MovieChat Forums > Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox (2013) Discussion > How did Zoom do it? Story premise is wac...

How did Zoom do it? Story premise is wack.

posted 11 years ago by xvzz02
58 replies | jump to latest

It's implied through the film that Zoom was responsible for the new timeline.

But at the end, we see Flash going back to stop his earlier self from saving his mother, and thus resetting the timeline. So Barry did it, and Barry undid it.

So, how was Zoom involved at all? He's from the 25th Century, but in the new timeline, the world ended about now. How is Zoom in this timeline, and aware of the original one?

Unless he was sneaking along next behind Flash when he made the change. Which is impossible since the story hinges on the "Speedforce" not being strong enough to allow two Flashes to travel in time.

Or does Zoom have another way to travel in time?

Also the whole explanation of how one tiny change in history -- one woman survives a home invasion -- causes Armageddon is absurd. People travel in time constantly in the DC universe, they never have such drastic "butterfly" effects. They even acknowledge that many of the changes preceded Barry's mother's death, but just handwave it away.

While I liked Aquaman and Wonder Woman destroying the world in a lovers' tiff, the basic premise of the story is nonsense.

[–] pillsdude7 11 years ago

It wasn't that Barry saved his mother that affected the timeline it is that when he broke the time barrier it sent a sonic boom through time that altered it and changed history. Superman never landed in Kansas landed in Metropolis and was a lab rat for the government, Bruce was killed instead of his parents making one into a violent superhero and the other into a raving murdering psychopath, Hal Jordan never received the Green Lantern ring from Abin Sur and it changed how Aquaman and Wonder Woman reacted to the outside world. Like Steve Trevor never came to Themyscira and she never wanted to leave making her stay and become queen. So again it wasn't the act of saving his mother that changed history it was trying to do it that made it happen.

[–] xvzz02 11 years ago

Funny we've never seen this "sonic boom" effect in any other DC comics story involving time travel; and there are hundreds of them.

Anyway, if it was just the "boom", Flash travelling back to stop his earlier self should have doubled the effect, not cancelled it.

[–] Neoblackdragon 11 years ago

Well Flash did it via the speed force. Even then we usually see this sonic boom when the timeline is altered in small waves. In this case Barry's alteration screwed his friends over. But in others, some guy doesn't get coffee but instead gets a donut........or Hawkman gets like 20 origins.

Also you did see the result of the second boom. Flash's and Batman's suit at the end was a result of the boom. Ie the new 52 is the sonic boom from canceling out the first trip.

Also don't take it all literally. The sonic boom effect was a simple way to explain things.

[–] mooreo 11 years ago

Well said.

There Can Be Only One!

[–] babuandbabu 9 years ago

Flash's and Batman's suit at the end was a result of the boom.

That thing was bugging me for a while.

Vote For "The Purge" - http://www.imdb.com/poll/4Bk8teoxE44

[–] bdk_solo 8 years ago

I didn't know where to post this question. In the alternate time line Flash cannot time travel due to Reverse Flash being around and sharing the speed force. So then how does he travel in the first place (after the JL defeat and capture the Rogues) if RF was in that original time line?

[–] Schmendrick 7 years ago

They probably locked down the Reverse Flash to prevent him from tapping into the speed force, because if he did, I doubt anything could hold him.

[–] Sabre-El 11 years ago

Actually I have the same question as the OP. It was Zoom who was supposed to be responsible, but later we see (and it is implied through the dialogues) that Flash did it himself

Clark: 'Jonathan Kent; isn't it a little past ur bedtime?'

[–] pmm182 11 years ago

Just watch the movie again. And pay attention. If something confuses you, watch it over until it doesn't. You'll get more satisfaction that way than you'll ever get from The Board.

[–] manjinder-rai 10 years ago

My understanding was that Zoom was indirectly responsible in that - after the attack on the Flash musuem - he dares the Flash to go back in time and save his mother. Batman then makes a comment to the Flash about letting sociopaths get under your skin and then the very next thing he does is say that it is something that "he can run off" and subsequently wakes up in the new timeline.

What makes it confusing (at least to me) is that when the Flash wakes up he does not remember saving his mother. But later he seems to remember and we see him doing it (and stop himself from following through).

[–] babuandbabu 9 years ago

Flash does remember it but the memory was probably in dormant part of his brain.
It only popped when Thawne said what he did.

Vote For "The Purge" - http://www.imdb.com/poll/4Bk8teoxE44

[–] coolrvd 11 years ago

actually you see it sometimes in comics just not often. Something similar happened recently in Marvel's Age of Ultron event when Wolverine went back in time and tried to kill Hank Pym before he could create Ultron..the aftermath was that it screwed up the timeline and changed a lot of things. The point of these occurrences is to show that you shouldn't go back in time and change an event otherwise the future will change,whether for good or bad,because of such

[–] Hiragana_Kanji 11 years ago

But Hank Pym like him or not is important. He has saved the world. Flash's mom was just a single mother doing her best . While noble, not nearly as key as Pym. (when not beating his wife.)

Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong.

