The full EXTENT of Johnny's betrayal of his wife, Nelly .... - Phoenix (2014) Discussion

[–] Jep_Gambardella 9 years ago

At the time he surrendered her to the police he might not have known what was waiting for her, but when the movie takes place he seemed to be fully aware of the horrors of the concentration camps.

As for the second question, a)she wasn't wealthy. He says so at one point. She only inherited a large amount of money because all her relatives were dead, and b)she obviously had not been a practicing or an orthodox Jew. She considered herself as German as any of her friends.

Don't give me songs
Give me something to sing about

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[–] DogtownGirl 9 years ago

Replies appreciated. Thank you!

MOUSE HOVER to read that which is under the "Spoiler Shield".

It's interesting that people are remarking upon the moment in the film when the audience / viewer sees Nelly's concentration camp number as being the time when Johnny KNEW the woman singing was his wife, however ... the very actress who played Nelly herself, said in this very interview ( HERE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdiUmxCD4_I ) that it was Nelly's singing voice that convinced Johnny (because they had a cabaret act together before the War) it was she / the real deal / his ex-wife!

The showing of the camp tattoo was more for the AUDIENCE than it was for Johnny's benefit, because the audience / the viewer needed to see that Nelly was actually in the camp, which gave credence to her altered appearance and made what had happened to her much more believable!

** There MUST be more than one way to skin this Cat! **

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[–] tysenhound 9 years ago

Yeah... I don't know why people put so much importance on the number. Just because someone has similar voice does not mean he or she has the exact same singing voice. And that song was obviously something that they have performed before (when they were married). How could a impersonator portray the exact same singing voice and emotions while performing when she wasn't trained by him?

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[–] MrEdnablackadder 9 years ago

Nina makes the final scene work so well thanks to her remarkable singing. I love how she starts singing in a thin voice, but then, just like she's gradually recovered her confidence during the film, she eventually becomes able to give a wonderfully moving performance. The phoenix is finally reborn.

Said that, I don't see how showing the number could have been done to the audience's benefit. We see from scene one that she returned from the camps; it's clearly said that she was shot in the face there. I wonder how could that be ever ambiguous. It's a combination of both things that helps Johhny see the truth, but the number is certainly proof enough that the mysterious 'Esther' is actually Nelly (unless she was another camp survivor who, for some reason, had lied to him about it-- not likely).

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[–] PoppyTransfusion 9 years ago

I love how she starts singing in a thin voice, but then, just like she's gradually recovered her confidence during the film, she eventually becomes able to give a wonderfully moving performance. The phoenix is finally reborn.

Nice comment. I've never thought about the film's title before even though it's an obvious thing. The whole film is about Nelly rising from the ashes of near physical death but also a cultural death and, in that final moment when she is wearing a red dress, she rises from the flames.

I think Johnny knew as her singing grew stronger that this was Nelly. He might have had suspicions before but this was confirmation. Seeing her concentration camp number was a signal of his guilt consuming him. He may have been in denial about what fate awaited Nelly after he betrayed her and even as the war ended and the horrors emerged he might have thought she died quickly. In front of him was confirmation that she survived the horrors that he helped inflict upon her. It's one of the best final scenes in a film. The song speaks, the characters don't need to and she leaves after the song ends.

A bird sings and the mountain's silence deepens.

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[–] MrEdnablackadder 9 years ago

Nice comment. I've never thought about the film's title before even though it's an obvious thing.

The original novel is called 'Return from the Ashes' (haven't read it and don't have any intention to, since I seem to understand it's much closer to the horrid 1965 version). But I like how Petzold made the title ambivalent, since 'Phoenix' is also the name of the club where Johnny went to work.

I think Johnny knew as her singing grew stronger that this was Nelly. He might have had suspicions

Yes, I think Johnny suspected it all along. I mean, in some scenes there is this wonderful interplay between the two actors, where they exchange these subtle, but eloquent looks. Like in the scene when 'Esther' is perfectly able to replicate Nelly's writing, hands the piece of paper to Johnny and looks at him as to say: "you understand now?" He looks obviously uncomfortable, but eventually prefers to remain in the state of denial he's forced upon himself and accepts the supposed forgery as real. I think these subliminal suspicions may also be the reason he seems so confident that his plan may work, with everyone, from the friends to the landlady, recognizing this mysterious woman as Nelly.

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[–] tysenhound 9 years ago

Oh I'm not saying the number didn't have any importance. It's just that her singing comes first, and the number is more a secondary thing that confirms it (and something that makes it more clear to audience). It was stated pretty obviously that Johnny saw that number.

