MovieChat Forums > Boy Meets Girl (2015) Discussion > Voice in the trailer is convincing

Voice in the trailer is convincing


By that, I mean to say the voice the actress had was a fairly accurate portrayal of those voices many trannies have, which sounds more like a typical gay male, as opposed to sounding vaguely female. I have oft wondered why more M>F trannies don't attempt to sound more feminine; as if it were some sort of sublimated assertion of their manhood. What is not in keeping with normal "real life", though, is that this actress clearly looks female, whilst most trannies look almost as unconvincing as they sound.

Either this actress is managing a remarkable "male" voice, or it was altered in post (it's easy enough to modify it with electronic processing). Or, who knows, maybe this actress is actually a male. Of course, if he is, he would be remarkably passable as a female, in terms of face and physique, if not voice.



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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

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The trailer voice is Michelle Hendley, a REAL M to F transgender actress.

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We thought that Michelle Handley did a terrific job of managing her voice. In most scenes, especially her blog post, her voice is fully female in sound, but in a couple of scenes (such as the one in the swimming pool where her gender is an explicit issue), it deepens convincingly to a more typical male voice.

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I think Michelle would love to hear that people are assuming she was born female. Just goes to show that the inner self is the most true :)



Movies are IQ tests; the IMDB boards are how people broadcast their score.

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I think Michelle would love to hear that people are assuming she was born female.

Ahh, so he's actually a man? That explains a lot.

I have to say, he's FAR more convincing as a female, on screen, than most other M>F trannies I've seen, who aren't passable, at all.

The voice, though, was a dead giveaway. His doesn't sound like a female voice at all, but more like a MTFTG. I was thinking perhaps it was an overdub, or an electronic modification.

My kudos, though, to him, for about the most successful LOOKING TG I have ever seen (even though it was just in a couple minutes of trailer).



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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

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[deleted]

Please don't call her a man or a tranny. Even if you don't agree with transgenderism there's no need to be nasty about it.

"Tranny" wasn't meant with derision; it's just what I thought the normal slang term was for transgenders. But as for calling him a man... I'm not the one who coded his DNA... not nastiness, just fact.


Michelle's voice does still sound a bit masculine though I've heard other transgirls who sound 100% feminine.

I would go with more than "a bit", but I'm sure some achieve a reasonable similarity to real women. However, I've always been amazed how badly the voices of many TG's fit the new "assignment". Sometimes it sounds like they're really trying, but just can't swing it, sometimes it sounds like they're not really trying at all, more than most flames. It's surprising, with all the other rather incredible surgery docs perform to accomplish what they do, there's not a "vocal chord trimming" procedure to feminize the voice at least a little.




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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

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[deleted]

Well, even if I agreed with you here, does it really hurt you to call transgender people by teh pronouns they prefer to go by?

It just feels like it's buying in to the notion that we ought to widely accept them as genuine women (or men in the other case), socially, as if it's being rammed down our throats.

I can respect that these people have had a lot of pain and agony in their lives, otherwise they would never opt to go through anything so radical (with the possible exception of the likes of Bruce Jenner, who might be largely envious of the attention his no-talent stepdaughters are getting, who knows), but it doesn't change facts.

Hell, I'd be just fine with eliminating gender-specific pronouns from our vernacular, entirely (or at least having viable alternatives). But, for now, we're forced to choose.


I believe South Korea is the most advanced with such techniques but obviously flying to South Korea to have an expensive surgery isn't an option for many people.

Wow, surprising SK is leading the pack. Although I guess there's less beaurocrasy there than here.

Still, though, I'd think with the enormous money people spend on their surgeries and treatments, a single trip to SK wouldn't be that much more, especially since the costs are probably enough lower over there to justify the expense of the trip. Just as I've heard of people traveling to Mexico from the US for various procedures, especially dental work.



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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

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[deleted]

Is it a fact that transwomen have XY chromosomes? Yes.

Which is primarily the scientific determining factor for "male" vs "female".



Is it a fact that we must refer to all people with XY chromosomes by masculine pronouns? No, that's completely subjective.

If it's subjective, that simply means neither of us could disparage the other for our choice of usage.


And transwomen don't like to be referred to as such so why are you compelled to do so?

What a person "likes" isn't necessarily reflective of common definition. I had a friend who didn't "like" anyone to say he was from Detroit. Nonetheless, that's where he was from. If it was common knowledge, it seems thus moot that people talk of it. (It might have been different were it a closely-guarded secret)




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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

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[deleted]

Kiera85 has already made most of the important points, but there are a couple of things I'd like to add:
Firstly, and most importantly, sex and gender are separate. Sex is a biological classification tool (far from perfect, see below), gender is a social construct. At the moment we primarily asign gender by the sex a person appears to have at birth. This does not work. Plenty of people simply do not feel right identifying as the gender they were asigned at birth. And you know why? Because they aren't that gender. For example (and the Carl Sagan quote in your signature makes me hope that evidence is indeed something that affects you) male to female transgender individuals have brain structures much more similar to cis (cis means identifying as the gender one was asigned at birth) females than males.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/
There are also people who identify with no gender, another gender, several genders at the same time, or feel they're gender identity is fluid. These are all just as valid as identities as cis identities. Gender dysphoria is real and it's not a mental disease.
Secondly, the male/female binary sex classification system is far from perfect and doesn't apply to many humans. There are, eg, intersex people, or hermaphrodites (not a term I like to use, but at least you'll know of them). In other animals, sex is changeable.

