MovieChat Forums > Gasland Part II (2013) Discussion > Even the NY Times reports on this propag...

Even the NY Times reports on this propaganda


When you have a left wing paper like the NY Times reporting that the Tribecca film festival didn't allow farmers who had legally bought tickets to the film into the show, what does that say about the "honesty" of the filmmaker and their crew?

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/22/tribeca-film-festival-tur ns-away-protesters-who-had-tickets-to-gasland-sequel/

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I worked on a farm. If you have the time in the middle of April to watch movies, never mind driving to and waiting in lines at Tribeca, then mister, you ain't no GD'd farmer.

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So you cannot argue the facts of the message and instead are trying to attack the messenger. Do I have that about right?

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It's been pointed out specifically that these "farmers"
were landholders with a stake in "farming out" their
land for lucrative deals in non-food producing operations.

There's a difference between being a farmer, a person or
business operation that produces food on his land, and a
land baron using his land for non-food development.

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They have farms on their property. They have a right to do with their land as they see fit. You want to take away their property rights. That about do it?

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If activities on your property negatively affect a neighbor,
then yes, you should be curbed from that activity. Since
Big Oil's prime directive in the "Gasland" frackas is to quell
debate by spreading misinformation and dividing the opposition,
they'll stoop to any level to get you on their side. By using
property rights as a fulcrum, they can spin the debate to make
it seem they're as concerned as anyone that basic freedoms are
being abused. Let's get this straight: Corporations have been
playing that game for decades, look no farther than the New London,
CT eminent domain game perpetrated by the state to give developers
coveted land rights. Look into crimes perpetrated by developers
immediately following Katrina.

I side with Theodore Roosevelt on the issues of land use and strong
gov't. I'll go even farther: We've never had a coherent land use policy
in this country. There's no provision for the future and how land will
be utilized for food security. None. Allowing the free market to run
amok has not been the policy for a sustainable future.

So yes, I'm for constructive land management policy that describes
exactly where the best farmable land is for food, and how that relates
to property rights and corporate control of land for resource exploration.

If that seems extreme to you, then consider this: in some states,
golf courses are considered "open space". If that's not a liberal
extension to the designation, "open space", I don't know what is.

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So you're an out and out socialist that believes the government should own all property and dictate how it's "best used." Gotcha.

No wonder you agree with the false propaganda in Gasland part deux.

P.S. You're the one giving love to Big Oil. They're trying to stop fracking and development of natural gas to keep their monopoly on energy production. It's why this piece of propaganda was funded by Middle Eastern oil sheiks.

Thanks for playing.

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"So you're an out and out socialist that believes the government should own
all property and dictate how it's "best used." Gotcha."

I predicted you would go this route and you didn't disappoint. You're correct
that in the definition of socialism, in which the state owns the company, you
insinuate that I believe the state should own the land. That's not what I profess.
Here, the state does not own the land but instead has a roadmap to distinguish
what land is best for what use. Locally, this is what can be understood as a
"Master Plan" for development, in which the town decides where what goes where,
be it school, park, whatever. I have thought for years that the US has never had a
conceivable land use plan and that lack thereof has turned out private interests,
and by default, public interests, to do as they please with land owned or otherwise
occupied for whatever endeavor. The problem with this, as we've witnessed, is the
hodgepodge of illogical, wasteful use of one of our most precious and limited
resources, land. We can forgive our forebears of the errors of their actions, as at
the time of the first 200 years of settlement, land was in such amounts that one could
barely see the time in which one feared the decimation of such an expanse. Perhaps
I suffer from an eastern affliction that our own situation must reflect the fortunes of the
rest, and of course that's patently untrue. But as the concurrent histories of either coast
bare, we have squandered our land in the name of personal freedom. This notion of
personal freedom now clearly stands in the way of the happiness of the multitude.

As we witness a rebirth in agrarian culture and the inevitable nature of water competition,
we are caught between the promise of textbook capitalism and the limitations inherent of
that economic model. Population pressures exacerbate these connected issues and the
inefficiencies of unrestrained, or rather poorly regulated, commerce have made our options
paltry. We need leadership in this arena, and frankly with the conservative zeal at present
we are missing an opportunity to table fixes to this problem.

The fix, then, is to set aside the best lands for agrarian use and to tackle the festering
inefficiencies of unfettered capitalism, net, speculative development, that result in the
unused brownscaping we understand as blight. Since there's no material market function
to adequately deal with this problem, the result has been for market forces to continually
seek new land farther out from the market in which it serves. Despite the trend of throngs
of employment age seeking work back in areas of higher density, land is still being developed
at a pace that ensures complete domination in little more than a few generations' time. This is
not fancy or hysteria, it is fact. We've already seen the fruits of progressive thought establishing
better living situations for those in higher density areas in the form of reworking pedestrian and
service business footprints. While a step in the right direction, these measures still don't address
the inevitable wars by proxy that will erupt between parties over land and water use in the extended
reaches of land-rich counties, and in fact may be pressing the problem further by passively allowing
the continued settlement of areas already stretched beyond natural capacity that can no longer be
extended by man's science and legal middling.

This observation is different from the mission of the Park Service, which was established to set aside
lands for, theoretical as it turns out, perpetual conservation. We have seen how water competition has
subverted Park plans out west and lack of leadership of any measurable kind in the great desert of the
southwest will undoubtedly result in mass misery.

