Not every female needs romantic overtures to get that a guy is into her. I for one hated dating in high school because dudes thought because they liked me that meant they got to touch, grab, caress or grope me...eww.
Well then, you are unusual. Most women appreciate and enjoy romance. I agree, unwanted grabbing and grouping can be offensive. But respectable, erotic and provocative touching can be very exciting. And there are many non-touching ways to flirt and be romantic. And what about kissing and the sweet embrace?
Gabriel's approach was my style and I suspect, a breath of fresh air for modern women who appreciate a guy who can show his attraction via actions and words without getting all handsy. Gabriel and her had a lot of sexual tension they were beyond cliche flirting there were quite a few times in the film where he stepped close to her to let her feel the heat between them and she felt it but kept resisting, why I don't know? This was a different time and flirting and grabbing a naive girls punanny to show your interest was a sure sign that you were a class A super rat with no respect for her and the soldier guy proved that. Trust me as a grown woman I don't want a flirt I want a guy who will help me, take care of things, let me know of problems in advance, be a confidant and someone who I can depend on for advice and Gabriel was all that. Real love is a partnership and it is about working side by side to make life better. Gabriel was winning from the beginning and she was too clueless to see that.
Most women want a man who is decisive, has initiative and goes after what he wants. Just like the famous Cheap Trick song says, "I Want You to Want Me", women want to feel desired and wanted. There was no way Bathsheba could tell if Gabriel wanted her because he never made a move after his simple-minded proposal. Besides, this was classified as a romance movie. No one in the audience felt romantically or sexually moved by this movie because Gabriel was such a romantic and sexual dead fish. (No one except maybe you.)
You can't help but feel Bathsheba was going to have a lifetime with Gabriel of good, hard work, friendship, trust and faithfulness. But absolutely no romance or sex. Like I said in my last post, "That is just what every woman pines for --- a marriage devoid of romantic and sexual passion". I would fear the next time someone like Frank (the soldier) comes around with "game", Bathsheba will have a hard time resisting her basic instincts. Because they won't be getting satisfied by Gabriel.
The way the soldier wooed her was a little far-fetched, imo, he tells this educated and independent woman she is beautiful and she loses all common sense. That is pure romantic tripe.
Not in my experience. Most women want what Frank was offering --- sexual and romantic excitement. He slept with her almost immediately and he got her to marry him. Because he fulfilled her desire for romance, sex and excitement. She sure wasn't getting that from Gabriel or William. I agree, she was a fool to marry him. Because she didn't know him. But he was entertaining and he made her happy. So, she thought that would continue.
Many times in real life, married women cheat on their husbands. Husbands who are loving, attentive, faithful good husbands and parents, and good providers. Because they are devoid of romantic and sexual passion. Most women want it and need it.
I agree. Gabriel was a good man and he had many good relationship qualities. But he was boring romantically and sexually. She should have gone to London and found a man that had both good relationship qualities and --- romantic and sexual passion. Instead of settling for half a man like Gabriel.
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CatUt
8 years ago
Well you would have to put me down for crushing on Gabriel. I wanted her to fall for him when he brought her the lamb. Women don't cheat on men that are loving, attentive, faithful good husbands and parents, and good providers, they cheat on men to aren't loving and attentive. It's attention to another's needs that builds love. Passion isn't always real love either. It's usually lust. Lust isn't necessarily a bad thing but if it's the only basis of a relationship, well...
Give me the so called boring man who treats me kindly, listens to me and treats me as a true partner. I find that kind of relationship truly exciting.
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movieliker1
8 years ago
Well you would have to put me down for crushing on Gabriel. I wanted her to fall for him when he brought her the lamb. Women don't cheat on men that are loving, attentive, faithful good husbands and parents, and good providers, they cheat on men to aren't loving and attentive. It's attention to another's needs that builds love. Passion isn't always real love either. It's usually lust. Lust isn't necessarily a bad thing but if it's the only basis of a relationship, well...
Give me the so called boring man who treats me kindly, listens to me and treats me as a true partner. I find that kind of relationship truly exciting.
Women do cheat on those men. Because they want romantic and sexual excitement. All those things you mention are good components of a good relationship. But, it is not an either/or proposition. Why not have both? Why settle?
