Since 2011 I've seen most important Bollywood releases, at least some 20 movies a year, and I disagree. .......
From Lootera to Shuddh Desi Romance, these are really good films. From Krrish 3 to Chashme Baddoor, decent. From Inkaar to Bullett Raja, not very good things can be said about but they still don't qualify as really crappy.
Merely bad acting & bad direction do not qualify as crappy. In addition to that, I rate most as crappy on the basis of how convincing a movie is. "Demolition man","Equilibrium" "Star trek" for instance would be termed utter rubbish and unconvincing if it had not been set in futuristic earth. "The One(2001)" was set in a probability of the existence of parallel universes "Lord of the rings" another example[not sure if alternate reality]. Just some of the millions of examples that can be quoted.
The names of films I mention in brackets are fantastical in nature. However they achieve the blend between reality and fantasy - with CGI or their storytelling technique which compels the audience to believe that this actually happened sometime, somewhere. Thats the capability to manipulate probabilities.
Now Dhoom3 [I'm not venturing into the realm of it being a copy of various films], boy sees his father commit suicide and decides to take revenge. Why does a thief have to have a justifiable, and most importantly - a noble reason to steal or commit a crime[in Bollywood]? Point out movies in Hollywood where a man has had a bitter past and resorts to thievery out of psychological trauma? Now that's crap to me. For this reason, Dhoom 1 was better.
I don't believe even for a nano second that anyone can sing or recite poetry while falling off Burj Khalifa of the Bhakra Nagal dam[Dhoom 3 anyone?].
While I have not seen many of the Hindi movies, Raanjhanaa was good but unrealistic. How many people IN THE WORLD would wait a decade or so for love to be REQUITED? 1/10000000 maybe? Now, is that to be considered realistic?
Aashiqui 2 was done convincingly and was pretty good. True romantic film, true to its genre.
Krrish 3 - Again copied from various movies so would not comment or compare. But the CGI? Was it done at a kid's backyard? A huge chunk of the last scene was a failed attempt at emulating from X-Men. Watch the scene from X-Men where Magneto escapes from prison and starts controlling metal to make his way out. Compare that with Vivek Oberoi adorned in metal. Looks like he too escaped- but only from the loony bin!
Chennai Express - OLD school, boy meets girl, falls in love. Fights girls father , fights henchmen.... How different is it from DDLJ[and the others]? A good example of cliché. Now compare similarities between: Only Lovers Left Alive (2013); The One I Love (2014); Titanic (1997); The English Patient (1996). All are romantic flicks BTW.
Singham, Wanted, Dabang, Rowdy Rathore, Kick, Boss.... One punch, and man goes flying. Is this based on the concept of zero gravity and streamlining?? All villains are stupid and have to act in accordance. In Bourne series, Matt knows he cannot take on the entire dept alone, so he uses a sniper rifle. Thats blending fiction with reality.
Ones I have seen and liked:
Madras Cafe - good. liked it. Based on actual events, and without unnecessary melodrama. But wouldn't compare to likes of Munich (2005)
Race 1 - very good would compare it with Goodbye Lover (1998).
Race 2 - became predictable towards the end. Looked like the scriptwriter was in a hurry to finish the project. Nothing out of the ordinary in the climax.
Shahid - Again, a biography, good
The Lunchbox - Very good. Produced on an avg budget. No extravagant melodrama.
Special 26 - Based on a true incident
Bhaahg Milkha Bhaag - Based on a true story
Kahani - An original concept. Good.
Bullett Raja - Good. But exercises unnecessary melodrama at instances.
Question is, where have all the original varieties in idea and concept gone in fiction in Bollywood? Was there ever?
...but here in France people notice that
Hollywood is not without flaws. But those flaws are beyond the scope of Bollywood[& this thread].
I don't know if you are french[& honestly I don't care], but as far as the french are concerned, they take movie-making to a whole new level. For them, nothing is taboo and nothing is to be left unexplored. Their only discrepancy is the money & financing boost that Hollywood has or else they would have surpassed Hollywood a long time ago.
