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Tut and his family were DNA tested and were Sub saharan African


Tut and his family tested Sub-saharan African on DNA testing in 2010

On the only two official DNA studies on royal mummies, the Subsaharan STR's were way higher than that--in fact the pharohs studied were almost all Subsaharan DNA--primarily from the Great Lakes peoples of Africa.

Only the Amarna mummies(including Tut and Akenhaten) and Ramses III were tested and when the results came back almost 100% Subsaharan, the testing of other mummies was suspended by Dr. Hawass, then chief of Antiquities for Egypt.

Here are the citations published in the Journal of the American Medical Association(JAMA) and the British Medical Journal(BMJ)--some of the top medical journals in the world:

Ancestry and Pathology in King Tutankhamun's Family
by Zahi Hawass, PhD; Yehia Z. Gad, MD; Somaia Ismail, PhD; Rabab Khairat, MSc; Dina Fathalla, MSc; Naglaa Hasan, MSc; Amal Ahmed, BPharm; Hisham Elleithy, MA; Markus Ball, MSc; Fawzi Gaballah, PhD; Sally Wasef, MSc; Mohamed Fateen, MD; Hany Amer, PhD; Paul Gostner, MD; Ashraf Selim, MD; Albert Zink, PhD; Carsten M. Pusch, PhD

JAMA. 2010;303(7):638-647. doi:10.1001/jama.2010.121.

Here is the British Medical journal citation that includes the Y DNA haplotype testing of Ramses III:

Hawass at al. 2012, Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study.

BMJ2012;345doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1136/bmj.e8268 Published 17 December 2012

Ramses III's Y DNA haplotype was stated in the study and it was E1b1a--a subclade found only in Subsaharan Africans.

Autosomal STR data was also published in the text of the article and analysis of the STR's was also consistent with Subsaharan Africans.

So the scientific evidence shows that the royals tested from two different dynasties were SUBSAHARAN BLACKS.

This is recent scientific evidence--not so called Afrocentrism.


The ancient Pharohs were Black or brown Africans and whites or Mediterraneans did not rule Egypt until the time of Alexander the Great.

The Ancient Greeks said this in their reports(see Herodotus), the art shows this and now the DNA is confirming this fact.






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I am certainly no expert in this field, and I don't really care one way or the other, except in that I do love science, and enjoy a good controversy!

Having taken a look at the paper you cite (http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=185393#RESULTS) I haven't found any support for the claim that Tutankhamun was sub-Saharan African (though maybe it's just buried below a mountain of jargon and I'm missing it); most of the paper concerns the pathology of Tutankhamun and his relationship to those he was most closely associated with. They state their objectives as:

To introduce a new approach to molecular and medical Egyptology, to determine familial relationships among 11 royal mummies of the New Kingdom, and to search for pathological features attributable to possible murder, consanguinity, inherited disorders, and infectious diseases.

This does not sound like a paper that has even attempted to answer this kind of question. And in fact, the first author on that paper (Dr. Hawass) has stated publically that
Tutankhamun was not black, and the portrayal of ancient Egyptian civilisation as black has no element of truth to it.
http://www.iol.co.za/scitech/technology/tutankhamun-was-not-black-antiquities-chief-1.372147#.VL0Dt9gcTzA
(Of course, not being an expert, I have no quick way of vetting that statement, or even Dr. Hawass standing or personal biases.)

The article you cite on Ramses III states that its objectives are to
To investigate the true character of the harem conspiracy described in the Judicial Papyrus of Turin and determine whether Ramesses III was indeed killed.
Unfortunately I don't have access to the full article, but from that description and a general knowledge of how specialized scientific studies are nowadays, it seems unlikely that the study would have much to say (or with any degree of certainty) about his genetic background. If it does, it's not mentioned in any of the summary material (http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e8268.full.pdf+html).

EDIT: Actually, scratch that; I did find further reference to this here: http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/er/cyberscribe/CyberScribe%20209%20February%202013.pdf. It's interesting. From looking at this http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1a_Y-DNA.htm Egypt is not exactly the first place you'd expect to find this haplogroup.