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CatUt
8 years ago
I guess it depends on your idea of passion. I watched my grandparents marriage. They loved each other dearly, even passionately. My grandfather died within 6 mo of my grandmother because he just didn't want to go on with out her. However, it wasn't the romantic and sexual excitement you see in movies. It was the passion that comes from being with someone for 60+ years. Building a life, raising children, dealing with sickness and disappointment. It was the quiet passion.
Sexual excitement sounds fun, interesting and exciting, but it doesn't last. I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to keep it interesting but once you've been with someone for a very long time, it becomes different than when you are first with them. Life happens.
I'm not sure this makes any sense but I can work up a ton of passion for someone who tries , who listens and who cares for me. Someone I can have discussions with or just walk in comfortable silence with. Someone who realizes that I have serious times and silly times and appreciates both. Someone who may not understand why I'm being irrational but is willing to accept that I am going to be passionate about things that may not be important to them. But if it's important to me, it will be important to them. Someone who cares about me above themselves.
There is a couple in my neighborhood who is like that. It gets funny sometimes when they are both trying so hard to put the other first that they actually argue about it. That is my idea relationship. Of course they are both over 80 years old now. So I'm thinking there is probably not much sexual passion but there is love there.
That's what Gabriel represented to me in the movies. That possibility.
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movieliker1
8 years ago
You are talking about something entirely different. Bathsheba and Gabriel were not 60 - 80 years old. Who knows what romantic and sexual passion existed in the relationships of those couples you were referencing when they were young? Certainly, things change over time as we get older. But Bathsheba and Gabriel were still young.
Young women 20 - 40 years old cheat on their mates sometimes if the romantic and sexual passion is lacking. Because we all long for it. 60 - 80 year old women generally don't go out looking for romantic and sexual excitement.
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CatUt
8 years ago
I guess we live in different worlds. In my world it's usually the men who cheat and not the women. If romantic and sexual passion is lacking then you work it out with your spouse. You don't cheat. I've known more men that have cheated than women.
But thanks for the discussion. I understand where you are coming from and maybe being over 45 puts a different perspective on things for me. But I've always been this way. I flirted with the exciting guy for a very short time in my 20s and realized that while it was exciting, he was not the person to try and build a long term relationship with. Most are just not capable or willing. Mostly willing. They like the chase and the honeymoon but life is boring. I watched a woman in my church that we lost count on how many times she had been married. I think she had more husbands that Elizabeth Taylor. She never lasted more than 3 years with any one of them. She liked the excitement of a new relationship but not the long term life building.
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movieliker1
8 years ago
Yes, I think we do live in different worlds. Because I am a man. Married women hit on me all the time. I could have slept with many if my moral constitution was different. And it is not just me. Other men tell me the same thing.
There are countless studies that indicate men and women cheat for different reasons. Men cheat because they are biologically programmed to spread their seed. Women cheat because something is lacking at home. Could be many things that are lacking but one is sexual and/or romantic excitement.
Why do you thing Bathsheba went with the soldier in the first place? She already knew Gabriel was interested. She already knew Gabriel was relationship material. Because he was boring !!! That's why. Everybody wants sex and romance. At least young people do. That is why women sometimes cheat. They are not getting it at home.
REPLY #1 (SEE BELOW FOR REPLY #2)
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CatUt
8 years ago
She went for the soldier because she was young and stupid. The bad boys are usually attractive at one point in someone's life. I admit I dated one for awhile before I came to my senses. So I totally get why and you're right it's the excitement.
I guess I object to his being called boring. It has a negative connotation to me. Yes he wasn't a bad boy and exciting but he wasn't a bore or stupid. He had his own qualities and she was too young and inexperienced to appreciate them or him.
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movieliker1
8 years ago
He was boring because he wasn't romantic or sexy. He didn't flirt. He made no suggestive remarks or actions. He did nothing that was erotic or a turn on. He didn't go after what he wanted. She turned down his pathetic proposal in the beginning of the movie and he never made another move. Even in the end, she had to chase after him, ask him to stay and to get married. He did nothing. He wouldn't even ask her to marry her after she asked him to. He was a loser !!!
She didn't go after the soldier because he was a bad boy. She went after him because he was exciting. It wasn't until later she found out he was a bad boy.
