MovieChat Forums > Phoenix (2014) Discussion > MAJOR Plot Conceit that kept this film f...

MAJOR Plot Conceit that kept this film from being one of the great ones.


NOTE that the following is just my opinion.
People are welcomed to disagree with it.
Please don't flame on me.
Thank you.

For me, a HUUUUGE plot conceit in this otherwise lovely and immensely moving movie, is that Nelly is unrecognisable to Johnny, yet she is so clearly recognisable to we, the viewers.

Now, I read somewhere in an interview, and I'll be damned if I can find it again because I'd love to link you guys to it, that Ronald Zehrfeld kept insisting to his director that HE HAD TO recognise his own long, lost wife Nelly but that Mr. Director kept saying "No!!". Acting the fool, then, was a bit hard for the fellow.


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I think Johnny recognised Nelly at some level but he dismissed his sense that she could be his wife because what were the chances of Nelly returning and not revealing herself as Nelly? The chances were zilch. So whatever glimmers he had along the way were easy for him to dismiss, which fits with his guilt. In the final scene the dawning of truth upon Johnny suggests to me he can no longer dismiss the obvious and he is confronted with his betrayal. I think that keeping the ambiguous tension between Johnny and Nelly until the end was powerful and on a thematic level says something about the German people and their national reckoning post-war. I don't consider the director's decision a conceit. I prefer films that play with ambiguity and force me to imagine and process what I'm seeing.

A bird sings and the mountain's silence deepens.

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Poppy, Admirable viewpoint. Thank you for your reply. By the way, before I go any further, I'd like to commend your choice of User / Screen name. Really arresting!

OK, I think Johnny didn't WANT to recognise Nelly (the more I ponder this plot conceit that is ... in retrospect) because he didn't want to come to grips with the fact that she survived not only his cruel betrayal of her Judaism to the Gestapo, but also that he couldn't deal with his own great guilt over having "ratted" her out!

Better to keep telling yourself that the wife you cruelly betrayed is DEAD, than to live with what must have been God-awful Survivor's Guilt.

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Why thank you DogtownGirl :)

I agree with what you have written. He didn't want to recognise her and he did not want to confront his guilt, which would be huge.

You are generating much interesting discussion about this remarkable film with your threads. They make me reflect more upon the film and I would like to see it again.

A bird sings and the mountain's silence deepens.

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Why, thank you, Poppy!

Nice of you to praise my OP (original post).

I wish you could see this film again. I will get just that opportunity when the film comes BACK to Seattle Washington this Friday for a run at one of the SIFF cinemas.

Ask me how much I can't wait to see it, again ... Go ahead and ask! 



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Speaking of films WE want to re-visit, here is one I'd KILL to see again, but, it must have English subtitles, and, its DVD must be playable in my region!!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3092552/combined

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Well,
it's interesting to hear Mr. Zehrfeld's opinion. Maybe he would've preferred for his character to understand earlier on, so that he might have had a confrontation with Nelly and given a greater insight about the character. I can see his point of view as an actor. But I have to side with Petzold on this: the movie is a metaphor of the national sense of guilt in post-war Germany and Johnny's stubborn refusal of the truth perfectly exemplifies the behaviour of the Germans it wants to condemn. Had Johnny confronted Nelly, what would have happened? Had he said he was sorry and asked for her forgiveness, I don't think the movie would have worked nearly as well: Lene explains well how the typical national mindset is to move on and simply have Jews forgive what was done to them (something she can't accept).

I don't see how Nelly should immediately be recognizable to the audience. I mean, from where, exactly? Nina Hoss' previous movies? Petzold is very cunning never to show Nelly's face before the surgery (if you except one photo where it's mostly covered by hair). The way the movie proceeds, we never get to find out how similar/dissimilar she may be and if recognizing her or not is due to an effective change or a state of mind. Johnny doesn't see her as Nelly because he doesn't want to. But the people he wants her to meet might just see her as Nelly, because that's what they want to. Suggestion is the key.

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Maybe he would've preferred for his character to understand earlier on, so that he might have had a confrontation with Nelly and given a greater insight about the character.
And make his character more sympathetic, perhaps -?
A bird sings and the mountain's silence deepens.

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Perhaps.

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the movie is a metaphor of the national sense of guilt in post-war Germany and Johnny's stubborn refusal of the truth perfectly exemply the behaviour of the Germans it wants to condemn.


Well said. That is what I took away from it as well. He can see her right in front of her, but similar to Germany after WWII, he does not want to acknowledge it.



I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.

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I agree with MrEdnablackadder. She didn't recognize herself - the doctor told her it would be difficult to reconstruct her as she was before, and we don't see what she looked like. I think she reminded him of Nelly (plus the subtle hints along the way that he suppressed) and he thought she could pull it off.

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Poppy: Superb post!

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I thought so too ... :)

A bird sings and the mountain's silence deepens.

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For me when Lene says in her letter, 'I feel more drawn to our dead than our living,' this applies to Johnny too. He has this romantic, idealised view of his wife that is wrapped up with his guilt in betraying her that he just cannot or will not accept that it is her.

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Ah that's really what bothers me too. Nice to know he was directed to not recognize her. Well he was a bit of a fool, and perhaps guilt ridden and in denial. But nobody else had a problem recognizing her, except she was pretty shocked when she first saw herself.

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Yes ... well ...
None other than the actor who so exquisitely played the role of Johannes, stated in an interview (translated into English, of course for we whose knowledge of German is rather piecemeal) that he was GOBSMACKED at the fact that Mr. Director did NOT want him to recognise his ex-wife when, to him and apparently the rest of the Universe, it was so obvious that the woman was She!!