[–] matt_shade 11 years ago

Important? Dude, what if I went back in time and killed one of Adolf Hitler's parents before he was conceived? Or just prevented them from sex for a while so instead they conceive a baby girl? No Adolf Hitler. So who knows how or when WWII would have happened?

That's the butterfly effect. The homeless guy in the street changes the world by being that homeless guy rather than something else.

I call this the Helga Hitler argument.

It's not nihilism if there's a question mark at the end.

[–] babuandbabu 9 years ago

Mistake. That's the lesson. No matter how bad the time is or was, never try to change it otherwise it would cause dangerous after effects in future. Who knows what could have happened if you killed Hitler before he was born? Maybe some other evil forces would have conquered the Earth instead?

Vote For "The Purge" - http://www.imdb.com/poll/4Bk8teoxE44

[–] matt_shade 8 years ago

Exactly. No one is more "important" than the next person. We all affect events equally.

Helga Hitler affects the world just by not being Adolf Hitler. The homeless person on the street affects the world by not being someone else.

"Need" is just a fiction. As is "should", "must", "value" and "importance".

[–] rizzo_77 10 years ago

That's part of the story line here, actually. Zoom hammers home (in the comic book and the movie) that Flash screwed up the world for very selfish reasons. He didn't go back to stop Lincoln being assassinated or stop Hitler from rising to power. He went back "Cause he missed mommy" and he destroyed the world. I always took it to be a play on sometimes things happen for a reason. But that's just me.

[–] PeteyParker 11 years ago

That's because they needed an excuse to jump start the New 52 and it doesn't matter if it doesn't make any sense. It's a "Shut up and don't ask any questions" moment much like Nick Fury's illegitimate black son who now looks exactly like Samuel L. Jackson and goes by the name Nick Fury because Sam Jackson plays Nick Fury in the movies and nobody is buying the Ultimate comics.

[–] Oblivion14 11 years ago

WARNING: MASSIVE SPOILERS BELOW!

It's because of one simple thing: Zoom (Reverse-Flash) was the one who was supposed to kill Flash's mom.

And in a way. Zoom was actually the one responsible for the alternate world. Because it was Zoom (prior to all of the events in the movie, and in the "normal" timeline) who taunted Flash in a confrontation that he was the one who killed his mom which led to Flash going back in time to try to save her in the first place. And because of Flash's inexperience in using the "Speed Force", his attempt caused history to change significantly (unlike the more experienced Zoom, who always was a time traveller, and knew how to change most things in the past, like Flash's childhood, with only minor "ripples")

They were both time-traveling to the same point in time. Thus when the continuity changed, they were the only two people aware of the change and had memories of the previous world. And yes, Flash's second time traveling attempt to stop himself did cause new changes in the "normal" universe, which is hinted at by Flash's new costume.

None of these are in the film (they even specifically obscured the face of his mom's killer and took out the woman Flash met on his second time travel). But these are in the comics. Also in reality, the events (known as "Flashpoint") is actually the excuse for DC's newest attempt to reboot the DC universe in 2011 and bring together the constantly conflicting timelines and backstories of their superheroes once again. This is known as the "New 52" (after the number of new comic book titles they're launching).

The same way they did once in the "Crisis of Infinite Earths" which eliminated the "alternate realities" that different superheroes lived in (in reality, simply different versions of Earth's history crafted by different writers for specific heroes), and united them into a single timeline. Such that Batman's story, for example, will now coincide with that of the Flash, etc.

[–] rizzo_77 10 years ago

As with most cases, the book is better and explains more then the movie. Almost every one of the flashes travels time they use the cosmic treadmill to direct their actions (focus the jump, I guess you could say.) I know Barry Allen mentions time travel is tricky and dangerous without the treadmill in the Blackest Night story arc and might have even mentioned the difficulty in this one as well (haven't read it in a while.)
In the comic book, Barry going back in time is more a spur of the moment thing. He goes for a run to clear his head and just keeps picking up speed, then finally time jumps. It wasn't his initial intention to go back so he doesn't use the treadmill. Zoom time travels all the time because he doesn't care what he screws up. He's a bad guy.

[–] milocibelli 7 years ago

Barry going back to stop himself from saving his mother caused the New 52 universe. Although after DCU Rebirth, it was revealed that a being, implied to be Dr. Manhattan, was the one to take 10 years away and cause the New 52.

[–] WellHung 11 years ago

Maybe while travelling in time Thawne felt the ripple and decided to take a look, meddled in it and...obviously he was unaffected by any change because he existed outside of time. *snicker*

[–] pillsdude7 11 years ago

Meh I am not sure about that I always personally liked how Marvel did time travel that time is like a river and every disturbance just banks that time off the main river. What I mean is say someone went back and killed Hitler before he became fuhrer then that creates two timelines one where Hitler is killed and the normal one where he is fuhrer. So it doesn't cause an issue like this like this one storyline I read years ago called League of Losers. This guy from the future brings an army from the future and knowing all the weaknesses and secrets of the heroes kill almost all the heroes in a matter of hours. All that was left was a couple of c and d list heroes that were able to get his time machine and traveled to the time before he came to the present. They stopped him from coming back in time but they were stuck in the future because no matter what their timeline he did everything all ready but because they stopped him the timeline diverged that he was never there.