Like I said before, history predicts Gabriel will be a good worker, a good friend and a good partner. But he will be romantically and sexually vacant and unable. She is too young to be settling for that. The next time somebody like that soldier comes around she will have a hard time resisting her baser instincts. That is why women sometimes cheat. Something is lacking at home.
Maybe if you are older, you don't have the same needs and desires. But, young women are different.
She didn't have to settle for that. She could have gone to London and found someone better.
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CatUt
8 years ago
You do realize that this movie took place in the Victorian era? People didn't really think about relationships the way we do now. I have read some of my ancestors' journals from that ear and their approach to courting is very different. It bordered on business like. There were different rules for behavior and propriety. To judge the character with modern mores is difficult being as they had different rule of what was acceptable.
People were expected to control themselves and to be proper. This is an era where women weren't supposed to show their ankle because it would excite men too much.
I am kind of getting the impression that I am angering you over my point of view. I'm not going to agree with you that he is boring and that she settled. I have enjoyed the discussion up to now. I seldom get to do this kind of thing in an intelligent way.
Being as you are a man, I do find it interesting that you feel that you can speak to a young woman's needs and desires.
One should keep in mind that this story was written over 100 years ago and by a man. Not too many authors can write about the opposite gender. Some authors just write what will sell as evidenced by the many silly women in so called romance novels.
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movieliker1
8 years ago
Don't worry, you are not making me angry. I appreciate anyone who can hold an adult discussion on mature topics. And it would be boring if everyone agreed all the time. So please, continue to be honest. I am not trying to change your mind. We are just sharing opinions.
My understanding of history is, romance was better over the last 500 years than it is today. People are too eager to bypass romance and jump into bed. Some of the more romantically and sexually exciting novels were written in the past. They were not as sexually explicit but imagination, suggestion and mystery made them more exciting.
Being a man, I find it behooves me to understand women and how they think. And, I have many friends and family members who are women --- we talk. Also, there is a multitude of information on the Internet and in books on what women want. If anyone wants to educate themselves, it just take effort. Last but not least, I have trial and error experience to draw upon. I know what works and what doesn't.
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CatUt
8 years ago
Good. I don't like to argue but I love to discuss. There are days that I long for the old ways but then I am tad too outspoken and strong willed to truly be happy with all the rules that they had.
Being a man, I find it behooves me to understand women and how they think. And, I have many friends and family members who are women --- we talk. Also, there is a multitude of information on the Internet and in books on what women want. If anyone wants to educate themselves, it just take effort. Last but not least, I have trial and error experience to draw upon. I know what works and what doesn't.
It's good to see that there are still those out there who try to understand.
But all in all it is a movie and people in movies always have better script writers then those of us in real life.
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movieliker1
8 years ago
REPLY #2 (SEE ABOVE FOR REPLY #1)
If you are older, maybe you don't have the same needs and desires young people have.
It could be economic also. Where I live, women are highly educated and financially independent. They may feel more liberty to be free. If you live somewhere where women are second class citizens, they may feel they need to be faithful for survival reasons.
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CatUt
8 years ago
I think I have many of the same needs and desires that I had when I was younger. I know that now that I'm past the age of getting pregnant, my sex drive is much higher. So I think I actually want it more then when I was younger. No fear of pregnancy. I think that since I'm older I understand my self a bit better so I understand my needs and desires. I don't think they have changed since I was younger, I just understand them better.
Where I live most people of either gender have college or post High School educations. I know several women who have master's degrees and doctorates. It is not uncommon for people in my area to work at a bachelor degree job with a master's degree. I think it has more to do with the culture of where I live. While it's not in the Bible Belt, there is a certain amount of religious belief that drives people to act the way they do. It's not to say that people don't act opposite of the way their professed religion dictates but there is a certain amount of belief that you don't just give up on a marriage because it's gotten hard. At least once or twice a year my church has a marriage and family relations class. It's good stuff. Our leaders also preach about marriage and working thorough your issues and problems. Family is important and marriage is precious. I am not naive to believe that all think this way. I'm sure that many stay in marriages that they shouldn't because of the fear of trying to survive on their own but I think you would get that anywhere.