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Firstly, and most importantly, sex and gender are separate. Sex is a biological classification tool (far from perfect, see below), gender is a social construct.
That differentiation isn't endemic to the definitions themselves, but close enough and I'm willing to accept those definitions for purposes of discussion.


And you know why? Because they aren't that gender.

That's where it gets a LOT fuzzier, and I don't buy the current attempts to classify dysphoria as a simple cross-wiring, so to speak.


male to female transgender individuals have brain structures much more similar to cis (cis means identifying as the gender one was asigned at birth) females than males.

True, and that CAN explain a lot, but there's a huge gap in the causality involved. There is a whole school that argues most of the neurological differences we see between sexes are actually resulting from upbringing (not that I'm going to try to argue that either way, here.

Not to mention that a few similarities in structure, even behavior, which might explain a certain identification with certain observed behaviors, does not a "brain in the wrong gender's body" scenario, make.

Bottom line, there are still far too many unknowns to assign causality in this, and certainly no basis to state, definitively, that surgery to mimic the other sex/gender (in most cases, more gender than sex, according to your definitions) is a "cure", more than just a salve.



There are also people who identify with no gender, another gender, several genders at the same time, or feel they're gender identity is fluid.

Understood. I, personally, don't feel "locked" into my gender, by your def. I very much feel the male SEX, but I feel quite free to do anything either social gender would. Which is also interesting that TGs are so neurotically invested in changing their outward appearance, especially in terms of socially constructed gender traits and how others perceive them.


Gender dysphoria is real and it's not a mental disease.

Impossible to claim with current data. Especially since it does not explain the huge connection to social gender roles.



Secondly, the male/female binary sex classification system is far from perfect and doesn't apply to many humans.

Agree - especially in regards to behavior, etc. I find it odd we need to categorize people so fundamentally, that way, even from the moment of birth.


In other animals, sex is changeable.

If you're a frog, indeed. 


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You spell God with a G, I spell Nature with an N. Capital. - Frank Lloyd Wright

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as if it's being rammed down our throats


...and there's the classic soundbyte.

Nobody is ramming anything down your throat, figuratively or literally. Things exist. Wanting to pretend they don't is your issue, and you can't claim that the world is ramming itself down your throat by existing. Maybe you don't like spiders, either, but if you see one on the wall do you accuse the world of ramming them down your throat?

Reality is going to happen no matter how much you don't want it to. If you want to close your eyes and plug your ears and go "la la la" so you don't see and hear things that challenge the status quo of your world view, you may do so. But perhaps you should avoid media of all types. And art. And leaving your house.




Movies are IQ tests; the IMDB boards are how people broadcast their score.

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Nobody is ramming anything down your throat, figuratively or literally.

I actually don't feel that way, because were I to have anything thus rammed, it would be because I allowed it. Hence my use of the term "he" when referring to a man, whether or not he had a certain operation...



Things exist. Wanting to pretend they don't is your issue, and you can't claim that the world is ramming itself down your throat by existing.

That's a completely different topic from the one at hand. The issue wasn't what existed. I have no problem speaking of anything which exists, even respectfully and with curiosity, as long as that's the way other parties choose to conduct themselves (respectfully), as well. No... the issue here is what I might CALL a man who underwent TG surgery.


Maybe you don't like spiders, either, but if you see one on the wall do you accuse the world of ramming them down your throat?

Again, I suggest you read my posts. You're way off the mark, here.



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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

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I had to look her up and research to figure out if she was transgender. I assumed she was female playing transgender. Excellent actress.

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most trannies look almost as unconvincing as they sound.
Not only is that a wildly insensitive thing to say, it's also quite stupid. What you're really saying is that most transwomen that you've recognized as transwomen didn't convince you they were women. Well of course not, by definition. What you have no idea about is how many transwomen you've encountered without realizing that they're trans, so you really have no idea about the general population of transfolk.

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[deleted]

Not only is that a wildly insensitive thing to say, it's also quite stupid.

You're tipping your hand as to how biased you are by opening with such a statement. I'll play along for just a moment but it's hard to take people who twist the facts just to make sophomoric insults, seriously.



What you have no idea about is how many transwomen you've encountered without realizing that they're trans

That argument might hold water IF there were no such things as interviews, documentaries, or various other media coverage of TGs, not to mention the ones who openly admit it.

So, you'd have to be arguing this media coverage is all somehow stacked to portray only the unconvincing ones, and that the TG population is radically different than anything most people not in that community has ever seen, from interviews to documentaries to youtube.



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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

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I'm not playing a game here and I hope you aren't either. I simply state the facts as I see them, and it is my opinion that your comments were insulting and ignorant.