Nina makes the final scene work so well thanks to her remarkable singing. I love how she starts singing in a thin voice, but then, just like she's gradually recovered her confidence during the film, she eventually becomes able to give a wonderfully moving performance. The phoenix is finally reborn.

Yes, it was beautiful. I found it like some kind of declaration - Nelly's declaration that she will no longer hold on to the past which only lies and denials exist. What a perfect way to convey her emotions to that traitor.

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[–] MrEdnablackadder 9 years ago

Oh I'm not saying the number didn't have any importance. It's just that her singing comes first, and the number is more a secondary thing that confirms it (and something that makes it more clear to audience). It was stated pretty obviously that Johnny saw that number.

You're right. Like you and Poppy said, he obviously becomes more aware of the thing as the song progresses, something that can be seen in his eyes. And the music stops right when he sees the numbers: he can't go on with this charade any longer; the sight of that final piece of evidence is too strong for him to keep escaping the truth.

Yes, it was beautiful. I found it like some kind of declaration - Nelly's declaration that she will no longer hold on to the past which only lies and denials exist. What a perfect way to convey her emotions to that traitor.

The choice of the song was also perfect. The words fit the situation perfectly.

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[–] blanche-2 8 years ago

Hmmm, I'm not sure I agree with the second part but it was definitely her voice that convinced him. I think the audience knew where she'd been. I think he saw the tattoo and thought, gee, damn, I should have noticed that.

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[–] DogtownGirl 8 years ago

The moment Johannes saw the inked up forearm was when WE, the viewers, did too.

I mean, yikes ... Talk about a GOTCHA!!!!  moment ....

** There MUST be more than one way to skin this Cat! **

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[–] pjpoconnell 9 years ago

Certo: In fact, doesn't she at one point say that she isn't Jewish?

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[–] johnywh 9 years ago

the songs makes him realize that she is actually his wife, the number makes him to realize what he has done to her

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[–] DogtownGirl 9 years ago

VERY succinctly put!
And wasn't Zehrfeld's look of recognition truly a sl-oooooooooo-w burn?
Oof .... 

** There MUST be more than one way to skin this Cat! **

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[–] chuck-526 9 years ago

Before the "betrayal", Johnny had devoted quite a bit to Nelly. He had slowly been forced to shop at different places, then stop talking to one neighbor after another, then not be able to work, then move to the only place he could find (where he couldn't even tell the landlord of Nelly's existence), helping Nelly to hide even knowing that doing so put himself at grave risk too. We saw all these things in the movie itself (although the marketing campaign, by saying something different, may have blinded us to them:-). Probable interpretation? he eventually broke under the strain.

Even afterward, he didn't really recover. Even though he worked in a place with a lot of music, he couldn't actually use his musical skills. His "job" was cleaning up whatever anybody else ordered him to, the sort of job that would normally be given to a teenage boy rather than a grown man. For a place to live all he could get was a tiny, awkward, basement "apartment".

EDIT: Nelly had no significant inheritance initially. She was "rich" only after the war, because all her relations were dead and she inherited all the bits from the whole family. At one point early on amazed by all the surgery she asked "who's paying for this?". It was explained to her that she was now rich ...and it was a surprise to her.

In other words "no", I don't think he planned on a betrayal right from the start. He put up with an awful lot before he finally broke, his interest in money was a recent thing,and at the time of his marriage Nelly wasn't rich.

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[–] DogtownGirl 9 years ago

Interested opinions and take on the role of Johnny, reliably expertly played by Herr Zehrfeld. I liked reading your post / reply. Actually, reading what you wrote, especially the first paragraph, made me wonder if .... perhaps, I'd missed reading the book about this film that came out accompanying the movie?
I'd love to read such a thing, if there is one, in English or French.

OK, but about Johnny: The second paragraph about the frustrations of working in a place devoted to presenting musical acts to the public, must have irked Johannes to no end. Being in such a place, yet NOT being able to use his talent, for reasons I never really entirely understood, but, maaaaaybe the director didn't feel as though understanding of every little detail was all that important, must have endlessly rankled! Always seeing the carrot dangling in front of you, within being able to grasp and eat it.

About how he betrayed Nelly ... Well, he sent her to the camps, without a care in the world. Better to expose her than seal his own fate, I reckon. And, in wanting to remake a woman, who he thought to look so similar to his ill-fated wife, over to look and act like her to as to SEIZE Nelly's fortune and assets, indicated that he'd always planned to undermine if NOT her then her memory, and family, inheritance, etc.