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movieliker1
8 years ago
So, you have the same needs and desires you had when you were younger. But you have no need or desire for romance and sex? Because that is what Gabriel was offering --- nothing. Gabriel would have been a good brother or friend. But lover --- he was a great big zero.
You don't like courting, romantic dinners, flowers, little gifts for no reason other than your man is thinking about you? You don't like surprises, suggestive remarks and actions when done appropriately and respectfully? You don't like a man who finds you physically attractive and expresses romantic and sexual desire for you? Because Bathsheba got none of that from Gabriel.
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CatUt
8 years ago
How do you know that? Just because he wasn't groping her the first second he saw her? Wow. The lamb was a romantic gesture. All the times he was looking out for her and talking to her and being kind to her. Those were all romantic gestures. Romance isn't just sex. Romance is all the things you talked about but they weren't married so the rules of the day forbade that kind of behavior.
Watch the Colin Firth Pride and Prejudice. That's another romantic movie that follows similar rules.
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movieliker1
8 years ago
How do I know that? I saw the movie. He never did anything. I don't remember him looking at Bathsheba with a romantic or lustful gaze. As a matter of fact, he may have had Asperger's Syndrome, because I don't remember him even making eye contact with Bathsheba.
Because he wasn't groping her the first second he saw her? Wow.
Nobody said anything about groping. But I detected no physical desire from Gabriel towards Bathsheba. There was no romantic or sexual tension between the two of them. She took him for granted because he was a doormat.
The lamb was a romantic gesture. All the times he was looking out for her and talking to her and being kind to her.
Those are all things brothers, fathers and mothers do for their sisters and daughters. That is not romantic. That is just common decency.
There were no rules against being romantic. And women didn't have equal rights and men were often crude pigs. There were more problems back then with men going too far than men being overly prudish. Being a self-restricted coward afraid of expressing attraction has never been appealing to women.
Women want a man, a man with courage to go after what he wants. A man who communicates. Gabriel was the opposite of that. He never expressed desire or attraction towards Bathsheba after his simpleton proposal. He was not fun, interesting or exciting. He hung around for years while --- Bathsheba married the soldier, was courted by the rich guy and had her husband murdered by the rich guy --- waiting for life to come to him. Then he leaves like a baby because Bathsheba won't reciprocate his alleged feelings. She had to assume the male role and chase him down, profess her love for him and beg him to marry her --- which he never did !!! She was more of a man than he was. What a pathetic loser Gabriel was. When it came to romance, Gabriel was the non-man. He was no talk and no action.
Bathsheba was more of a man than Gabriel was. She went after what she wanted and usually succeeded. Gabriel waited for life to happen to him. She turned Gabriel down, ran her own successful farm and married the soldier. Then after the rich guy kills the soldier, she goes back for Gabriel who had been pathetically waiting for her. He sulks off like a baby running home with his ball because he is too much of a coward to pursue Bathsheba. So, she chases him down, tells him how she feels and begs him to marry her. He did nothing. She was the pursuer. He was the pursued. She made things happen. He waited for things to happen to him. He was not a man. He was pathetic. He was a non-romantic, non-sexual eunuch.
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CatUt
8 years ago
Well that kiss at the end was pretty passionate.
I've been around men's men or Alpha males. While they don't lack confidence (or at least they fake it well) they usually aren't the kind that take other people's feelings or failings into consideration. I work for one of these kind of people. I have to literally fight and argue my point on everything.
Then there's the problem of a man's man getting sick or having a chronic illness. Many times they feel less of a man because they can't full fill traditional roles. It's somewhat difficult to live with.
So I guess we're going to have to agree that we both see this movie from a different point of view and we just plain see it differently.
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movieliker1
8 years ago
I know you are smart enough CatUt to realize that there are more than just two men in the world --- weenies and tough guys. Life is mostly not black and white but shades of grey. There are men who are manly (go after what they want, have initiative, courage and decisiveness). And are also sensitive, considerate, respectful and appreciative.
Gabriel should have left that farm after his first proposal. And went to a different farm, town, city, country or even continent. He should have been living life, grabbing for all the gusto he could reach. Living an interesting and exciting life. Meeting new people and dating lots of women. Instead, he waits around for Bathsheba while she lives an interesting and exciting life. Parading men around him while he works like a slave.
