Given the hi-tech computing & guns, I can't understand why no one went over the wall, or through the wall, or under the wall. Especially when one faction specialise in jumping, climbing etc. One faction is hungry for knowledge. Given what the trilogy is about, why didn't outsiders come into the city. The definition of people is rule breaking.
shareYou mean it's not logical that human beings would be perfectly content to live trapped behind a wall for 200 years and never even think to try to leave even though they had no reason not to?
>>>>>Happy dance!
Yea it's a bit strange but doesn't the dauntless faction guard the wall too? I'm surprised none of them tried leaving
shareNo it's really not
shareActually, if you read all three books, there is an explanation - and the way this movie departs from the second book makes me wonder about the next....
shareI have the read books, and the "explanation" offered in the third for an obstacle neither explains my point (why it didn't actually occur to this group of human beings to try to go anywhere like humans would) nor would really work as an actual obstacle. (See the later posts in this thread.)
Bottom line: For people to plausibly stay confined in an isolated environment and never leave it or try to leave it, it must be because they either have a legitimate reason to think they have to stay inside or something physically preventing them from leaving even if they wanted to. Neither a wall (which they're not even prohibited from crossing anyway) nor some random people standing around with syringes (which people don't actually even know about) qualify as the latter, and the story never offers an excuse that would reasonably satisfy the former. This aspect of the worldbuilding is simply not thought out.
>>>>>Happy dance!
This is somewhat explained in Allegiant. In the books, Amity IS outside the walls. Johanna explains that if anyone wanders too far out of bounds, that they inject them with just enough memory serum to make them forget about it. That doesn't make much more sense, but neither did most of the rest of Allegiant.
I guess the better explanation is that they think they're the only people left, that the rest of the world has been destroyed. The fence keeps them safe, they don't really have any reason to leave.
What you say makes sense. But people are people and, like divergents, there are always some that behave quite out of the ordinary.
I did read the 1st book in this series but wasn't motivated to read any more. So I don't know if the 2nd film stays true to the book. But just as archeologists and historians want to know our past, I would think that some in this artificial world would want to know theirs.
The thing with the Amity/memory serum thing is that it doesn't explain why none of these people, as a whole, ever actually thought to just leave. That safeguard only works to stop the occasional random person who just happened to wander too close to the edge, but what happens when a whole posse of people decided to explore outside? It doesn't seem like it ever actually occurred to anyone to go anywhere.
And, if they think the rest of the world is destroyed and they're the only ones left, then what do they think they're hiding from? Why do they think they need the fence to be safe? Safe from what? If they believe there's no one and nothing outside (and none of them apparently ever cared enough to go out and find out for themselves)), then they have no reason to have to stay inside.
And Amity being located outside the fence just never made any sense to me. If they think they need to stay inside the wall for their protection, why is one of the groups on the outside of that protection? And if the actual point is to keep everyone inside, again, why is the one group on the outside? Why do they even have a fence at all?
There's nothing logical or plausible about any of it.
>>>>>Happy dance!
Isn't that what the faction system is all about? Total conformity?
If everyone is taught from childhood that there is only danger outside the wall (and tested when they reach adulthood to make sure their minds conform to standard patterns) then it shouldn't be all that surprising that they don't feel any real motivation to go outside.
'none of these people, as a whole, ever actually thought to just leave'.
Is that in the books? There's no evidence in the movie that no one ever thinks about going outside - just that they don't actually do it.
What about the scene where the Dauntless initiates go to the wall and view the outside? It's obvious that individually they think about the outside, and privately wonder about what might really be out there. But as a group, they reinforce each other's conditioning to think of the outside as dangerous.
We don't get a close look at anyone except the main characters, but my assumption watching the movie was that it worked the same way for everyone else. And if the Dauntless weren't inclined to risk going outside, it's not surprising if no-one else does.