Last french production I watched, Blue is the warmest color, is so artistically done. Its concept amazing though Hollywood and others dubbed it pornographic. Again there is the instance of "Womb (2010)"[not french]. BOLLYWOOD IS 100 YEARS BEHIND ON SUCH CONCEPTS and totally incapable of such complex story lines. But that as I said, is beyond the scope of this thread.
And why the f should Bollywood caters to a more global audience? Bollywood is mostly for hindi speaking people and the films are generally set in India, feature indian characters... It's only logical it caters to an Indian audience
Then that, is a different story altogether. It reveals so much more than just movie-making... In interviews with these artists, if they are asked their favorite author, or film, most of them will look towards the west- Hollywood or otherwise.
Question is, who is to blame? They, who make these, or we, people who eschew the fact that film-making has evolved in the rest of the world, people who want an idealist film in a less-than-ideal world? Stuck in a time loop, reliving movies of the 60s and 70s...
Concerning you last paragraph about Shakespearian love and good villains and comparing comedies... I don't agree but I'm too lazy to write a long explanation... I will just tell you that it's well known that love stories are very often forced into Hollywood films that aren't even romances (Centurion, Ironclad comes to mind, but as I said it's VERY common). And it's always this higher love story you talk about.
Love stories in non-romantic films are forced for the average laymen who enjoys some sex in his films however irrelevant to the plot. BTW, those that you term love stories, are actually casual flings between leads and does nothing to alter the story line. At times, those are done away with. Of what I can remember, Bourne's[Matt Damon] partner dies, in sequels, he not hooked up with anybody unnecessarily because that does not add to the story. Similarly in Madras cafe, there is no coy romance, but that is not true fiction. Of the 100 possible, name any 10 Bollywood movies where romance or similar stereotypes has not been unnecessarily added as an integral part of the plot. Point is, in Hollywood there is
unlimited variety, Bollywood? Nada!
Indian films have their specificities and common themes: patriotism, respecting elders and your family, family drama, mothers resisting through hardships, etc. This is typically found in Indian cinema.
You mean the cliché? Read the last line of my prev post and the last line of the one before. Amazing! lol.
The things you said about love and the villains... it also applies to Hollywood
Agreed. But that's just the marrow in the bones that comprise the skeletal system which is covered by muscular tissue, which, by nervous system and finally the skin to make a body[here, a film]. Its like saying a zoo has animals in it. Let me reiterate, I am talking about the concepts, the story line. I am talking about diversity in Hollywood and the lack of, in Bollywood. How many authentic romantic films do you have in Bollywood mainstream? Most romantic flicks nowadays [and previously] are rom-coms, which is a separate sub-genre, but Bollywood incorporates them to almost every film. In fact now, rom-coms seem to have become the only available specificity.
As to evolving films... if there is no special effects involved then Bollywood is at the level of Hollywood nowadays. And yes, stories have evolved. But if you want to compare the basic plots, then it doesn't matter if it's Holly, Bolly...
Good that this is the last part as I am getting bored now.
I am talking about the concepts, honey, the story line. I am talking about diversity in Hollywood and the lack of, in Bollywood. if you still don't understand, you'll have to figure it out yourself. Watch some Hollywood movies for a change maybe.
I haven't delved an inch into the differences in technicalities yet which comes next; The lighting, the effects, camera angles. how many of these farmhands know that there are different angles for shooting different moods in a film? How many actually experiment with it?
Not sure what your nationality is,...
Is that relevant? How?
If I were you, I would proof-read before posting. At times it causes reading blindness.
NOTE: Since my posts and reviews have met with nonchalant criticism in the past, I would appreciate, whoever replies, does so by backing statements with proof and statistics, names of movies, tv-shows etc and their comparison to contemporary Hollywood films. Failing which I will regard such posts as mere retaliatory response from a fan who has no evidence or comparison, yet is unwilling to accept facts, and refrain from replying.