I imagine Bathsheba and Gabriel getting married. And she still going on business trips (she was still the owner of the farm). She and her little female assistant traveling to other towns, cities and countries. She having affairs and boyfriends all over the world. While nimrod Gabriel stays home faithfully running the farm clueless to her adventures.
He will never find out because he is too much of a simple-minded dolt unable to hold two conflicting ideas in his head at one time. Or he will find out, have some dramatic personal crisis, eventually coming to a talk with Bathsheba. She will give him some patronizing speech about how those other men were just mistakes, or it was just physical, or some tripe. And Gabriel, after some self imposed torture, will buy her load of crap because he knows --- and always knew --- he was dependent on Bathsheba. She was always the star of the show and he was just a supporting character too afraid to live his own life. Opting instead to be a background figure in hers.
Them having kids and then grandchildren. Him eventually dying. She getting old and sick. The children, in-laws and grandchildren taking care of the grand old matriarch. And her eventually telling tales of her adventures to select younger progeny. That is the stuff novels and movies are made of.
She was always the star of the show. Gabriel was just a supporting character in this movie and in my projected imagined future for them. He could have been the star of his own story but, he was not a man. Only half a man relegated to be a side note in the story of Bathsheba.
She will never fully respect him. Only use him as a chess piece in the game room of her life. I guess some people are stars and some are just supporting characters. Most women want a star not a supporting character as a mate.
We don't have to agree on anything. You have the right to your opinion and I mine. But I think you are using romantic want to be's to see what you want to see when watching this movie. While I am seeing what was put on the screen.
If so, I am glad you enjoyed the movie. I didn't so much because I was watching it critically. I have seen better. And as a man, Gabriel was a pathetic example of what a man should be.
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CatUt
8 years ago
Not that I want to start an argument but one thing you said made me smile a bit. In my world view the world is mostly black and white. Whether you see this as a flaw or not is an opinion. I know that not everyone sees the world the way I do. But for me, there are more absolutes then for others. There aren't too many things that I see in shades of gray.
This world view of mine often makes it difficult for people to deal with me. They think they can change my mind but it seldom happens. People are often surprised at how my world view works. It is at the same time conservative and liberal. However I can accept that other people won't agree with me, but in my world they are wrong.
I will say that one flaw is always wanting the last word. I think that's what this is. 😄
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movieliker1
8 years ago
Well CatUt, if you see the world as black and white then that would mean Gabriel was either a tough guy or a weenie.
I say he was a weenie because he sat around for years waiting for Bathsheba while she lived the life of the tough guy --- being courted, dating and marrying men, trying different things, taking risks, living her life to the fullest. While Gabriel avoided risks, didn't live life to the fullest, didn't try different things, didn't have adventures, didn't see new things, etc.
You must agree then that Gabriel was the weenie. Because he certainly wasn't the tough guy. Which would mean you agree with me that he was a poor excuse for a man. Right?
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CatUt
8 years ago
I guess it depends on your definition. Nope I don't consider him a weenie.
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movieliker1
8 years ago
At the very least, you must consider him a supporting character. With Bathsheba being the star of the show. She does what she wants, lives life and takes chances. Whereas Gabriel waits around with no perceivable purpose or desire other than to take care of Bathsheba.
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CatUt
8 years ago
Of course. Everyone in the movie is a supporting character. It's really all about her.
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movieliker1
8 years ago
That is not what I meant and you know it. I mean in life. I am getting the impression you are a lot like Bathsheba. You want to be the star of the show --- making decisions, taking chances, doing interesting things. While your husband/boyfriend is a lot like Gabriel --- no interest in anything other than following and supporting you. Am I correct?
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CatUt
8 years ago
Not particularly. Mostly I like people to leave me alone to do my own thing. Sometimes that involves my kids or husband or extended family but sometimes it involves just me. I love working on my house because mostly no one wants to help so I get some therapeutic alone time.
I do like to be respected for my skills and what I bring to the table but mostly I shun the spot light. A thank you for what I do it more than enough. I don't like to dwell or be the center of attention.
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movieliker1
8 years ago
Were you always like that even when you were younger? Or have you changed as you have gotten older?
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CatUt
8 years ago
Always. Some of my best Summers were spent in the library searching the stacks for treasures (ie intresing books) alone.
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