I don't know what you mean about interviews and documentaries. When someone being interviewed is identified as transsexual, you know that they're transsexual. When they're not identified, then you won't know. When you go about your day you will encounter two types of transsexuals: those that you recognize as such and those you don't. You can count the people in the first category, but you will never know how many are in the second.

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I simply state the facts as I see them, and it is my opinion that your comments were insulting and ignorant.

You went beyond that, in your epithets. And I pointed out where your point was missing a few merits, regarding my observations.


I don't know what you mean about interviews and documentaries. When someone being interviewed is identified as transsexual, you know that they're transsexual. When they're not identified, then you won't know.

Sigh. I don't know how better to make the point, in a short time. Of course, you're right in that one fact. But the fact is, that those who are identified are almost always quite unconvincing as women.

So, unless you're making the point that the representative sample of those identifying themselves, both in media and real life, are so heavily stacked that almost NONE of the identifying group are convincingly female, then the concept of the representative sample is at work, here.

You might as well be claiming that very few people from Alabama have a southern accent, or that almost no one born in Kenya is black, simply because there are those from Alabama or Kenya who have not identified themselves as such.

Now, if you wish, you could easily demonstrate my observations are erroneous by presenting a substantial sampling of admitted M>F TGs who are convincingly female. If you could present videos of, say, a couple dozen, I'd be willing to reconsider my observations. This is an easy way to say "you're full of b----t!" 







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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

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[deleted]

Some fairly good ones on that list; a lot better than many I'd seen before.

Still, though, it's not quite on the level of a long list of completely convincing TGW.

I would say perhaps half of those I wouldn't be able to tell right off, a few of those I wouldn't tell immediately from their faces (but would after a little time, and could tell immediately from the voice), a couple would take a little time to suspect they were TG, overall, and perhaps two of them, I might not be sure, even with some time spent with them.

That's better than what I previously would have expected, though, since I've run into a number in the "they must be joking" category.



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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

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[deleted]

I said

I simply state the facts as I see them, and it is my opinion that your comments were insulting and ignorant.
and you replied
You went beyond that, in your epithets
You mean when I called you stupid? Your generalization from transfolk you've been able to read to those that you missed, is an error that even many young children don't even make. If you're an adult with worse reasoning skills than a 5th grader, I think it's fair to call you stupid. Is that a nice way to put it? Definitely not, but given your deeply and perhaps intentionally insulting statements, it's deserving. Still, I'll back off if you will.

So, you'd have to be arguing this media coverage is all somehow stacked to portray only the unconvincing ones, and that the TG population is radically different than anything most people not in that community has ever seen, from interviews to documentaries to youtube.
It's called "being in transition" for a reason which is that it generally comes to an end when the person usually blends back into society. That happens more by understanding and participating in the roles and social contracts involved in their new gender than by any outward appearance. The media is always looking for the most dramatic and eye-catching content, so they seek out transfolk in mid-transition simply because fully transitioned people tend to be far less interesting to their audiences. Also, fully transitioned people are much more difficult to find because they tend to drift away from the trans communities where TG folks are easily found. In other words, they're competing to feed you freak shows because you like freak shows. What you see in the media about the lives of transfolk says more about *you* than it does about them.

Even if I did put together a list of videos containing fully transitioned transfolk for you to examine, your skill at picking out hints of their pasts would prove nothing because you'd be expecting to see transfolk. You'd be surprised how many of them you see and interact with without ever getting a clue, even when the clues might be obvious if only you had thought to look for them. And that's really the whole point. It's the gender roles that are most important for both transfolk and society in general, not each person's history or plumbing. I suggest that you simply take everyone at face-value until they give you reason to do otherwise.

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You mean when I called you stupid?

That was one.


Your generalization from transfolk you've been able to read to those that you missed, is an error that even many young children don't even make.

Which was only YOUR misinterpretation of what I wrote, an error I tried to explain to you, but I imagine you don't wish to hear it.



but given your deeply and perhaps intentionally insulting statements, it's deserving.

Ever hear of a straw man? You might want to look it up.

It's easy to tear down a misrepresentation you create, for yourself. The problem is, it's not a genuine effigy.


Still, I'll back off if you will.

I was never on the offensive.


The media is always looking for the most dramatic and eye-catching content, so they seek out transfolk in mid-transition simply because fully transitioned people tend to be far less interesting to their audiences.

Media hype is a given. Which is why to have said "you probably don't know what is out there because most of the TGs who are completely transitioned are keeping silent, and the media won't have given you a fair cross section", is a fair statement. One that a person may or not completely agree with, but is a valid point of reason.



Even if I did put together a list of videos containing fully transitioned transfolk for you to examine, your skill at picking out hints of their pasts would prove nothing because you'd be expecting to see transfolk.

Insofar as "proof" goes, no, it "proves" nothing. However, it does go a long way in demonstrating the bias of the media. Just as the other poster did precisely that, and I admitted many of them were more convincing than I might have expected; and that's allowing for attempting to put myself in the position of "what would I think if I'd met this person without having any idea of their background?"

For what it's worth, I do have a genuine curiosity what the real level of success might be, more so that following any agenda or personal bias.



It's the gender roles that are most important for both transfolk and society in general, not each person's history or plumbing.

