MovieChat Forums > Phoenix (2014) Discussion > A Masterpiece **spoilers**

A Masterpiece spoilers

posted 8 years ago by Pond_Lilian
11 replies | jump to latest

wow, just wow. What a movie!
There are so many layers, where do we even start?

I have been always interested in the paradox of love, where one good, decent, kind person is absolutely in love with a monster, and comes up with endless stories and rationalizations just not to face the truth- the person you are in love with is the absolute evil. Great choice to cast Ronald Zehrfeld , "Johnny" has to be smoking hot, because it is often what adds the complexity to the situation. How can he be so evil? He is so hot, and when he touches her, she melts away... How can one face the fact that a person you love with your whole heart is pure evil? After all, he was the reason she survived the camp, dreaming of reunion.

There are several points in the movie when you want to b*i*t*c*h-slap Nelly and shake the living life out of her, "What are you doing, girl?" The scene when she is on a bike with him and tells herself (and to him)a story how he did not betray Nelly, oh, the stories people tell themselves to avoid facing the reality!

This is what basically killed Lena, by getting back with Johnny and by trying to forget and forgive everything, Nelly betrayed all victims of the Holocaust and it was just too much for Lena to handle.

Many asked why Johhny did not recognize her up until the end. He did not recognize her because he is full of himself, I mean, eye color, shoes fit, general appearance, the SIGNATURE is identical. But since the guy is so self-absorbed and full of himself, he genuinely does not recognize her, Nelly is dead and forgotten, and all those sweet monies are almost in his pocket.

Finally, the scene with friends. How deliciously awkward. Fake friends, fake husband, whole past life was a lie. Yes, no one asked her about the camp, this is how Germany was back then. You are back? Good, let's just pretend nothing has happened and move on with our lives like nothing happened.

The ending is pure gold, way to go, girl! Too bad it took Lena's death for you to snap out of it.

This movie is now forever on my list of best of the best, sitting right next to 45 years.

[–] blanche-2 8 years ago

agree totally, except that I think it was Johnny's incredible denial that made him not recognize her. In his subconscious he knew it was her, just like she knew he betrayed her.

[–] filmflamfilm 8 years ago

I think you are both missing the point of the film and history. When the Nazis sent Jews to concentration or death camps, the general expectation was that they wouldn't come back. I don't mean it was only the Nazis who didn't expect them to return, it was also their neighbours and friends.

The idea that "Johnny" didn't recognise Nelly is absurd. He simply didn't believe that the woman before him could have possibly survived one of the Nazi's death camps. The fact that he knew she should have a number tattoo on her arm tells us that he knew she had been in Auschwitz. Why? Because Auschwitz was the only camp that used tattoos.

Very few people survived Auschwitz. In fact, most of those who survived were probably people sent there just before the Russians arrived and the war ended. Even the Jews who were useful to the Nazis in Auschwitz had a life span measured only in months, rather than hours or days, as most Jews had.

The fact that Nelly survived it tells us that she probably hadn't been there for very long. But that is not something the general German population would have known. The Nazis kept, especially the death camps, secret from the Germans as well as the rest of the world.

[–] blanche-2 8 years ago

I think the film is symbolic for the incredible denial of the German people about what happened to the Jews. I do believe that Johnny recognized Nelly, I said that, but he couldn't admit it to himself.

As far as "neighbors and friends" not expecting them to return, the "neighbors and friends" never admitted that they were being sent to camps and put to death, although they must have realized it. There has been much written about the German denial.

If the general German population was kept from knowing about the camps, how is it that they didn't expect anyone to return?

[–] filmflamfilm 8 years ago

I have never seen this "incredible denial of the German people about what happened to the Jews." Actually most of this denial seems to be happening in the US.

I don't know where you are getting your information from, but it is mostly wrong. How would the neighbours and friends know about death camps when they were kept secret and outside of Germany?

They didn't expect anyone to return not because they knew they were dead, but because no one did. Most Holocaust survivors emigrated to Israel or the US after the war. Very few moved back to Germany. Why would they? Almost all of them had lost their family and their property. So what would they move back to?

The Phoenix story is quite an exception. That Nelly would come back from a Polish death camp to look for her husband is certainly unusual. Since 1935 (ten years before the film takes place), the Nazis passed laws forbidding "Aryans" from marrying Jews. While we don't know the ages of Nelly and "Johnny", I would guess that they had been married illegally, which is probably why "Johnny" was questioned by the police.

[–] blanche-2 8 years ago

my info comes from living in both Germany and Austria, where there is still anti-Semitism. Remember when the film takes place.

http://www.jta.org/2015/10/01/arts-entertainment/labyrinth-of-lies-film-explores-holocaust-denial-in-postwar-germany

[–] filmflamfilm 8 years ago

Have you actually seen that film? Do you know what the original title is? Do you know what it means? Do you think this film is a documentary?

I have the DVD. The "hero" of the film is the attorney who will not let the matter drop. He is supported by the former head of the prosecutor's office. The "bad guys" are those in the office who don't want to take the case. That Radmann is clearly the one who can see clearly and act on it, tells us that the film is fighting against silence, not supporting it.

There is no European country I know that makes more anti-Holocaust/anti-Nazi films than Germany.

My parents, who came from Jewish families, grew up in Nazi Germany. As far as I know, none of the families returned to Germany after the war.

And the US: http://goo.gl/Z93GAf and if you want to talk more about Holocaust denial, what about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

Sure, I don't doubt that there is anti-Semitism in many places. But, Germany also has more laws forbidding it than any other country I know. Did you know that Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany? You might ask David Irving about that.

And here you can read about German laws I mentioned: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksverhetzung

[–] blanche-2 8 years ago

Today there are many anti-Holocaust denial crime laws. However, post-war, it was a different matter. And, if people hadn't denied it, there wouldn't be a need for such laws.

I don't think at all that the film supports silence in any way. I think it is showing Johnny's denial, and hers. She can't accept that he betrayed her and allows him to make her over, thinking it will make a difference. Deep down, he knows it's her, but he can't accept it.

I certainly don't want to get into a big discussion about Germany and the Holocaust, though I think the film is making the point that denial is a very strong force. And it is talking about the immediate post-war Germany.

My voice teacher's husband was a German Jew; he and his family went to America; I hope it was the same for your parents' families.

[–] filmflamfilm 8 years ago

I don't really see much point in continuing this. In your reply, you've confused the two films: I said something about one and you applied it to the other.

I'll make one final point and then end my discussion on this point: if "Johnny" recognised her, why was he so shocked at the end when he realised it was her?

I do agree with you that this is an outstanding film.

[–] blanche-2 8 years ago

not sure what two films I confused.

I didn't think Johnny seemed shocked at the end; I thought he seemed defeated. You act as if I'm the only one who felt this way - read other replies on the board. Though you probably won't as you seem to have been raked over the coals pretty well for your superior attitude. If I'd realized it was you when you wrote to me, I wouldn't have answered the first time.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] naples-884-346409 8 years ago

Imdb is filled with idiots, many of whom don't even like film.

Mr. Flam,

if you don't like IMDB and all the "idiots" here,

why are you wasting your time with us ? 

We really don't need you, you know ?

We are perfectly happy without you 