin (i.e. Courtney). I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Ciesynski probably didn't knock on Courtney's door and ask if she could go dig out the report as part of his "review" of the case.

Nice try, though.

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Arkraider85,

Just stop. Your b.s. attempt to troll this thread is just plain boring. The toxicology report is a part of the case file and to suggest that the SPD never saw it is just patently absurd. The 1.52 figure has been confirmed as the correct figure by the SPD.

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Let me tell you about a little thing called "evidence":

http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/heroin/heroin2.htm

In the words of somebody who actually knows what they're talking about:

One of the greatest risks of being a heroin addict is death from heroin overdose. Each year about one percent of all heroin addicts in the United States die from an overdose of heroin despite having developed a fantastic tolerance to the effects of the dr ug. In a nontolerant person the estimated lethal dose of heroin may range from 200 to 500 mg, but addicts have tolerated doses as high as 1800 mg without even being sick[1].


Even if I were to concede that the 1.52 mg/L figure (equivalent to 225 mg) was correct, your assertion is still demonstrably false.

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Your link doesn't work. And it's 225-240 mg/l. That amount is exceptionally high. It's so high that the experts have stated he would have been unconscious within seconds, not minutes. This means there wasn't enough time for Kurt to have take out the needles and placed the caps back on them, to take off the tube, to put everything in the cigar box, to unroll his sleeves, to pick up the shot gun, to move a few feet away, to have lied down, and to have shot himself. You don't get it and probably never will. The drug immediately is carried to the brain due to it being injected. With every passing second the user's mental state deteriorates. So Kurt would not be in his right mind. His ability to coordinate his physical activity to perform these actions would be impossible. He would be nodding off and incapable of doing these things. Why do we know it was murder? Because if Kurt actually injected himself then he would have died of an OD. He would have gone unconscious within seconds and then within minutes he would have stopped breathing and died. The fact that he was shot is proof that it was murder. Factor in everything else and it's clear as day that he was murdered.

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Your link doesn't work.


http://druglibrary.org/schaffer/heroin/heroin2.htm

FIXED.

And it's 225-240 mg/l.


You said in your last post that it was 1.52 mg/L. So which is it? Or are you just confused about the difference between mg and mg/L?

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You said in your last post that it was 1.52 mg/L. So which is it? Or are you just confused about the difference between mg and mg/L?


I'm not confused. You are just uneducated. 1.52 mg/l equals a dose of 225 mg to 240 mg of heroin. I still don't think you comprehend just how amazingly high the dose was.

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1.52 mg/l equals a dose of 225 mg to 240 mg of heroin.


Which is exactly what I said in my previous post. You're either a troll or just an idiot with the reading comprehension skills of a cockroach.

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Okay, nwt it's proven that not only do you not even read your own replies but are now unable to even follow a conversation in a thread. Do yourself a favor and stop replying to me.

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Actually he did OD many times which is collaborated by numerous people, from the nanny to patty from hole. Grant is a liar and a complete money whore, look him up and read on him. Also read a bit more about Kurt and Nirvana, Heavier than Heaven is good, check up on interviews. Kurt was completely suicidal. Courtney didnt wait two hours in Rome, that is complete BS. And people from the tour claimed he sought out any pills he could find to help him sleep. If she wanted to kill him she wouldnt call the ambulance at all. And if that didnt kill him she couldve simply injected him with some extra heroin, nobody would be the wiser, he was a infamous junkie.
If she wanted him dead, there was nothing easier than that for her. Just switch his dope for a stronger one, she couldve offer to inject him and overdose him etc... etc.. The shotgun(that he bought and a few times expressed the desire to kill himself and was obseessed with having the bullets at home when he gets there) was the most messy option. PLus she forced him into rehab, if she planned on killing im in that way, rehab wouldve been the dumbest decision ever.

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Nearly everything you wrote is wrong. There were two so-called "ODs". Both of which are suspicious and believers in the murder theory feel they were previous attempts at murder.

Tom Grant has never gotten rich off of this. In fact, he's had financial difficulties for refusing to back down. He lived in a small apartment for years and at one point he had to move back in with his parents. The only person who has financially benefited from Kurt's death is Courtney. She got filthy rich off of him dying.