I'm actually a critic of most gender roles, anyway, and there are other dimensions of the whole "gender ROLES vs TG-ism" scenario, but those are longer topics unto themselves.


I suggest that you simply take everyone at face-value until they give you reason to do otherwise.

Which is actually what I do, personally. Most people, I don't care what they are, per se, in ordinary, daily interaction. To have a specific conversation, however, on transgenderism, specifically, is another matter, since it's focusing on that topic. Usually such things only come in play in personal conversations or, of course, when it comes to dating someone... in which case, you'd bet I'd want to know! LOL



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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

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I don't have the attention span to read this entire thread but I feel I should point out that "trannies" is not pc.

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[deleted]

Couldn't convince him not to refer to Michelle as a man though!

Well, I can avoid a term which is slang, to begin with, which may sound like one of derision from the onset.

Male vs female, though, is just a fact of biology  No offense intended, in that. I just don't buy into the notion that calling yourself something different and changing a few cosmetic factors makes one another gender.


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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

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Biology in what regard? If we're going by chromosomes, there are XX men (XX Male Syndrome) and XY women (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome). There are also a number of conditions which result in someone not being XX or XY.

If we're going by physical features, there are a number of variances there, too. Approximately 1% of the population is estimated to be intersex in some way, and 0.1 - 0.2% of births are ambiguous enough to require medical attention. So using either of these criteria to define maleness or femaleness is leaving out a lot of people.

If you know of a binary criteria of male/female which works in all cases, I'd love to hear it. I'm completely unfamiliar with such a thing.

But, even if you actually do, and I suspect you don't, it's just common decency to refer to a trans person by their chosen name and pronouns. Doing so doesn't hurt you in any way; however, refusing offers no obvious benefits, needlessly hurts the feelings of others, and makes you look like a jerk. I don't get the point.

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Biology in what regard? If we're going by chromosomes, there are XX men (XX Male Syndrome) and XY women (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome).

Those situations, though, become problematic when faced with conventional definitions of "male" and "female".

In general, in normal health, yes, chromosones are the main determining factor, biologically. Unless you want to go by hormones in the sexual developmental stages, but that's more difficult to pin down.

What it isn't, though, is wearing a few clothes, getting a little surgery (sometimes not even the full monty), and calling ones self something else.



it's just common decency to refer to a trans person by their chosen name and pronouns.

To their face, I probably would. As you said, it's the decent thing, primarily as I wouldn't wish to make my entire interaction with the person about that.

Frankly, I am of the mind society demands far too much separation along gender lines, anyway (pronouns being a prime example), but since we're stuck with things as they are...


however, refusing offers no obvious benefits, needlessly hurts the feelings of others, and makes you look like a jerk. I don't get the point.

It only makes one look like a "jerk" to certain people. More than anything, it's a rebellion against the whole PC movement.




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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan

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Oh, ffs! Would it be that difficult for you to actually respect someone and refer to them as the gender with which he or she identifies?? No-one cares about your personal philosophies on gender or chromosomes or DNA or what "notions" you "buy into". It takes NO effort on your part to actually think of how someone else feels and refer to him or her properly. A winky smilie face doesn't make your opinions any less offensive.

I'm also calling bs on you're not knowing that the term "TRANNY is offensive. Give me a break. Did you take a nap in 1960 and just wake up?

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But it seems like some people get more consideration than others, for things like their sexuality, gender identity or race. How is tranny more offensive than any other word?

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Oh, enough with your tedious rants about biology, X & Y chromosomes, and the like. Have you ever stopped to consider that we are more than just biology? That we are, perhaps, more than just our bodies? Our BODIES are made up of flesh, tissue, bone, DNA, etc., but, that hardly defines us 100%. It's only a piece of the equation that defines us.

If you were to lose one of your limbs, would that make you any less "you"? No, because, your CONSCIOUSNESS has nothing to do with what you look like. Your consciousness isn't the color of your hair, or the color of your eyes, or the color of your skin. Your consciousness is something that is a divine spark that makes you unique, different, and is like a thumbprint that separates you apart from everyone else.

Biology cannot explain consciousness 100%. People will argue that the brain is where our consciousness comes from. However, biology can't explain everything. If biology and science could explain everything, then, there wouldn't be so many accounts of the mysterious, the divine, and of the miraculous.

For example, there are many people (mostly children) who are remembering their past lives nowadays. Some of these children / people remember being the opposite gender in a past life. They made an entire documentary about it, and beyond that, there have been many reported cases of people remembering their past lives. I have two members in my own family who remember at least one of their past lives, and, one of my family members does remember being the opposite sex in a past life.

All of that aside, however, I'm not here to preach or spread around my New Age philosophies. That's not my intention AT ALL.

What I am trying to say is that, regardless of any religious or spiritual affiliations, we all cannot deny ONE THING: consciousness is not biology. Consciousness is not the color of your hair. It's not the color of your skin. It's not how tall you are, or how short you are. It's not what gender you are, either.