None of this proves that your claim is false, of course, it just means that I failed to find any evidence that it is true in the sources you provided. Since I'm no anthropologist or geneticist, and this is a very technical paper, I may very well be missing something, but if so, please show me what I've overlooked by quoting the relevant passages in the paper.

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Um, with all due respect, a.you simply did not understand the "jargon" and b.how papers with multiple authors are written or c. the politics of Egyptian archeology at the time and d.the long history of distorting the history of Ancient Egypt.

I will discuss each point:

a. The "jargon":

If you read the actual paper in JAMA, you would see in the results section that they printed a long paragraph about methodology and it states they used the STR method in their DNA testing.

They published a table with the actual STR's of the mummies tested. It is a large table with all the names of the tested pharohs, queens,etc.

If you have 8 STR's you can run the results in various computer models and get an analysis of what populations share these STR's.

The STR's of the Amarna pharohs and of Ramses III had the most STR's in common with the Great Lakes peoples of Africa(Central Africa) on multiple computer models by various other scientists including the most famous one published by DNAtribes--a company that specializes in STR and DNA analysis.

In the British Medical journal article on Ramses III, they also published his Y chromosome information in addition to his STR's. His STR data was similar to the Amarna pharohs and his Y chromosome also was a subclade that is Subsaharan African.

b. and c. Why were these conclusions not also published? how did archeology infighting affect the info?

The research in both papers was done primarily by Dr. Zink--world wide authority on ancient DNA. However, to get access to the royal mummies, Zink had to include Dr. Hawass--then head of Antiquities in Egypt on the paper and Hawass got to decide the emphasis of the paper when published.

Hawass has a long history of denying any African origin of the Ancient Egyptians and his is a minority opinion among modern archeologists and he is controversial even among his fellow Egyptian archeologists on this point. Hawass was particularly criticised when he was promoting the National Geographic "CT reconstruction" of TUT--the reconstruction was denounced by many of his own department underlings as trying to make Tut appear non African and later Hawass himself repudiated the reconstruction in print as not looking like Tut.

Hawass was (and probably still is as he is making a comeback after corruption charges) very focused on getting tourism dollars and TV shows from the US and Europe and it has been alleged that Hawass is of the opinion that Black pharohs are bad for business among white tourists and TV interests.

Please note that after Ramses III was tested, Hawass revoked the right to DNA test any of the other royal mummies.

Hawass was successful in burying the DNA info and publishing different conclusions in the papers and when the STR analysis was studied in academic circles, many began to attack Zink,etc(see d. as to why). These critics succeeded in trying to make people question the STR data. They were able to "muddy the waters"ie--tried to obsfucate a scientific conclusion.

However, in the case of Ramses III, Zink succeeded in getting the Y chromosome data included in the results as well. The Y chromosome, which is passed unaltered from father to son was particularly damaging because it confirmed the STR data and the Y chromosome has further implications in DNA analysis. The Y chromosome is a record of the male lineage as it is unchanged from father to son and this means that Ramses III's male ancestors were also Subsaharan. Ie, if confirms not just Ramses but a whole line of royal males in his dynasty was Subsaharan.

Faced with this becoming publicized,all further DNA testing on the royal mummies was stopped.

d.there has been a long history of trying to distort and co-opt Ancient Egypt as a white European culture. This is because the Ancient Egyptians were so great and they predated the Greeks and Romans. The rediscovery of Ancient Egypt occurred during the time of Napoleon and this was also a time when African people were being enslaved and colonized all over the world. To admit that one of the greatest of the ancient cultures had Black and Brown people as rulers at a time period when Europe was uncivilized would have debunked white supremacy. Therefore any indication that the Ancient Egyptians were dark skinned Africans was suppressed in art, books, academia, and later TV and films. National Geographic has been one of the most persistent of the promoters of this false image-- even famously posting photos of snow white pharohs,etc. Look at the Ten Commandments by De Mille. The King Tut song by Steve Martin( "he's my favorite honky...").

This pictorial promotion of a historical falsehood--a white ruled Egypt before Alexander the great-- has been taught for years and years in the US and Europe and is still prevalent today.

If the DNA results were widely publicized to the general public, it would be the end of the whites ruled Egypt falsehood.

