Also, please note that patients who don't get what they want after
"plastic" surgeries frequently are agog at how they look, and that has nothing to do with not recognising themselves. It DOES have everything to do with just being shocked that they look different that they thought they would look.


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hmmm... the way she looked after she dyed her hair and applied makeup seemed so different than how we see her in the beginning. Maybe its just me, but I almost wanted to make sure that it was the same actress playing the role. So, I could buy that for someone who already believes that their wife is gone, that a woman that sort of looks like her, is not actually her.


Lord Arthur Goring: To love oneself is the beginning of a lifelong romance.

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Mmmm, OK. I got that. I understand. See, to my mind there was no mystery. But, if other people said there was, then ... who am I to quibble?
To each their own perceptions, opinions, etc.


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If someone is suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, that person may be unrecognizable.

Not to mention that Nelly may be a lot thinner than before, although the movie shows her to be close to her pre-war weight. I highly doubt she and Lene regain enough pre-war weight in post-war Germany with limited supplies. Lene looks to be very healthy and strong.

When Johnny asks "Esther" to walk normally, Nelly is unable to do. Her walk is that of a shell-shocked woman. Her reactions and movements show someone who hasn't completely recovered physically. It would be understandable her body, mind, and spirit are in total shock. She hasn't regained her vitality. Her old mannerisms, body language, and even voice may have changed.

There are definitely some questionable loopholes.

For example, how can "Esther" know Johnny is called Johnny? You would think that would make Johnny face the truth...

I'm sure Johnny is traumatized too from all the crap, but is his mind that deluded he can't believe that Nelly may be alive and may be looking for him? We don't know. Most opinions I've read so far state that his guilt makes him live in denial. He lies to himself that she's not Nelly.

The premise of his movie does require some suspension of disbelief, but I think this is still a brilliant film.

With all these physical changes, her voice can change as does her body language.

Denial is a powerful thing. Even faced with facts, people can continue to lie to themselves than to face the truth, because the truth is simply too painful.

transcendcinema.blogspot.com

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I agree with your post, insofar as the film is well-made, lovingly-crafted and the acting is non-pareil from two leads whose combustibility is truly unique.

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NOTE that the following is just my opinion. People are welcomed to disagree with it.

No, I agree and think you're absolutely right. Especially with her family (or, sorry, were they merely close friends?) accepting her on sight in the last section of the film.

How could he not recognize her eyes, the way she smelled, the way she embraced him and kissed his neck and lips etc? It's a tad ridiculous.

Had the film shown some kind of hint as to him wrestling with or choosing denial, perhaps that would have been interesting. But as the film stands, it's a good idea that is beautifully filmed, but not really a solid gold plot....kind of more like 2/3 of one (and that's being generous.)

I do like the film, though....for what it is. I'll have to look up the original version and see how they dealt with this element.






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See, and that's the thing about Petzold's films. They ARE eminently likable despite their plot LOOP-HOLES!

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Had the film shown some kind of hint as to him wrestling with or choosing denial, perhaps that would have been interesting.


I think the crucial hint is that she calls him Johnny, and he doesn't question it. The director goes to great lengths to establish that no one at the nightclub knows his real name, and yet here comes this woman who strongly resembles his wife and calls him by his real name. As the audience we're metaphorically screaming at the screen, "Why don't you show any surprise that she knows your name?! This is crazy."

But the director knows exactly what he's doing. What initially seems like a plot hole is in fact a great conceit by which to express the German inability to truly acknowledge the truth of the final solution. Johnny's is a willful refusal to face up to what is quite literally right in front of his face.

Recall how he coaches Nelly in the way they will reunite on the train platform:

"We'll walk up to each other.
Very tentatively.
We won't speak...
kiss or fall upon each other.
We will simply hug.
You'll lay your head on my shoulder
and we'll both shut our eyes.
We'll do nothing else.
Nothing. For ages."

He has dreamed of this impossible moment, and later, when they act it out for real at the train station, he is clearly deeply moved.

The son of a bitch wants nothing less than to have his cake and eat it. To sell his wife down the river to save his own skin, and yet still get to act out a cathartic reunion. He's trying to obliterate his own guilt. By revealing herself as Nelly during the song, she denies him that self-delusion, withholding it both from him and to a lesser extent, from the others. It's a great moment.

There are so many images and lines of dialogue in the film that take on greater meaning only when the movie has worked to it's final conclusion. That's why we're all here talking about it afterward! Great movie.

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I think the crucial hint is that she calls him Johnny, and he doesn't question it. The director goes to great lengths to establish that no one at the nightclub knows his real name, and yet here comes this woman who strongly resembles his wife and calls him by his real name. As the audience we're metaphorically screaming at the screen, "Why don't you show any surprise that she knows your name?! This is crazy."


Did you actually see the film? His "real name" was Johannes. That would be what? Oh, yes, John in English. So, where's the problem?

This is the same lack of understanding as the OP of this thread, who wrote:

"For me, a HUUUUGE plot conceit in this otherwise lovely and immensely moving movie, is that Nelly is unrecognisable to Johnny, yet she is so clearly recognisable to we, the viewers."

Of course, we the viewers, never did actually see the "original" Nelly, so we have no standard to judge Johnny/Johannes by. In fact, for those few who have actually seen the film and not just the trailer, when the two meet, one of the first things he says to Nelly is "you look a lot like my former wife" (or something similar).

This film, though clearly not terribly popular among IMDB users, is actually rated as the 12th best film of the year according to American film critics. All of whom, I would guess have actually seen the entire film.

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