Courtney did in fact wait up to 2 hours based on her own words. However, she gave two versions. In one version of the story she waited an hour. In another version she waited 2 hours. So which one are we to believe? Why did she not immediately call an ambulance?

Prior to Kurt's death NOBODY thought Kurt was suicidal. That's a fact. All this talk about Kurt always being suicidal comes from Courtney.

Heavier Than Heaven is a POS book written almost solely from Courtney Love's perspective. It contain numerous lies and misrepresentations of the truth in order to benefit Courtney.

The reason why she chose to have him drugged and shot is because the two previous times before he survived when it was just drugs. So she wanted to be sure he would die this final third time.

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Grant is not a known liar. Courtney Love is a known liar. Grand does not have the reputation of doing anything for money and has never gotten rich off of this. Courtney Love does have the reputation of doing anything for money and definitely got rich off of Kurt's death.

Grant has a reputation of being a joke and a terrible private investigator. Grant may have not gotten rich off his theories but he sure as hell makes money from it. Grant claimed that he was moving on from the case and letting someone else handle it but continues to talk about it and and charge money for it. Also you can't have it both ways with Courtney. One minute you claim she is nothing but a liar, the next you are using statements by her to support your theory. I don't know about you but if I think someone is a liar I would take anything they say with a huge grain of salt. But apparently not you. You take statements CL made at face value as long as it fits your theory. If CL says something that doesn't support you ludicrous claims she back to being nothing but a liar.

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Grant does not have the reputation of being a joke and a poor private investigator.

Courtney is a liar. She lies constantly. The difference between you and I is that you believe the lies. You believe every word out of her mouth. When someone claims they waited either 1 hour or 2 hours before they called an ambulance the natural response from a normal, rational human being is to question why did she not call the ambulance immediately after finding him? But you aren't normal. You belong to the crowd that thinks we can excuse every single shady thing Courtney says or admits to.

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The difference between you and I is that you believe the lies... When someone claims that Rome was a botched murder attempt the natural response from a normal, rational human being is to question why Kurt—after waking up in the hospital and being told by doctors that he had a near-fatal mixture of his wife's prescription Rohypnol dissolved in his drink—did not call the police immediately and scream “ARREST THIS WOMAN! SHE TRIED TO KILL ME!!!”


Amen to that. I mean, what kind of an idiot would repeatedly make such an outrageous claim and never offer any sort of logic or reason to back it up? Oh, wait...

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There's no logic or reason in pretending to know what Kurt thought, yet that's exactly what you and the other person did and do all the time.

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Look I can respect other peoples opinions but dude, youre completely jumping to conclusions and ignoring any arguments/not even acknowledging them and keep repeating things from a very very limited untrustworthy source. While there are numerous interviews with various people from his life with NO AGENDA whatsoever (contrary to Grant and people involved in this so called murder plot) claiming the opposite.
Kurt was a musical genious but a very sad depressed individual, observant from many many interviews where he showed that he had huge problems dealing with fame and responsibilities and was overly sensitive. Kept doing heroin which is the ultimate isolation drug and a dissociative and as many have said, sought oblivion. A happy person DOES NOT do heroin. Especially injecting himself and running away from everyone. The stomach pain was just an excuse in the beginning.

He often expressed sadness about his self image and what kind of rolemodel he would be to his daughter, to his fans, as a husband. He started to distance himself from Dave and Krist (whom he always loved like a brother). That is typical for heavy drug users, to seek other drugs user(thats why he started hanging out much more with Patty and other heroin users) because they feel rejected by people who are not in the same sh+t as they are. But he also hated to his guts the mess he found himself in. Put on top all the sh+t his record company wanted of him, his wife, band, friends, drugs, he dug himself too deep for his liking... where he only wanted to paint and record with no strings attached. Everyone said he was most happy when he took 6 or a bit more months off after Nevermind.
There are so so many signs pointing to his suicide even before it that its not even questionable. And like I said Courtney had numerous opportunities to kill him if she wanted. Not franctically try to help him with rehab, interventions, etc... Kurt was a sad soul who hated the future everyone wanted of him and unfortunately had no one to tell him he could carve his own path.

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Grant does not have the reputation of being a joke and a poor private investigator.