As for why Amity are outside the wall - hello - they grow all the food! You can't feed a whole city on the food that you could grow inside a walled circle that looks to be at most about 10 miles across. To do that, you need a faction who are not so much fearless as placid - they don't really worry about anything. At they same time, they don't feel any great curiosity about anything outside their farms.
Why not make the walled circle big enough to enclose the farms? Because then the people in the city wouldn't be able to see it. Which is my answer to your final question - why the wall? That's just basic psychology. If you want people to believe it's not safe outside the city, you need something to make them feel safe inside it. Every time people see the wall, it reinforces the idea that there is danger out there. As long as they are relatively free to do what they want inside (within the confines of their faction), then the city is their fortress and not their prison.
If everyone is taught from childhood that there is only danger outside the wall (and tested when they reach adulthood to make sure their minds conform to standard patterns) then it shouldn't be all that surprising that they don't feel any real motivation to go outside.
Is that in the books? There's no evidence in the movie that no one ever thinks about going outside - just that they don't actually do it.
What about the scene where the Dauntless initiates go to the wall and view the outside? It's obvious that individually they think about the outside, and privately wonder about what might really be out there. But as a group, they reinforce each other's conditioning to think of the outside as dangerous.
We don't get a close look at anyone except the main characters, but my assumption watching the movie was that it worked the same way for everyone else. And if the Dauntless weren't inclined to risk going outside, it's not surprising if no-one else does.
As for why Amity are outside the wall - hello - they grow all the food! You can't feed a whole city on the food that you could grow inside a walled circle that looks to be at most about 10 miles across. To do that, you need a faction who are not so much fearless as placid - they don't really worry about anything. At they same time, they don't feel any great curiosity about anything outside their farms.
Why not make the walled circle big enough to enclose the farms? Because then the people in the city wouldn't be able to see it. Which is my answer to your final question - why the wall? That's just basic psychology. If you want people to believe it's not safe outside the city, you need something to make them feel safe inside it. Every time people see the wall, it reinforces the idea that there is danger out there. As long as they are relatively free to do what they want inside (within the confines of their faction), then the city is their fortress and not their prison.
To Iswallace82
I agree with you. Basic curiousity is one reason that people in small boats set off to discover the rest of the world. And oceans are more of an unknown than a wall.
Exactly. We saw an ocean and built devices to float on top of it just because, just to see how far that wet blue stuff actually goes. We braved dangerous terrain and frigid climates to scale the mountains just to see what would happen if we made it to the other side. We put one foot in front of the other and kept walking past our homes, past the familiar land we knew just to see what other land awaited over the horizon.
Humans: We Like To Know Stuff.
>>>>>Happy dance!
There is a LOT left out of the movies, especially Insurgent... and it will have repercussions in Allegiant unless they fix it. Either way, there is a lot in the books that make these actions/reactions a lot more logical. Either read the books, or wait and see. No sense complaining.
shareI have read the books, and nothing in the books makes any of this more logical. The only thing the movies have changed, really, is making the fence a big giant wall topped with what appears to be electrified fencing. In the book, the fence is nothing more than a chain-link fence. That's about ten times less believable as something that would keep people inside.
>>>>>Happy dance!
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That defies basic human curiosity and the fundamentals of human behavior that have existed since the species has walked the earth.
Which is why this whole story would have been better explained by magic. But it's not that type of story, and we're not supposed to infer that the laws and/or norms of logic, physics and common sense don't apply just because it's "fiction." It's a fictional story set in the real world. If "real world/human being" logic doesn't apply to this story featuring human beings in a real world, there needs to be an acceptable reason why. Otherwise it's poor worldbuilding and lazy writing. Check, check.
>>>>>Happy dance!
To be fair... it probably helps that Amity self-medicate their people with happy drugs in the bread. The 'peace love and joy' thing isn't just a personality trait. It's a literal drug. lol
shareThe definition of people is rule breaking.