So really, I don't see your countering my argument by calling me a socialist adds to this discussion,
as it exists plainly for the purpose of hyperbole, a logical non sequitur. In my world, capitalism is a
model of economic activity that in theory raises the lower classes but not an unquestioned writ either.
I am here reminded of my suspicions that many persons have a very narrow view of what capitalism
is and should not be and confuse the machinations of commerce with bad legal roadmaps. Currently
we live in a state by which such roadmaps have created a damaging plutocracy which votes with its
wallet rather than with the convictions that promote the common good.

Unfettered capitalism is no substitute for thoughtful leadership.

"PS: You're the one giving love to Big Oil. They're trying to stop fracking and development of natural
gas to keep their monopoly on energy production. It's why this piece of propaganda was funded by
Middle Eastern oil sheiks."


If you mean that "Gasland" ( 2010 ) had two pro-Chavez production assistants on staff, one an EPA
official whose input was probably minimal, you'd be correct, but to jump to the conclusion that Fox
was abetting an enemy is hyperbole. By extension one could surmise this as a form of guerrilla film
making of a subversive sort more opaque than all of the shenanigans Big Oil has perpetrated over
the years unbecoming of a source as unbiased and equal as "Energy in Depth".

If you mean that pieces such as "Gasland" 1+2 serve to counter the auspices of "Truthland" and
"Fracknation", then yeah, Fox deserves the opportunity to defend his arguments and stop this
steamrolling venture known as hydraulic fracking until it is better understood. I'm not going to
take whatever Big Oil says without thoughtful, critical and honest analysis, because they have
lied to us before, and no amount of flag waving is going to pollute the point of this debate,
which is to prove that fracking is safe or stop it in its tracks, economy be damned.

The hinge is geology, and we have consensus among industry geologists versus the opinions
of outside geologists, and this fact is what will expose the truth. How we get there is anyone's
guess, but I cringe at the idea that any geologist knows outright what is going on in rock as deep
as these wells go. Here's a literal case where going down with rose colored glasses is as good
as going down blind. As George W Bush correctly said, out of context, "we have to be right every
time," because the issues that cloud the waters of gas production must be understood and not
given in to emotion and exhaustion. If the parties are wrong, and unfettered drilling holds sway
as it largely has, politics will become very local.

So, we know two things: the geology in support of fracking is contested. That must be resolved
by science alone. We know that the industry has deliberately affected laws that favor its position
and has committed shortcuts to processes that have undermined safety, to put it diplomatically.
If you'd care to see how effective a small gov't is, go live on the coast of Louisiana for a year.

Hiring attack PR firms does not bolster the industry's argument, such actions are spurious
and cynical, and grassroots activism such as Fox's can not supplace sound public policy.
Once we get the science clear, we must have the appropriate policing of the industry to
prevent the sort of deliberate management that resulted in the Gulf Oil explosion and
spill and the very compromised clean up that followed. That's not creating "Big Guv't"
for the sake of it, that's being smart.

We have too many messes to let this one go. As always, the messes usually start at the sources:
industry and lazy-so-fair gov't. The problems of gov't are for another debate.

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The route was obvious because what you are demanding is the definition of socialism. Perhaps wherever you are from that's acceptable, but I'd rather not have the USA collapse into that mire.

As for Big Oil, can you not read. Gasland 2 was funded directly by Middle East oil sheikhs. I said that. I didn't mention Venezuela or Gasland part one though that doesn't surprise me either.

Stop being a Luddite and embrace new technology. Fracking is the future.

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I'll give you credit: You read my response, so that's good.

You can call my suggestion, not demand, socialism or whatever
you wish. But it's not socialism outright. I don't call the Park Service
an exercise in socialism either. I don't call for the state to "own" land,
only manage it, much the way corporations do, but not for profit. Do you
call eminent domain defacto socialism? Are our fire and police dep'ts a
socialistic system? There are elements of socialism with none of the
trappings of socialism itself. The term socialism has been twisted out
of shape so often since 9/11 it's unrecognizable, much less understood.
I don't compartmentalize terms to color the conversation because that's
phony. I don't understand what you people fear. What I do fear is a
corporate takeover of our fundamental rights. So I'd be careful in your
choice of horse. You can think as you wish, I'm interested in what works
or that has promise. The division of lands for purpose is not socialism,
it is socialistic, it's a purposeful system that may preserve our capacity
to remain self-sufficient.

As far as the Arab funding claim:

Yes, I read what you typed. What I investigated in your claim that came
back positive is that two persons had Chavez sympathies. Their lineage
probably is incontestable, their politics, possibly.

I'm not "embracing new technology" because some unknown mass
says so or because it's inevitable. Besides, there are inherent risks
with "new technology", which doesn't describe fracking, it's been
around for decades, rather it is horizontal fracking which is new.
Nothing is inevitable unless one is an armchair delegate, which
Mr Fox definitely is not, so I applaud anyone who sticks his neck
out for a worthy cause.

The cause is discovery. The only honest way to decide this debate
is unbiased study, just as the FDA studies a drug before it goes to
market. Yes, that's another issue, but for simplicity, I'll leave it at
that. So a study will give the industry a chance to verify its claims,
and Mr Fox can take the credit for being one of many, but a significant
one, to grease that debate. Science must discover once and for all
whether or not fracking is safe or can be made safe. I have my sincere
doubts given the historical record. Let the science bear witness to the
facts rather than have a few oily men thrust their demands down our
throats. The American people should not cave to coercion and thuggery.

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Here, the state does not own the land but instead has a roadmap to distinguish
what land is best for what use.


The term for this is "National Socialism". Note that it still contains the word "socialism".

I'll let you investigate the other historical implications of what you are openly advocating in favor of.


ANNK. You lose, insert coin.

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