Courtney is a liar. She lies constantly. The difference between you and I is that you believe the lies. You believe every word out of her mouth. When someone claims they waited either 1 hour or 2 hours before they called an ambulance the natural response from a normal, rational human being is to question why did she not call the ambulance immediately after finding him? But you aren't normal. You belong to the crowd that thinks we can excuse every single shady thing Courtney says or admits to.


You are an idiot. Since when do I believe Courtney lies? I don't. That is why I take anything she says with a grain of salt. You don't see me trying to prove the suicide theory by using statements made by CL. You on the other love to use CL statements to prove your insane theory. What kind of idiot accuses someone of being a liar but then use statements made by that person to backup their claim? Do you know how dumb you sound?

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You are an idiot. Since when do I believe Courtney lies? I don't. That is why I take anything she says with a grain of salt. You don't see me trying to prove the suicide theory by using statements made by CL. You on the other love to use CL statements to prove your insane theory. What kind of idiot accuses someone of being a liar but then use statements made by that person to backup their claim? Do you know how dumb you sound?


How stupid I am? You are the one who admits that Courtney is a liar but just dismisses all the shady things she says and does. So in your book Courtney can never be guilty of anything, because she lies, right? If there is anything consistent about the you trolls it is your inability to use logic.

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He had just been in rehab for a week, how much heroin could there possibly be built up in his system?

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He had just been in rehab for a week, how much heroin could there possibly be built up in his system?


Since when does March 30th to April 1st constitute a week? Do you even bother doing any research on this before you post or do you just sort of make it up as you go, Sly Vaping Guy-style? Kurt also disappeared into the Seattle drug underground for about a week and did copious amounts of heroin right before his death. So, to answer your question: A LOT.

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Since when does March 30th to April 1st constitute a week? Do you even bother doing any research on this before you post or do you just sort of make it up as you go, Sly Vaping Guy-style? Kurt also disappeared into the Seattle drug underground for about a week and did copious amounts of heroin right before his death. So, to answer your question: A LOT.


Before you start to attack another person for having incorrect information you better fact check yourself. Kurt did not disappear into the drug scene for about a week before he died. That's b.s. that comes directly from Courtney Love. There is no credible sighting of Kurt past April 2, 1994. The medical examiner estimates the day of death was April 5 but concedes that it could have been on April 4 or even April 6. Grant believes he was killed on April 3 or April 4. April 1-April 5 is not one week. And it's definitely not one week if he died on April 3 or April 4.

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There is no credible sighting of Kurt past April 2, 1994


Because you say so? Charles Peterson said he saw Kurt on April 3 and that Kurt looked bad and he thinks that Kurt was out looking to score drugs. Charles knew Kurt was friendly with him, so what reason would Charles have to lie? Kurt was also seen later that day out with a group of "friends" having dinner. The restaurant owner talked about Kurt's strange behavior. When Kurt went to pay for dinner the credit card was declined. So when he went to write the check the people there claimed that he looked out of it and he was writing things in the wrong places.

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Because you say so? Charles Peterson said he saw Kurt on April 3 and that Kurt looked bad and he thinks that Kurt was out looking to score drugs. Charles knew Kurt was friendly with him, so what reason would Charles have to lie? Kurt was also seen later that day out with a group of "friends" having dinner. The restaurant owner talked about Kurt's strange behavior. When Kurt went to pay for dinner the credit card was declined. So when he went to write the check the people there claimed that he looked out of it and he was writing things in the wrong places.


See that's the problem. There are literally dozens of people who claimed they saw Kurt in the time period he was missing. Practically none of them have proof and none of their stories are verified. Many of their stories contradict accepted facts and the timeline. Many have been shown to have been lies and hoaxes over the years. There is no credible sighting of Kurt after April 2.

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See that's the problem. There are literally dozens of people who claimed they saw Kurt in the time period he was missing. Practically none of them have proof and none of their stories are verified. Many of their stories contradict accepted facts and the timeline. Many have been shown to have been lies and hoaxes over the years. There is no credible sighting of Kurt after April 2.