Regards,
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Aryia
10 years ago
honey
Watch some Hollywood movies for a change maybe.
I don't appreciate being called "honey" and I've always watched a lot Hollywood, thank you very much.
Also I mentioned nationality because if you're north american that would explain why you think Hollywood caters for international audiences. As a European I don't think it's true. I think this was very simple to understand in my post and you don't have to be condescending.
As to your approach to films, well you just should realize films are NOT real life. Raanjhanaa for example is unrealistically romantic but the storyline, the characters are interesting etc. What movies are really realistic? Even The Lunchbox is a bit unrealistic. Even simple movies are CINEMA.
Dhoom 3 wasn't a very good film. Sort of entertaining though. Why are you nitpicking as to the realism and interest of the thief's motivations?? It's Dhoom 3 for Christ's sake, it's pop corn entertainment not Oscar material...
About men flying in the air in masala films... Yes it's unrealistic. It's made to be that way. In western films, characters repeatedly punch each other and have like 1 drop of blood on their faces... it's completely unrealistic, everybody knows that, but we're used to it and it doesn't seem as unrealistic as the fights in masala films. The way I see it, Indian films just embrace more the cinematographic aspect. The fights, when they are like these typical masala fights, are approached like fun choreographies.
It doesn't take anything away from the story. It doesn't matter if the guy fights 50 villains alone. It's the suspension of disbelief. It is said that in this film universe, it is possible for the hero to do that. Just like when you start to watch Spiderman it is accepted the guy have spider abilities because a spider bit him. You're going to say "yes but Spiderman is sci-fi". But the label doesn't matter. A film will have its own universe and it doesn't need to be sci-fi or fantasy for that.
So yes men fly around, but the unrealism of the fights belongs to the film universe and it doesn't diminish the story. Take Singham. It's about a very honest village cop who has a new position in a large town and is confronted to the corruption of his colleagues, judges etc. He wants to remain honest but gets more and more angry. The storyline and character are interesting and there is realism in the character's psychology.
It's not that films are crappy or have this and that flaw, it's just your personal approach that makes you see things like that.
I also don't understand why you keep on watching hindi films if you think most of them are crap...
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ke_neth1981
10 years ago
About men flying in the air in masala films...... The storyline and character are interesting and there is realism in the character's psychology.
Again, a retaliatory response.
GIVE ME DIRECT, NOT VAGUE COMPARISONS.
Example:
SRK - supposedly a great actor[maybe not you or me, but supposedly], his acting in My name is khan. Or Barfi!2012, based on autism. Great performances by Ranbir K. P.Chopr and Illeana.
Now those 2[or any other Bwood film] with Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man (1988). Also based on autism. very little effects and loads of quality acting. Watch it if you haven't. Disregarding that the 3 have very different ways of depicting autism, just in terms of the acting.
Now give me comparisons in that light!
I also don't understand why you keep on watching hindi films if you think most of them are crap...
I understand both industries approach to make movies differently. True, and its good as long as we keep them separate. But that's being defensive, isn't it? However, If one ever draws a table of direct comparisons, its a sad story to tell.
~Time to wake up and smell the coffee~
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Aryia
10 years ago
GIVE ME DIRECT, NOT VAGUE COMPARISONS.
??
Why are you quoting me about masala fights scenes and asking for details?
I gave the example of Singham to explain how the non realism of fight scenes didn't take anything from the story or character's psychology.
I don't need to compare this with Hollywood, but I did by mentioning the approach to fights in western films and how they differ.
I'm not going to reexplain everything.