People are "rule-breakers" in the sense that it is normal human behavior to be curious and inquisitive and to test and tempt boundaries. Tell people "Don't go beyond the wall ... because we just don't, that's all," and they'll do it anyway just to see why exactly they were asked not to. It's not quite believable (read: not at all) that no one ever did that in 200 years. I mean, really, 200 years? Where were we in America 200 years ago? 32 states smaller, that's where. And there were a hell of a lot more "rules" in the way of growing beyond that besides one stupid wall.
>>>>>Happy dance!
I haven't read Allegiant, so please no spoilers.
That being said, I don't find it surprising at all. They believed that most of the world was destroyed and that any survivors out there were unfriendly. What sane person would try to jump the fence? If you did, you would probably be shot by Dauntless. They didn't want outsiders to know they existed. Even if you managed to avoid Dauntless and escape, then what? Live on your own for the rest of your life? That makes no sense. People had no idea where the nearest civilization was located and why would you seek it out if you thought those people were worse off than you and would also likely just kill you? It just makes no sense.
I could maybe see the argument that society would send a group out to explore, but again, their society was founded on certain principles and those in power took those principles seriously. They believed the way of the outsiders was the cause of the destruction of the world. Why would they want to be a part of that? The people in Chicago considered themselves "the lucky ones" and wanted to hide from outside threats.
Why would anyone try to leave if they thought they might get shot by guards? If there were unknown dangers or outsiders on the other side? If they had no idea what life might be waiting for them over there? If their way of life was based on staying within their own comfortable corner of the world?
I think human history and civilization have already proven that people will still go out and explore in spite of all these things.
If people would have let any of these kinds of things deter them from stepping out of their comfort zone and seeing what else is out there, the world would look quite different - and uninhabited - today, if people were ever so afraid that they never bothered to go anywhere, never broke rules or defied oppressive boundaries, never built boats to sail across the ocean just because they didn't know where the ocean led, never tried to climb over those mountains just because they didn't know what sort of people or civilization existed on the other side, never put one foot in front of the other and kept walking, kept going, kept looking, just because they didn't know where the road ends.
But they did. People wouldn't be stopped by any of those uncertainties and unknowns, and they wouldn't be stopped by any of the things you said, either. What sane person would risk being shot by guards, getting lost in the unknown land, facing unfriendly outsiders, leaving their comfortable home? No sane person, indeed. And what, exactly, about the explorations and discoveries by humans in the last thousand-plus years has been rooted in what was sane, rational, logical or safe? Please.
That's the thing about humans, and I think I've said this line once before: They're smart enough to ask the questions, and stupid enough to go find the answers. Danger, whether real or presumed or entirely imaginary, is not and has never been a deterrent to learning and exploring, to seeking answers, to satisfying that very basic fundamental of human behavior: curiosity. And that, my dear, is the chief reason why this part of the worldbuilding as explained does not work. It ignores the human curiosity factor and, therefore, common sense.
>>>>>Happy dance!
Given the hi-tech computing & guns, I can't understand why no one went over the wall, or through the wall, or under the wall. Especially when one faction specialise in jumping, climbing etc. One faction is hungry for knowledge.
Given what the trilogy is about, why didn't outsiders come into the city. The definition of people is rule breaking.
I've only read the first book and wasn't motivated to go on.
But I'm in Australia and 100 years ago, people went a hell of a lot further than 100 miles to get here. Not many people, perhaps, but enough to change the population. So I'm not saying that everyone would venture forth but it's human nature for a few to say, I want to find out for myself."
They had no reason to look outside the fence.
And later when asking about the world outside the fence, the Erudite boy tells her that it was just "places that never recovered from the war."
Throughout history, people - including intellectuals - have accepted "propaganda" that kept them within various boundaries.
* Though Pythagoras (The Pythagorean Theorem) scientifically proved that the world was round in 500 BC, it wasn't until Magellan's 16th century voyage around the world that people finally believed Pythagoras' claim - 2000 years later.