That is one thing I never liked that DC did also was they killed almost every other universe in the comic books. So almost everything occurred only in their universe. Marvel has thousands of universes and that leads to lots of possibilities. One of the best Marvel books for a long time was a book called Exiles about Marvel characters from different universes going around fixing disturbances in different universes. It was a really fun read to see all the different variations on the Marvel universe. I think DC did themselves a disservice by stunting themselves so much.

[–] dslspiderballer 11 years ago

All the marvel universes is what i dislike about marvel lol

[–] dorknut99 11 years ago

Like Bart Allen a.k.a. Impulse, Reverse isn't effected by time shifts.

[–] xglite015 11 years ago

Zoom wasn't responsible for the timeline, it was Barry's creation. It's the Butterfly effect, you do a small thing, but the effect can be enormous. In the DCU some heroes travel in time, but they never do anything selfish like saving loved ones from death because of the fear of creating changes, bad changes. This is why Batman doesn't time travel to save his parents even though he has the resources or friends to make it possible, he's smart enough to know the possibilities. Zoom didn't really do anything other than tampering with the speed force to make sure that Barry doesn't escape the chaotic timeline that he created by saving his mother earlier.

[–] dslspiderballer 11 years ago

How did zoom know that was a different timeline?

[–] Unvoiced-Apollo 11 years ago

It would have helped if it had been clearer that...

Zoom was the one that killed Flash's mom

If you're happy and you know it, go sit in the corner and think about your life.

[–] Progeny51 11 years ago

They changed that for the movie and removed all of the lead-up to Barry's choice, as well as all of Zoom not being able to kill Barry and everything else that came from that.

[–] cazmaj 11 years ago

Excellent point!

[–] kingstewy 11 years ago

I have to do it ... Like I have to do it on "EVERY" board... They purposely had the window decorations cover the killer's face. This is a hint to the comic readers that it was Prof. Zoom that did kill his Mom! Pay attention please!!!!

[–] Progeny51 11 years ago

They puposely covered his face to establish him as, and keep him as, a random killer. It was just some guy. This kept even Barry from being able to see his face.

Professor Zoom would not need to, and wouldn't, break a window to get in and then hide (and not in his costume).

The idea that hiding his face is a hint that it is Professor Zoom is ridiculous.

Also, having it be him while taking away everything else about her death cheapens it and makes no sense.

[–] sanddragon939 11 years ago

I think the comic explained Zoom's 'survival' a whole lot better. Basically, because he's a man from the future whose own personal timeline is totally f#cked up, he's a 'walking paradox' and is able to survive shifting timelines. Similar explanations have been used for other characters (notably, Power Girl).

As far as the butterfly effect goes...I actually have an explanation for how things changed so drastically. Basically, I think the major change is Kal-El. Somehow, the 'time boom' caused by Barry changing the past caused Kal-El's rocket to crash in Metropolis rather than Smallville. Because Kal-El never became the heroic Superman, the 'era of superheroes' didn't really begin on this world the way it did in the 'original' reality. As a result, Wonder Woman and Aquaman didn't become superheroes and instead focused on being monarchs. Thus, they had their affair, which ended up in Mera's death and the Amazon-Atlantean War. This major disruption to history also altered countless individual destinies...resulting in Hal Jordan not meeting Abin Sur and Barry Allen not getting struck by lightning. The fact that Bruce got shot instead of Thomas is another one of the inexplicable changes caused due to the shattering of the space-time continuum.

[–] darthsparhawk 11 years ago

I am unhappy that we didn't see the female Joker. She would have been chilling.

[–] BrotherZed 11 years ago

It was Zoom who made the snide comment that caused Barry Allen to go back in time. Is it possible that Zoom knew what Barry would do and the consequences and THAT is why he goaded Flash on that topic.

Also, I want to see a Thomas Wayne/Batman comic now. He was like what the Batman comics originally were before that saddled him with that "No Killing" business.

[–] drei85 11 years ago

Yeah, see, this is what I thought he meant. Zoom was implying he manipulated the Flash into doing this on his own. But he wanted to take some credit to mess with the Flash some more.

Maybe the Flash that Barry stopped from saving his mother was a Flash that Zoom even told that he, Eobard Thawn, killed Barry's mother. Obviously using time travel and super-speed. And that maybe it'd be okay for the Flash to undo it because it was a meta-event. We don't get show this, it probably isn't the case, but they didn't show the face of the killer either since if Thawn was manipulating the Flash, he could have been lying about being the killer anyway.

As this was happening, though, I wondered where Booster Gold and his kid's time sphere were. Weren't they supposed to be time cops in the old 52? What was with that, did they get distracted?

[–] bethnor1 11 years ago

of course it's whack. generally speaking, time travel stories are by their very nature, and have to be handled very delicately for that reason. take for instance what is considered "the best" of the star trek: TNG movies. why did the borg go back to that point in time? why not during WW2? the best you can do is sit back and enjoy the ride.