I think India has many great actors and actresses, that don't suffer
at all from comparisons with western actor, I think there are many good films in Bollywood (I already gave examples for 2013), not as varied as Hollywood (almost no fantasy/sci-fi...) but still varied (again, my list of examples), and after years of american and european films, Indian films for me feel like fresh air (even after 4 years of watching them). Maybe I have an Indian sensibility, I don't know, but I think it's clear we disagree. The original discussion was how their films are crappy according to you and I answered you with examples of good films of last year. Not that I'm the only one saying they're good by the way (critics...). If we don't agree on that (if you think most of these movies are crap) then I think there's no point in "arguing" further. If you don't appreciate these films I can't make you like them. If you think they suffer from the comparison with Hollywood I can't make you change your mind. About your comparison MNIK-Barfi-Rain Man. I've seen the 3. I really don't think the acting in the Bollywood films (or the films in themselves) suffer in comparison with the Hollywood film (if that is what you implied)!!
Let's just agree to disagree.
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ke_neth1981
10 years ago
Before I say adieus,
??
Why are you quoting me about masala fights scenes and asking for details?
1. Because I am challenging the credibility of these scenes. In Hollywood, such scenes are relevant to only one genre - those are called SPOOFS. In spoofs, wilder action and comic scenes are shot which again Bollywood cannot recreate. Another genre is, animation[Ice-Age, Shrek etc]. However, these have been incorporated in almost every masala movie nowadays. Producers in Bwood, mix almost every aspect of comedy into one movie. That has now become the norm and stereotype.
2. I am asking for comparisons between not just one, but in more that one genre[if there exists one in Bwood]. I had given numerous differences in many and asked you to do the same. Check! check!!:-
Merely bad acting & bad direction do not qualify as crappy. In addition to that, I rate most as crappy on the basis of how convincing a movie is. "Demolition man","Equilibrium" "Star trek" for instance would be ......millions of examples that can be quoted.......
Ones I have seen and liked:
Madras Cafe - good. liked it. Based on actual events, and without unnecessary melodrama. But wouldn't compare to likes of Munich (2005)
Bullett Raja - Good. But exercises unnecessary melodrama at instances...gone in fiction in Bollywood? Was there ever?.....
You have quoted only a handful of movies and explained how they are considered good films in Bwood. However the original question was 'Hollywood is better than Bwood... and most films in Bwood is crap'.
So I was expecting direct comparisons explaining 'X Bwood movie is good, and as good as Y movie in Hwood which has a similar storyline. So Bwood is is as good as Hwood'. Now that I have spoonfed you, I hope I am clear in this context.
I gave the example of Singham to explain how the non realism of fight scenes didn't take anything from the story or character's psychology.
Well, hate to burst your bubble, but it does - completely and wholly. Singham is a serious film. At least its core concept is serious; dealing with corrupt systems. maybe like Rajneeti. However, when you include surrealism[or rather unrealistic elements] in the movie, it takes the credibility from the show- It loses the appeal. You will be tempted to say - it did not lose its appeal to me, but then, I am trying to evaluate the film from a rational point of view. Not someone who will pay for a movie ticket merely to see his/ her star on screen and cheer[which is what happens more often than not in India]. So far, I am yet to find
substantial flaws in Hwood films even after scrutinizing excruciatingly on each detail.
I don't need to compare this with Hollywood, but I did by mentioning the approach to fights in western films and how they differ.
When? You mentioned:
About men flying in the air in masala films... Yes it's unrealistic. It's made to be that way. In western films, characters repeatedly punch each other and have like 1 drop of blood on their faces... it's completely unrealistic, everybody knows that, but we're used to it and it doesn't seem as unrealistic as the fights in masala films. The way I see it, Indian films just embrace more the cinematographic aspect. The fights, when they are like these typical masala fights, are approached like fun choreographies.
I did not comment on this previously because:
1. Only someone who hasn't watched Hwood movies would say this. Obviously its futile for me to tell you that its a fact, Hwood is recognized worldwide for its pre-production and continuity in scene shoots. Bwood invests 0INR in pre-production & pays little attention to scene continuity, hence the infinite technical goofs.
2. Lol, and you did not even mention a name. In fact you have failed to mention even 1 Hwood movie let alone compare. You just gone about reiterating on the one's I've mentioned. So you've been feeding on a staple diet of Hwood films? Sure you have...