** There MUST be more than one way to skin this Cat! **

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[–] NeverEclipsed 8 years ago

Well, I either think Johnny is a good guy, and his crappy behavior was because of all the guilt he felt.. OR he's just an a*shole. He did say early in the movie that his wife was poor alive but rich dead, perhaps he knew there was something to inherit. I wish this film didn't leave me guessing so much, artistically I get it because there is no happy ending after a concentration camp. 

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[–] DogtownGirl 8 years ago

Well, even Nina Hoss (Nelly) stated that her husband, in at least one interview she gave, was an "a$$hole". Yep, her exact word. Johannes told the Nazis what they wanted to know, in order so that his wife would be sent off to the camps and ... (hopefully, in Johannes' mind, anyway) EXTERMINATED! Johnny wanted his wife's loot, simple as that. Dead, he could get the lot of it, from her Estate. Of course, what he hadn't counted on was that he'd run smack dab into her, then con her into going along with his game, only to have her sooooooo cleverly turn the tables on him! What has me guessing is what miiight have happened AFTER she sung that Kurt Weill tune, "Speak Low". I mean, we saw her walk away in the blurred background of the frame, but ... what did she do after that, I wonder?

** There MUST be more than one way to skin this Cat! **

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[–] NeverEclipsed 8 years ago

Intersting.. What bothers me is how he didn't know way sooner. I know it's not too huge of a plot hole to say she's unrecognizable after plastic surgery, but they were married. Perhaps he conned her hoping she'd go along just for a shot at the money? I dunno. It didn't seem like anyone else had trouble recognizing her, and nobody even seemed to mention or ask why her face might have looked different.

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[–] DogtownGirl 8 years ago

Yes, precisely!

My thoughts exactly.

That said, on both of our parts, I am amazed that the film was so good, owing I reckon to the fact that the majority of people went along with the plot implausibilities, didn't they? Didn't we?

** There MUST be more than one way to skin this Cat! **

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[–] risingapple 8 years ago

Johannes told the Nazis what they wanted to know, in order so that his wife would be sent off to the camps and ... (hopefully, in Johannes' mind, anyway) EXTERMINATED! Johnny wanted his wife's loot, simple as that. Dead, he could get the lot of it, from her Estate.

If this was the case, why did he divorce her the day she was arrested?

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[–] DogtownGirl 8 years ago

risingapple,

True! I don't think that this was ever in dispute. What isn't quite so crystal clear is how in the heck Johnny could NOT recognise his wife after she returned from the camps, when her resemblance to her former self was so OBVIOUS. Perhaps, a part of his psyche kept telling him over and over that Nelly really was dead (??), thereby blocking out any rational reasoning enabling Johnny to think about the possibly of her having returned at all, alive.

** There MUST be more than one way to skin this Cat! **

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[–] filmflamfilm 8 years ago

The only "rational reasoning" missing is you and your fellow Americans who show such a complete lack of understanding of such a excellent film.

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[–] DogtownGirl 8 years ago

film,

Your HIGHLY stereotypical opinion has been noted.
I rather doubt that you KNOW many Americans, truly, and thoroughly.
Most people who opine as you just have, do not.
Alas.

Good day! 

** There MUST be more than one way to skin this Cat! **

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[–] filmflamfilm 8 years ago

Why do Americans call films movies? Why does Hollywood, which once turned out some wonderful films (in the 1930s and 40s) turn out such trash today? How many Americans know or appreciate the wonderful films of Preston Sturges (an American)?

What is film? Is it entertainment or is it art? Obviously, it depends on the film. The big flaw at IMDB is that art is judged as entertainment. And, sometimes vice versa.

I know German cinema reasonably well. I speak German. I go to Germany several times per year. Phoenix is not meant as entertainment. Germans do not look at the events in their country 70-80 years ago as entertainment. Yet, there seems to be a lot of confusion here about whether Phoenix is entertainment or not.

Why is this forum filled with discussions about triva? Your absurd notion that Johannes should have recognised Nelly, after all that had been discussed previously (in the film) is a good example of this. What difference does it make to the story of the film what sort of relationship Lene had with Nelly? Do you really have no idea why Johannes betrayed his wife and divorced her?

Obviously, this film is primarily intended for a German audience. Most Germans know the history of their country. They know about, for example, the Nürnberger Gesetzen of 1935 and what role that plays in this film. I'll be willing to bet you that very few English-only speakers have any idea what role this played.

Of course, none of this is secret information. Any English-only speaker could look in Wikipedia or some other online source and read more about this era in Germany. But, I guess, for most of the users here, it's a lot easier to just call this beautifully made film "trash" or "flawed" or some other negative term and feel that they've warned others about a "trashy" film.

It's sad really.

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