If you were raised in a solitary room, all alone, without any mirrors, without ever seeing the opposite sex, and without anyone around to tell you that you are either definitely male or female, then, would you identify with your X or Y chromosomes all that strongly? No. You'd be aware of your existence. You'd be aware of your surrounds. You'd be aware of the fact that you have thoughts, and that those thoughts come from somewhere, but, you wouldn't have too many thoughts about gender or gender roles, etc.

So, this brings me back to my point. What are we? Are we merely biology? No. We are conscious, sentient beings. Who cares where that consciousness comes from? Atheists will argue that we are merely our brains and nothing more. Theists will argue that our consciousness comes from a "soul" or a "spirit" -- regardless, it's still consciousness, nonetheless. Consciousness and biology are not the same. That inner voice in our heads? Our inner thoughts, our inner dreams, our inner feelings and emotions? Those feelings, thoughts, and emotions don't care about biology.

If someone grows up and that inner voice inside of them keeps telling them that they are the opposite gender, then, should they just deny that inner voice? If someone's "soul" or "spirit" (aka consciousness) keeps yearning to be the opposite gender, then, should they just deny it all for the sake of biology? Should someone stop listening to their inner thoughts, stop listening to their inner voice, and stop dreaming about something that they long for, all for the sake of... biology?

I don't think so.

Our bodies are a vessel. Our thoughts, our MIND, is what makes us our true selves. Biology is responsible for our bodies. Bodies are like vessels. Bodies are like cars or boats. Our MINDS, our consciousness, is what is in the driver's seat, however.

So, if someone feels that they are the opposite sex, then, why deny them the usage of proper pronouns? Oh, right! Because their biology says so. I forgot that that was your logic.

So, if someone lost all of their arms and legs, would you refer to that person as 1/2 man or 1/2 woman? Since they'd be missing quite a large chunk of their biological selves. No. Why? Because your body, your limbs, etc. does not make up the fundamental part of you. Your thoughts, your hopes, your dreams -- THAT makes up who we are. Biology just gives us a physical three dimensional vessel which we operate.

After all, they say that life is all about perception. Biology and physical bodies aside, what are we left with? Thoughts, hopes, emotions, dreams, etc. So, if someone's inner voice, inner thoughts, and inner dreams keep telling them that they are the opposite sex, then, who are you (or anyone) to deny them the right to proper pronouns? Because biology says so?

Since when is biology more important than someone's consciousness and psychology? If someone wants to define themselves as being the opposite gender, then, is that truly less important than biology?

That's like saying "You shouldn't dye your hair because your original hair color is part of your BIOLOGY"

Life is all about what we WANT. If you want to get a tattoo, get a tattoo. No one goes to the tattoo parlor and says to themselves: "Hmm... I'm about to dirty up my skin with ink and mess with my largest biological bodily organ"

No one dyes their hair and says: "Hmm... biology and DNA gave me brown hair, so, I shouldn't dye my hair blonde..."

Therefore, why should someone say: "I shouldn't be transgender, even though I REALLY want to, with every ounce of my being, because of... biology"?

It's a ridiculous argument. We are more than just our bodies. Period.

Start referring to transgender people using the RIGHT pronouns that they deserve to be called. Forget X & Y chromosomes. Forget biology. That stuff doesn't 100% make up a person. A person is more than just biology. A person is more than just flesh and DNA. And, people deserve respect.

Also, fun fact: transgender people are sometimes created by nature. Go read up about androgen insensitivity syndrome. Androgen insensitivity syndrome is basically mother nature's own natural way of making a transgender person. Girls born with androgen insensitivity syndrome are actually genetically male. Meaning -- gasp -- they have male chromosomes!!! However, when these girls are born, and as they grow up, their bodies are completely resistant to male hormones. Thus, these girls who have XY chromosomes, and are genetically male, literally have a defect that makes them insensitive to male hormones. Thus, they grow up looking, sounding, acting, and thinking that they are 100% female. A lot of them don't even know that they are genetically male until they never get their periods or want to become sexually active and realize that the vagina isn't fully developed. They don't have a penis, FYI. But still, their chromosomes and "biology" is 100% male. Go read up about the disorder, sometimes. So, basically, some girls literally live up until they are 16 years old or older, and, they never get their period, they go to the doctor, and they find out that they have male chromosomes. In reality, they are male, but, the penis never developed and they look 100% female due to their bodies resisting the effects of testosterone. Basically, it's a transgender person made 100% by mother nature.

So, would one of those androgen insensitivity syndrome girls stop and say...

"Wow, I've spent 16+ years of my life looking like a girl, acting like a girl, thinking I'm a girl, feeling like a girl... but, now that I know that I'm genetically male, I'm going to start using male pronouns and identify as a male, all for the sake of BIOLOGY and what my CHROMOSOMES tell me I should be"? No, that'd be ridiculous.

See, even mother nature creates transgender people, sometimes.

Your argument about biology and XY chromosomes dictating who we should or shouldn't identify as? Is irrelevant.


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Oh, enough with your tedious rants about biology, X & Y chromosomes, and the like

Heh... so you send a multi-page, vitriolic message... and start it off calling MY posts "tedious rants"? Too funny...


Not that your entire tome is something I was in the mood to read. Too long, too ranting, too one-sided.