3. Hollywood is different, mostly because the audiences are more matured. They will not buy this. They do not like to be spoonfed. Which is why, if you have noticed, in Hwood films, many a time an incident happens, and it is not explained explicitly. It is rather made manifest eventually to the audience. If you miss it, you are left clueless. Thats symbolic of people who do not like to be patronized. Here, everything is spoonfed.
I'm not going to reexplain everything.
After explaining everything line-by-line, I would think its me who has to explain everything line by line[which of course I won't ;)]
I think India has many great actors and actresses, that don't suffer at all from comparisons with western actor, I think there are many good films in Bollywood (I already gave examples for 2013), not as varied as Hollywood (almost no fantasy/sci-fi...) but still varied (again, my list of examples), and after years of american and european films, Indian films for me feel like fresh air (even after 4 years of watching them).
Thats what someone would say sitting comfortably before the hearth in the corner of a room. My plea to you know that this world is a big place.
Maybe I have an Indian sensibility, I don't know, but I think it's clear we disagree. The original discussion was how their films are crappy according to you and I answered you with examples of good films of last year. Not that I'm the only one saying they're good by the way (critics...). If we don't agree on that (if you think most of these movies are crap) then I think there's no point in "arguing" further. If you don't appreciate these films I can't make you like them. If you think they suffer from the comparison with Hollywood I can't make you change your mind.
Do you know, critics are also paid to write reviews independently[or, erm.....otherwise]?
About your comparison MNIK-Barfi-Rain Man. I've seen the 3. I really don't think the acting in the Bollywood films (or the films in themselves) suffer in comparison with the Hollywood film (if that is what you implied)!
Sure, but that's only something you[now that you have said it] would say, or people who watch 1 Hollywood film[only for adult scenes ;)] of every 100 Bwood that they watch[again, if at all]
And please, names!! Avoid picking random films from IMDB please.
Also remember, as far as I am concerned, my argument, my criticism, is not just for you. Whether you believe or not, is not my point, but for everyone.
Oh Yes! food for thought. Sorry, I think 1 link is not working:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/entertainment/bollywood/we-are-nowhere-close-to-hollywood-neil-nitin-mukesh/article1-789528.aspxhttp://www.rediff.com/movies/slide-show/slide-show-1-r-madhavan-we-are-far-behind-from-hollywood-in-acting/20131004.htmAdieus, till the next [crap]release!!!
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Aryia
10 years ago
Seriously you need to stop writing that I don't know American films!! I've seen way more Hollywood films than hindi films. I'VE ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT. Do you want a freaking list? I've seen "only" some 180 hindi films (I think, I have the list here), and obviously many more US films!!
I didn't make assumptions on you so stop making them about me (especially since you're wrong).
You like comparing, good for you. I'm not interested in comparing films with same plots...
I can say that when it comes to sci fi Hollywood is much better. Marvel, DC Comics... I've seen most of them and even if I think Ra.One and Krrish 3 were decent and enjoyable, US sci fi/superhero films are better.
But romances, romcoms, dramas are as good in Bollywood. I already gave the examples. Shuddh Desi Romance was a really nice romcom just as good as western romcoms. It was actually more original than most romcoms we regularly see. I can't think of an American film with a similar plot, I can't see the damn point. A romcom should be "judged" as a romcom, that's all. My favourite western romcoms are actually much more com than rom: The Girl Next Door, Shallow Hal... But my favourite has to be Love Actually. I've seen plenty of others like The Holiday, What's your number, Don Jon (sort of a romcom), Keeping the Faith, Hitch... And Shuddh Desi Romance is good. But the thing is that there is NO NEED to compare with this and that to know it's a good movie.
Another good romcom was Jaane Tu Ya Jaane Na. Also Rangeela. Ah and of course DDLJ!
A very good comedy/drama was Zindagi Na Milegi Dobara. Again, this is a good film and I don't need to make comparisons with US dramatic comedies I've seen to know that...
I hope I made my point of view clear this time.
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