Before travel was economical, people in the US rarely traveled more than 100 miles away from their home. Even today, most of the people around you have never left their home country.
Given what the trilogy is about, why didn't outsiders come into the city. The definition of people is rule breaking.
That is explained in the last book.
You ARE a Divergent, and I think that's why Divergent is considered "dangerous" by that society. We are more likely to think freely: why? why? why? And according to the story, that kind of free thinking is dangerous, because usually the "why" makes people harder to control.
shareYeah even in the first movie you see teh farmers are outside the wal and with all that advanced tech they didnt even have a helicopter? Was a real plot conveniece for no one to venture pastthe farmers who werent even protected.
-only uneducated minds are not open to any ideas other than their own.
I think that's what every Divergent will do, if they're not killed first after the test
It's not a good movie critics, until you let others criticize your version on how it should be done
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The type of people who would go over the wall don't exist in this society. No artists, writers, other free-thinkers/nonconformists. Conformists are going to abide by society rules and not question. If the government says it's not safe to venture into the unknown, then they won't. Curiosity is human nature, but so is bending to societal norms for acceptance and to attain goals. The latter is probably outweighing the former.
The fear of the divergents is that they are not conformists so therefore a threat and needed to be killed.
The only people in this society who might not care enough to try to go outside or - here's the illogical kicker - even be curious about what's there are maybe the Amity, since they're too peaced out to really bother to worry about anything else, their vice is being inherently passive and unmotivated, and most of them are probably stoned half the time. The Abnegation might not try, to a slightly lesser degree, only because their being the government and in charge of making and enforcing the stupid and arbitrary laws might make them a bit more hesitant to be the ones breaking them.
But that doesn't apply to everyone else. The Dauntless are all about performing acts of bravery, not even out of altruistic need but just for the sake of doing something courageous slash outrageous. You mean none of them ever thought to be the one who went beyond the border just to do it? You think they would let the vague "we don't go outside just because" stop them? What about Erudite, they of the unquenchable thirst for knowledge? No one knows what's outside. You think they wouldn't be the first to try to find out, to satisfy that question - as they believe, every question needs to be answered - to attain that knowledge? And Candor? They would go for the same reasons Erudite would, except to satisfy truth. They would want to know the honest truth. At some point it would occur to someone that they couldn't blindly trust the vague warning the other factions have not to go outside, because the others aren't necessarily truthful as they are. The factionless have no reason to stay here at all. They've been ostracized from society and have no ties to the arbitrary rules governing the population. They're treated as pariahs, not permitted to have any meaningful jobs or participate in any societal rites. Their lives in this city suck. None of them ever thought to just eff this place and see if they can start a new life somewhere else, colonize some of that allegedly barren wasteland and make their own home, as people in their situation have done for thousands of years? And of course, the Divergents are self-explanatory.
Blindly following orders and conforming to popular rule is human nature as well, but it really can't outweigh the curiosity part. People will still wonder, and someone will question it. Not everyone is a blind, mindless conformist, but everyone has curiosity. It's just not believable that in 200 years there has seemingly never been anyone who questioned it enough to actually do something about it, for any of the reasons illustrated above or just because they can. Because you can't expect people to just blindly stay confined without any reason to believe they actually have to or something physically keeping them from leaving even if they wanted. Had either of these existed in the story I might buy it (I've read plenty of stories that involved just that and it was perfectly plausible), but they didn't. The people seem to have been told only that "we can't go outside because, um, it's bad" and nothing more, and it simply never occurred to anyone to think otherwise. That's not believable. Some people might be perfectly accepting of that and not care to think any more of it, but most wouldn't. It only takes one person - one - to get the ball rolling. One person to bring it up for the idea to spread like wildfire. And one person WOULD, because it's naturally what most people WOULD do. So the idea that not a single person in 200 years ever did/said/thought what the majority would have within the first 3 months, when there was no reason for them NOT to, is just not believable.
>>>>>Happy dance!