I'll just throw out one reply to a comment you wrote near the end:


See, even mother nature creates transgender people, sometimes.

If they were "created" by nature, as opposed to some malady like any number of psychological issues are, then it was certain a major screw-up on mom nature's part, if these people are SOOO miserable that they require the intervention of surgical techniques only developed in the smallest fraction of the history of humankind.

There's no reason to go on bickering about what really causes TG-ism. You just seem upset that I view it as a malady instead of just a legit optional alternative which is purely natural, and that I don't buy some of the rhetoric being thrown around about it.

What counts is we're all free to live as we choose, and while I might not always agree, I respect others' right to their choices.



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You spell God with a G, I spell Nature with an N. Capital. - Frank Lloyd Wright

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Seriously... Does any of this really matter, one way or the other? Isn't it more important to just be kind to one another, look out for each others's feelings than to worry about what handle is most "accurate" to call another by?

Can't we just lead with love and caring and forget about being "right"? What would that cost us, after all? And how would the payoff compare to the hollow victory of "you are technically right"? Why hurt another just to make a point?

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Seriously... Does any of this really matter, one way or the other? Isn't it more important to just be kind to one another, look out for each others's feelings ...

I'm with you on that part.



than to worry about what handle is most "accurate" to call another by?

When you say that, you may want to consider who is flying off the handle at what term is being used, and who is simply using the term which he considers fitting.



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You spell God with a G, I spell Nature with an N. Capital. - Frank Lloyd Wright

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[deleted]

So if I wish to be called "your holiness", I ought to expect people call me that lest I suggest my feelings might be hurt?

Funny you mention that about black people. Not so long ago, calling them "colored" was considered to be the respectable thing to do. Yet now supposedly not keeping up with the epithet do jour is supposedly an issue of contention, worthy of getting offended over. It gets to be a bit absurd. Now, there are some terms, in particular ones which begin with N, that everyone knows is a term of derision. Yet why do we play all the games with other terms?

People are sometimes just looking for a reason to get "offended". And all based on superficial fluff instead of the substantive issues behind.



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You spell God with a G, I spell Nature with an N. Capital. - Frank Lloyd Wright

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[deleted]

calling a transwoman "he" invalidates her entire identity and everything she's trying to achieve

And what would that achievement be?



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You spell God with a G, I spell Nature with an N. Capital. - Frank Lloyd Wright

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[deleted]

Not always a viable option.

We all should accept one's rights to be and do as they please, so long as they don't directly harm others or impede others' rights to do the same, but we also have the right whether we'll accept someone "AS" something, or not, just because they claim it.


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You spell God with a G, I spell Nature with an N. Capital. - Frank Lloyd Wright

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Interesting viewpoint because of how specious it is yet I'm sure you think it's intellectually and logically sound.

While many people (including trans people) will use the terms male, female, man and woman to express the gender without being explicit they are not referring to their biological sex/sex chromosomes but their gender identity. Obviously they cannot ever change their DNA. And majority of trans people aren't intersex.

So get past that and let it penetrate that these people's need for acceptance and validation through hearing the preferred pronoun is essential for their mental health and dignity. Just as someone treating you as the opposite of your gender/sex would cause you discomfort and anger. Now no one can fault you for an initial mistake of misgendering someone or using the wrong pronouns within reason if there presentation is very ambiguous and you just aren't aware. Just be polite about it and respect their wishes when they do make it clear what they prefer or if someone else clues you in. If you can't do that than don't talk to them or about them at all because your just being a smug butt hole.

See I can call you a different name than the one you have and it's not technically harming you in any way or impeding your rights. But guess what, it would really bother you if I was a stranger or I knew your actual name but I called you something else.

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[deleted]

Interesting viewpoint because of how specious it is yet I'm sure you think it's intellectually and logically sound.

And I'm sure you think that attempt to discredit my statement with an ad hominem actually won some people over...


So get past that and let it penetrate that these people's need for acceptance and validation through hearing the preferred pronoun is essential for their mental health and dignity.

Placating a mental disorder doesn't mean it's a step towards "mental health". It may take away some of the sting and reduce symptoms, but it doesn't mean it's health. And sure as hell not "dignity". Even people who bite their tongues aren't thinking of them as "dignified" for having done so. At least no one not drinking the SJW Koolaid.


Just as someone treating you as the opposite of your gender/sex would cause you discomfort and anger.

A small amount. I would find it more curious, though, than anything, then I'd shrug my shoulders and move on, as someone whose opinion I did not respect holds no sway over me.


Just be polite about it and respect their wishes when they do make it clear what they prefer or if someone else clues you in.

Interestingly enough, to a person's face, I usually play along, because I'm not in the business of causing emotional dissonance just in a passing encounter. But if they asked me my opinions, I'd be open in discussing them.


See I can call you a different name than the one you have and it's not technically harming you in any way or impeding your rights. But guess what, it would really bother you if I was a stranger or I knew your actual name but I called you something else.

I may not care for it, depending, but here is a huge difference: It's not going to affect my inner core, or cause me any actual distress, and I'm not going to feel some emotional NEED to convince them otherwise. I just wouldn't care enough.