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Um, with all due respect, a.you simply did not understand the "jargon" and b.how papers with multiple authors are written or c. the politics of Egyptian archeology at the time and d.the long history of distorting the history of Ancient Egypt.

A, C and D are probably true. I would say I have some idea of B. C and D are not resolvable on a forum since you may be equally biased to the other end of the spectrum (I couldn't tell), but I prefer to focus on the science anyway. The technical language should be explainable at least.
If you read the actual paper in JAMA, you would see in the results section that they printed a long paragraph about methodology and it states they used the STR method in their DNA testing.

They published a table with the actual STR's of the mummies tested. It is a large table with all the names of the tested pharohs, queens,etc.

If you have 8 STR's you can run the results in various computer models and get an analysis of what populations share these STR's.

Well, like I said, I'm not a geneticist, and when you reference a paper to make a point to laymen on a movie site, you can expect them not to be able to do the modelling and re-interpret the results. That makes it impossible for me to verify your source unless I first learn about the methodology. So we can come back to that discussion in five years or so, but for now, I'll have to take your word on it.

With a topic like this, though, it's never particularly wise to just take anything on faith from anyone, so when I see a paper that (at least superficially) is about something vastly different than what you say it is, and the conclusions that you draw from it are that contentious, can you really fault me for not immediately accepting it? In my experience (I've done a lot of reading on various topics in pseudoscience, fringe science, or science that is contentious in the public mind like alternative medicine, research into the paranormal, climate change and evolutionary biology), most of the time people just copy/paste some stuff from a blog that draws the conclusions they want to reach and they don't read the original work or misinterpret it entirely. So if you don't see pretty remarkable conclusions like that mentioned explicitly, in my experience it usually means that something fishy is going on.

Are you a researcher, btw? And if so, in which field?

Also, I did in the end find the reference to Ramses' haplotype, as I pointed out. For the Tut paper, however, you really needed to be an expert to decipher that information. It would have been nice if there had been a verifiable statement from the authors that put it in less obscure technical terms.
Hawass was successful in burying the DNA info and publishing different conclusions in the papers and when the STR analysis was studied in academic circles, many began to attack Zink,etc(see d. as to why). These critics succeeded in trying to make people question the STR data. They were able to "muddy the waters"ie--tried to obsfucate a scientific conclusion.

Perhaps this is true, and if so it is interesting, but again I have no way to tell unless I do a deep dive into the subject. It would explain the difference between the results of the genetic analysis and his public statements. But why would Hawass want his name on a paper (as first author no less) that does not support his conclusions - wouldn't that lend it more credibility?

It leaves many other questions open as well. Is there perhaps any legitimate criticism of the methodology (there usually is)? Has this study been replicated independently? Does Dr. Zink perhaps have his own biases (well, everyone always does, but do they happen to align with the conclusions)? Have any other mummies been tested (preferably by others) and if so, are they of the same haplotype, or do they point in a different direction? Are there temporal differences between them that may signal migrations? And so on.

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You are grossly distorting and misreporting the results of these DNA studies -- which are not the first, nor the only ones.

They actually prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Ancient Egyptians are NOT of the Negroid race. They are, of course, Africans since Egypt is in Africa.

Where they "white" in the sense of being European? No. They were a mix of races, or perhaps a racial type that has died out due to mixing of the races in this part of the world, where black, white, arab and other types all have inter-married for thousands of years.

Among other facts (besides DNA, which is pretty conclusive): mummies of Pharoahs AND OTHER EGYPTIANS had their HAIR tested -- the follicles -- and they showed they were not Negroid hair follicles, but straight or wavy more like European or Arabic hair. Of course, Egyptians shaved their heads and wore wigs. But you can still tell from the follicles what the hair would be like, including the color -- and they had a variety of hair colors from red to brown. This is not "fading" but can be determined by DNA evidence as to what color it was originally (even if it is GRAY on an older person).

I was fascinated when it was posited that Ancient Egyptians were "black Africans" (Negroid) back in the 70s-80s -- I think this idea got popular around the time of the King Tut Exhibit, which traveled the US around 1978 and I was lucky enough to see this in Los Angeles that year!

I have NO problems whatsoever with accepting Ancient Egyptians as Negroid black -- none. It was a fascinating theory. However, it has not proved out at all.