Charles Peterson isn't some random guy off the street with an agenda or one of Kurt's drug buddies. Unlike the other people who claimed to have seen Kurt, Charles was a friend of his. Again he had no reason to lie about seeing Kurt that day or about Kurt's behavior.I guess Charles was supposed to use his photography skills and take a picture of Kurt, and then that would be enough proof for you that he at least saw him right? And what accepted facts and timeline are you talking about? You claim that Kurt wasn't seen after April 2 and nothing can be verified so how can you state something about the timeline as as being fact?

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Charles Peterson isn't some random guy off the street with an agenda or one of Kurt's drug buddies. Unlike the other people who claimed to have seen Kurt, Charles was a friend of his. Again he had no reason to lie about seeing Kurt that day or about Kurt's behavior.I guess Charles was supposed to use his photography skills and take a picture of Kurt, and then that would be enough proof for you that he at least saw him right? And what accepted facts and timeline are you talking about? You claim that Kurt wasn't seen after April 2 and nothing can be verified so how can you state something about the timeline as as being fact?


By verified I mean it's only their word. If Kurt was out trying to score heroin and such then he would have been seen by multiple people. As it stands, nobody can back up Peterson's claims, thus, his claim is unverifiable. I believe at this time period the SPD thinks Kurt was at the Carnation Property (which he wasn't and never went there, the SPD never checked and the scene was staged by Courtney and Eric Erlandson to make it appear that Kurt had been staying there).

To date, all the spurious claims of Kurt being seen alive after April 2 are made by individuals who do not have additional witnesses to back them up when in fact there should be plenty of additional witnesses. That's why none of them are verifiable or credible claims. Unfortunately people do make mistakes and lie. People do lie all the time and for a variety of reasons. And people do convince themselves that their lie actually is truth, to the point of them actually believing they are being honest.

From what I can tell from piecing the information together, Kurt arrived back home at the Seattle house early on the morning of April 2 where he was seen by Cali. Kurt then had a cab called when he left to go out and buy ammo. He might have been looking to score at that time and if so then Peterson got his dates wrong. He then likely returned back home and was never seen again. I do believe he likely died April 3 or 4.

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To date, all the spurious claims of Kurt being seen alive after April 2 are made by individuals who do not have additional witnesses to back them up


False. Here's the restaurant sighting from the same day Peterson saw him as verified by at least two people, including the owner of the restaurant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Payy47wH6XY (50:03-51:37)

And, as moonfirez said, Peterson was a friend of Kurt's and has nothing to gain by just making the story up for no reason. Or does his story need to be backed up by at least 100 other witnesses all of whom took a lie detector test administered by the "expert" who did El Duce's polygraph before you deem it to be credible? Christ, this is getting tedious.

Grant does not have the reputation of being a joke and a poor private investigator.


Bonus: Skip ahead to 1:02:09 in the video linked above to see Tom Grant admit that he's a joke and a poor private investigator.

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Oh jeez..so Eric is involved in this murder plot too? So that's Dylan, Cali, Eric, the medical examiner, random police folks from the SPD? Who else?

"And people do convince themselves that their lie actually is truth, to the point of them actually believing they are being honest". El Duce anyone?

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Ignore him. The report that was written at the same time states that tolerance is an important factor. Sly fapping guy always ignores that for some reason.

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That is ridiculous.

Nothing in his post says "Courtney Love apologists"... So him quoting and citing research that may contradict a point in this documentary is a Courtney Love apologist?

I am certainly not a troll, I have never met Courtney Love, but I definitely felt as though some parts of this documentary were manipulative at best.

And just from reading that wiki link, Cyril Wecht seems to have a lot of credibility issues that you are ignoring.

Courtney Love's behavior in the documentary was certainly weird, but even the P.I. guy says she was constantly high as a kite. People behave weird when they are high.

I hope this case is re-opened simply because documentaries are a horrible way to educate yourself about anything. I know, I studied documentary making as a part of my film education in college and I have worked on feature length documentaries myself.

Documentaries are often manipulative opinion pieces masquerading as journalism. They should be treated as such.

"Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again." -- C.S.Lewis

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I was beginning to think there were no normal people like you on this board. This two hour fictional piece is loaded with non facts and assumptions. I didn't see a shred of evidence. This guy has no credibility

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Absolutely. The fact that he doesn't believe in evolution makes me question his ability to think critically.

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