If I cared that much... I'd better get my ass into therapy as opposed to externalize that need to prove myself to strangers.



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You spell God with a G, I spell Nature with an N. Capital. - Frank Lloyd Wright

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I've read through this whole thread and couldn't believe what I was reading. Although you sound educated, you also seem to be very boxed in. And very, very disrespectful. You really don't have any grasp of transgenderism.

I myself am transgender and I'm not easily insulted. I don't demand much other than people treat me as a person, a human being equally to them. If somebody says "him/he" to me I'm not easily offended, it's just something that can happen. But deliberaty using him/he while someone is obviously presenting herself as a woman, is just pure disrespect. Yes, even anouncing it on internet. Who knows how many transgendered people have read this thread.
I'm not into pronouns and such, because I know a lot of people still have to come to terms with it. But it just shows someone that you respect their decision and their being there. And what they have been or are going through.

Your disregard to any emotion makes me think that you have a severe case of autism.

Science is proving more that transgenderism happens during the time the foetus accepts/rejects hormones. Since body and brain are developed on different times, the body and brain can accept/reject different hormones. Thus developing a male body and a female brain, or vice versa. I'm not going too much into this, because I don't know everything about it.
And there is a big difference in "playing" a woman or really feeling like a woman. I've talked to many, transgenders, tranvestites/crossdress (fetisj or not) and I've noticed some important differences. Those who really feel the other gender, mostly get that feeling very early in life. Those who tend to get such feelings during puberty, most of the time just do it because it's fun to do or are fetisjist.

I started dressing around the age of 12, but I felt there was something different about me when I was much younger. Very much younger. Although I liked girls, I also wanted to be one. I didn't mind playing soccer, but I didn't want to be obligated to like it. I didn't care if I played with Lego or with Barbie.
From the outside it didn't seem I had any female traits. I didn't move like a girl or anything. But yet I was often made fun of being not though enough and kind of a sissy in way of emotions. I never felt I could be myself without setting myself up for bullying (which sometimes happend, by my own "friends"). I wanted to express myself in a female way, but even at a young age, I wish I couldn't. Having had family that was in psychiatry, I was afraid of where I would end up.
But that didn't stop me from living that life inside of me. I grew up to be a very quiet boy, auto-mode boy, wishing why I wasn't born female.

When internet came, I started looking for information. But it was not the best information. Also, the only term I knew that was "travesty" and got results I was not fond of. Mostly was sexrelated and fetisjes. And I felt really bad about myself. I wasn't untill I found out what "transgenderism" was that I got good information about it.
I had times where I thought dressing up as a woman from time to time was enough, but it ended up not being enough. I was still afraid of taking the necessary steps. Untill I actually had nothing anymore. No job, no girlfriend, ... . And a friend who made me aware that time stops for nobody.
En of 2015 I took the first steps and now I always wonder why I didn't start earlier. I've wasted at least 10years fooling myself I could deny what I felt.

Yes, not all TG "pass" that well. Especially us that started hormone-therapy at a later age. Hormones tend to not take that much effect. And since we already passed puberty, our male contours have already set. Transgenders that start before/during their puberty mostly end up looking "the real part". So I'm glad they don't have to endure the "scoring" as they do with us older generation. We are measured by how through to form we look like. And not everybody of us is that lucky in that department. I have broad shoulders and had to have a FFS jaw surgery, because I had a very masculine chin/jawline.
And about those operations. Do you think transgenders are rich? Do you have any idea how hard it is for a transgender to come up with money. We still face discrimination when applying for jobs. I'm a bachelor in IT and only was able to get a parttime job for cleaning other peoples homes.
Those surgery's are expensive, so we have to be carefull which surgery we get, if we even can. Yes, there is vocal chords operations, but it isn't without risk. You have the risk of losing your voice completely. Many opt for speech therapy. And then it's even ill advised to go above 40Hz difference. Going too high can give a more fake sounding voice and over time can be very bad for your vocal chords. Although I'm able to get my voice in the female range, my speech therapist advised against it and said to go back a bit lower. Which leaves me just below female voice range, but is more realistic and less strain on the vocal chords.


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A transgender point of view - http://transgender.eyeemotion.be

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I've read through this whole thread and couldn't believe what I was reading. Although you sound educated, you also seem to be very boxed in. And very, very disrespectful.

Interesting you feel the need to start off with such a tone. Not sure if it makes you feel better to engage in insults or if you feel it makes your points stronger; in either case, I don't take things written here personally and you do have some other things to say so I will proceed nonetheless.



But deliberaty using him/he while someone is obviously presenting herself as a woman, is just pure disrespect. Yes, even anouncing it on internet. Who knows how many transgendered people have read this thread.

I do see a bit of difference between discussions on the internet, in discussions specifically ABOUT transgenderism, vs blatantly using the undesired pronoun in unrelated conversation, face to face. Not that I wouldn't discuss these issues FtF, but only if the topic came up in a candid venue. Which is more like what a discussion forum is.

Personally I'd be just as happy if society could dispense with gender specific pronouns as a requirement. But that's not going to happen any time soon.


Your disregard to any emotion makes me think that you have a severe case of autism.