The other problem with the theory: Ancient Egyptian artists often portrayed other races, especially blacks from South in Nubia or the Sudan.....and in their COLOR PAINTINGS and wall murals, you can see many pictures depicting Negroid individuals, with clearly delineated black skin, curly hair and Negroid facial features. You would not do this if you were the same exact race. If so, you would depict such people as looking just like you looked.

In addition, such color paintings show people with pale skin (women, who were indoors or under parasols) alongside men, who are shown with darker, tanned skin (as they were outdoors hunting or fishing). Only fairly light skinned people "tan".

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[deleted]

Anyone who compares us merry men with the monkeys that live below us are insensitive to our heritage.
Your comments were at least respectable until you said that.

Contemporary estimates are that the Berbers seem to have arrived in Egypt about 3,500-3,800 years ago. The pyramids were built about 4,400-6,000 years ago. The monkeys must have built them. If transplanted Europeans built the pyramids in Africa, how come they did not build any in Europe?

By the way you did not descend from Neanderthal Norse aliens from outer space. You descend from monkeys just like all Homo Sapiens do. The DNA of all human beings is 99.9% similar. Mitochondrial DNA is also compelling. It too indicates that the mother of all human beings was an African female. Homo Sapiens originated in Africa around 200,000 years ago after the ice began to melt (i.e. nearest the equator) from the last Ice Age. Tectonic plate alignment 100,000 years ago would for a time allow inter-continental migration without boats (wherever the climate was warm enough).

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[deleted]

Lack of culture? Sir How dare you make such an ignorant comparison when it was European intrusion into Africa that destroyed African culture! You should have quit while you were ahead. Each post makes you sound more ignorant. You post without any regard to the barbarous history or European expansion.

The pinnacle of African civilization and culture reached its peak (as evidenced by the pyramids) a few thousand years before the Europeans ever crawled out of their caves! Africa has been exploited by European intrusion at least as far back as Alexander the Great (and earlier by your Berber cavemen). Know you nothing of world history, conquest and the spoils of war? Aggressive conquest (i.e. wars) ALWAYS destroys the culture, autonomy and the self-reliance of the conquered. Do you have any idea how much African culture was destroyed by the Roman Empire alone ("Carthage must be destroyed." Cato the Elder 234–149 BC)? Your European ancestors have raped an entire continent (including its people) and changed the face of it to boost its own prosperity. Tell me, who owns the gold, diamonds, oil, copper, uranium and other recourses of Africa today? How on earth can you call anyone a monkey or backward? Why? Because they were not insistent on wiping Europeans from the face of the earth 2,300 years ago? Would killing all your ancestors then merit your respect for them? Your European ancestors are the biggest thieves in history! They have killed and pillaged their way to control of almost an entire planet. Behold the fruits of European expansion:

https://cherokeegothic.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/world-commodities-map-africa_536becb7083f7_w540.jpg
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/business/global-economy/140502/world-commodities-exports-map
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2049.html

How much of Africa TODAY is actually owned by the Africans themselves? Tell me, how does killing, pillaging, destroying, stealing and raping define civilized behavior?

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[deleted]

Labeling Egyptians black or white is just like labeling Americans or any other multiracial culture black or white. Statements like that have no scientific or archaeological value.

As for king Tut, I came across several studies and none of them can come to a clear conclusion. The DNA samples extracted are contaminated, degraded and the authentic strains of DNA are too fragmentary and thus insufficient. With the current state of research and technologies, we simply can't come to a conclusion regarding Tuts racial background.

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The above is total BS. DNA testing of ancient Egyptians shows the exact opposite and shows that Ancient Egyptians were Turkish, Libyan, Syrian, Isreal, and near east ancestry. ONLY modern day Egyptians show the Subsahara Genetic makeup due to the influx of Africans in more modern times down the Nile and through the slave trade. Don't take my word, just Google it. 2017 DNA studies of Ancient Egyptians.

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I thought EVEYONE, even the Incans and the Vikings, traced their roots to Sub-Saharan Africa (or East Africa)

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No they weren't you Afrocentric moron. The latest DNA study totally debunked this.

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