LOL. So what would make you think that, anyway? Especially in such an expressionless media as text? Funny how you seek to personalize it, thus.

Just because things boil down a certain way in facts doesn't mean I don't think there are some very real emotions at stake.




Science is proving more that transgenderism happens during the time the foetus accepts/rejects hormones.

It's not surprising the findings are suggesting hormonal issues. I don't think many people are suggesting it's all in the imagination. There's clearly a root there, somewhere, to make it so important to the people affected. What I disagree with is the oversimplification some like to claim, such as simply "born in the wrong gender's body" or whatever. It also wouldn't explain the significant social issues which take place. The mind and psyche are very complex; the only things we can say are "yes there is likely a hormonal issue playing a role" and "there is a real psychological issue which causes great anxiety for the subject."



And there is a big difference in "playing" a woman or really feeling like a woman.

Clearly, there's something more than just "feeling like a woman" at stake. One could "feel like a woman" without feeling torn apart by not being perceived by society as one. There's something more which compels TG's to feel such a need to be perceived as a woman, by others. What that is, is a matter for further research and discussion


Those who really feel the other gender, mostly get that feeling very early in life.

Not surprising. Which also tends to support the notion there's something deeper at play beyond normal perceptions and issues of gender.


But yet I was often made fun of being not though enough and kind of a sissy in way of emotions. I never felt I could be myself without setting myself up for bullying (which sometimes happend, by my own "friends").

Which sometimes happens with a number of guys, even those who don't feel "female". Indeed, I never wanted to bully, either, nor did I feel compelled to a lot of the "jock" things, and had no problems crying, etc, although I had no connection with that being "female". By that, I don't mean to make that sound better or worse, just point out that those particular things are out of the "norm" for "male" in our society, but aren't always compulsions towards feeling a different gender. There was clearly something else at play in your case.



Yes, not all TG "pass" that well.

I haven't really found any that pass well, to be honest. I've seen some linked online which are better than others, but even the best of those would leave me wondering "is that really a guy?" By that, I don't mean to be insulting. I realize it's a choice, but it's a reality to be faced. A drag queen, for instance, usually is obviously a guy, but clearly is playing a role, and most people get with the program and join in the fun. So there are options to express femininity without trying to pass, unnoticed, which, for what it's worth, may not be possible.


Transgenders that start before/during their puberty mostly end up looking "the real part".

Surely they would, indeed, be more convincing.

For what it's worth, women who go TG are usually more successful, since they tend to have more a change in voice, and it's easier to build muscle and bulk than get rid of it. Plus there are plenty of smaller guys. A lot fewer women, for instance, who are 6' tall and broad shouldered with size 12 feet.


As for the monetary issues and the rest, there's no question it's a struggle for those who face it. Some people might like to reduce it to "just doing it for attention", but no one goes through all that just for attention. I recall there was a woman on Dr Phil, once, who poured drain cleaner in her eyes to go blind. She went to doctors trying to have her eyes removed, but no one would do it. Is she just "crying for attention?" Hell no. She has a major psychological issue to contend with, and it's probably an offshoot of what leads some to wish to change genders. People don't pour drain cleaner in their eyes just for attention, nor do they go through hell to imitate the features of a different gender.


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You spell God with a G, I spell Nature with an N. Capital. - Frank Lloyd Wright

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[deleted]

You're the worst kind of person. I hope your worldview improves, otherwise what a bleak existence you must live. I kinda feel sorry for you that the best thing you can do with your time is spread hate online.

Interestingly, your post is much more hateful than anything I've written. You explicitly call someone you don't know "the worst kind of person".

If you actually bothered to read anything I wrote, you might see I'm not advocating any sort of "hatred" whatsoever. Not agreeing with what some people claim doesn't mean I advocate hating someone different. If anything, I feel we need to approach differences with a modicum of compassion.



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You spell God with a G, I spell Nature with an N. Capital. - Frank Lloyd Wright

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You need to learn about the transgender community because your post is very ignorant and you are coming across as very transphobic. Please stop the ignorance.

Hugs

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Waving around terms like "ignorance" just because someone doesn't see things the way you do is part of the PC intolerance which is dividing people.

That's how cult mentalities form. Anyone who disagrees gets called "ignorant", without even an attempt to recognize whether the person in question actually understand a hell of a lot more than you might allow yourself to believe.


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"Make America HATE again!"
- Paraphrasing Donald Trump

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I'm actually transgender myself but I have been put off by the gay and trans "communities". I knew several trans girls that verbally abused me when they found out I had a disabled brother, which I though was pretty hypocritical since they know how it feels to have people be intolerant themselves. When I mentioned this incident on a forum for trans people, quite a few of the other trans women there were very dismissive about it, telling me to "atop whining" even though they're more than happy to listen to "whining" about transgender issues.

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That sounds very strange, to abuse someone because of a disabled sibling.

No matter what, no one deserves to be verbally abused based on status, opinion, etc. We should be able to have those differences, which include difference of opinion, without nastiness. Even if we think, and express, "I think you're wrong" about a given topic.


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"Make America HATE again!"
- Paraphrasing Donald Trump

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