I agree with you that it does seem that Red has crossed a line, but wouldn't you even consider that perhaps things may not be what they seem? That perhaps there is more to the story than Red killing (or giving the appearance of trying to kill) one of the most important people in his life?
Well, yeah... that's how I roll. I can write confidently when I support my position but the moment new information leads elsewhere, I'll shift my view.
In this case, I had a strong, visceral reaction and it took me this long to address your reply because I literally needed to not think about it. LOL, I got distressed over this... Fiction!!! LOL Incredulous! Livid! Shocked! At the time, if I'd had a nerf tv screen, I'd have thrown something at Red (accompanied by a few choice expletives)! See? So, now that I'm back to a more rational place... :)
I was already ticked off at Red last season for his invasive treatment of Liz. I thought he over-stepped too much when it was just her, or just her and Tom, but once she was pregnant, the scales were tipped.
Red either needed to fess up and tell her all or bug off.
The people who knew Red the longest and best were Dembe and Kate, presumably Kate came before Dembe. They BOTH told Red that Liz had both a need and a right to know what he was keeping from her. Okay, maybe Red knows that one bit more than they do on the subject and he is right and they are wrong.
But, she's already being targeted, discredited, hunted, kidnapped... and finally, she couldn't even have a baby in a modern, bullet-free facility! Liz's ability to protect her own baby is being compromised by this blindness to assess what is going on around her. She's in constant danger, so what is Red protecting exactly that is more important than that?
Kate is right. Whatever Red is thinking, his choices are doing nothing to protect Liz and Agnes. Is she supposed to stand by him EVEN AFTER his choices endangered them? Of course not. A good friend would step in and do what they could to keep them safe.
Kate tried talking to Red. She argued with Red. She watched Liz and Tom try to escape him because he wouldn't listen to them, either. Going behind his back was not anyone's first attempt to get Red to hear them.
If Kate didn't know something, or Liz didn't, then it was Red's responsibility to communicate in such a way that he had agreement. He failed to do that.
That they got kidnapped in Cuba rather than killed in D.C. - was a toss up. It's not like what Red had been doing prevented a hail of bullets in a church, right? So, I call "BS" that Kate made a mistake which endangered them. That's just geography.
It's not disloyal to pick up the slack when a friend has gone so off the rails that they endanger babies. What Kate did was the same as what Red did... "there was an adult and there was a child... I saved the child." How dare he fault her for that when he has full access to experiential empathy?
Red should be thanking Kate. Would it be reasonable that he also feel shocked and hurt and insecure... sure. That should inspire a conversation about how he messed up so badly and how he was hurting everyone around him.
So, it's quite a leap for me to even stomach his words to her about disloyalty or a need for her to be forgiven. No. He should be asking for forgiveness. He put them all in an untenable position. He put Liz into a corner and does he understand nothing of how Mama Bears will predictably act? Of course she fled... she had to. Red owes her the apology. She tried to protect her offspring - nothing to apologize for on her end.
Red's words to Kaplan at the clearing were what set me off. I did consider that he was talking for a wire... that someone was listening but the words didn't make sense for that. Do you think they sounded "staged"? It sounded "off" to me. Which makes me hopeful that you are right and that something is going on which means the character of Red hasn't been destroyed.
Until then... No, just NO!
I could not believe any scenario in which Kaplan would now turn on Red. Never. Would she accept a bullet in the head (at the metal plate) to go undercover to find Agnes? Yeah. She'd do anything, I think. But, not to make things up to Red or to show she's sorry... she isn't and she shouldn't. She'd just be consistent in protecting Liz and now, Agnes.
Red's inability to trust others made this especially hard for him and if this is a ruse to get Kate next to Kirk... it may have the additional and secondary benefit of also helping Red trust her again.
The biggest hint to me that this is a ruse is that Dembe is right there. Mr. Kaplan is fiercely protective of Dembe and they are like family, too. I can't imagine that Red would involve Dembe in harming Kate. That would be too frightening for Dembe, given his traumatic history. I don't think Dembe could handle Red harming her. I think that would be a game-changer.
Remember during the birth, she lit into Red when he was blaming Dembe for something? That obviously wasn't the first time she'd been protective of him. They don't show a whole lot of interaction between them but I think there's been enough to establish that they'd die for each other.
Lastly, I want to believe that the writers can show us that Red has the capacity to learn, to see that he's wrong, to admit it, to apologize and to make amends. I can't imagine that anything less will redeem him. He's just got to see how wrong he is.
And, wow, is he going to be in a mess of trouble once Dom hears about Elizabeth and Agnes. I love Brian Dennehy so this will be a welcome return.
If Red just did to Mr. Kaplan what it looks like he did... punish, vengeance... whatever, then I'm good with every other character kicking him through the rest of the story. If it is a ruse in which he's in cahoots with Kate... okay. :)
BTW, I like reading your posts, too. Even when we disagree or just see from different angles, I enjoy how well you reflect your POV. :)
ETA:
It's also possible that Kirk will remember Mr. Kaplan if she helped Katerina in the past to care for her baby. (Kate mentioned something about Red placing Masha in her arms as a baby and asking her to protect the child.) So Kirk might accept and believe Kate's maternal instincts to want to protect Masha's child instead of being loyal to Red. (Red certainly destroyed any loyalty remaining by trying to kill her...)
I think we see this part differently. Kaplan's loyalty has never wavered. All she did was step in and try to protect Liz and Agnes when she saw that Red's proximity to them was endangering them further. It was Red whom betrayed all of them. No one was trying to hurt Red - they were trying to save a baby. Are they supposed to say, "Gee, Red, sorry to have acted defensively and protectively?" Mr. Kaplan is nothing if not fiercely and maternally - protective. She would never turn on Red. She understands him and she loves him.
What bugs me so much is that Red KNOWS. He asked Kate, "Had it really come to this?" Yeah, he knew darn well that nothing short of him CAUSING others to act in this way, would have compelled them to act in this way. That's why Kate told him the details made no difference. The point is, he knows her character. She's a proven entity. He knew that he really messed up. So, why was he saying things as if that weren't obvious?
So, yeah, that does fit with setting a tone for the eventual scene in the woods.
~~~ "Thinking" involves a lot more work than simply "having a thought"! ~~~
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rlhand55
8 years ago
Brilliant writeup. Absolutely brilliant. I think that I agree with you almost completely. I certainly agree that if shooting Kaplan isn't a ruse, they taken Red to a very bad place. That's a good point about Dembe. Even though Dembe didn't agree with what Kaplan did, I agree that it's hard to believe that Dembe wouldn't do something to stop Red from killing Kaplan and Dembe wouldn't have just driven them to the middle of nowhere and let them walk off into the woods if the situation was as dangerous as it looked.
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KellyKeybored
8 years ago
Good post, kuntext, I agree with most of it. I'm glad after taking the time to think about things, that you now feel it's possible that the shooting was part of a plan to send Kate to Kirk. I'm desperately hanging onto that theory, for all it's worth.
From what I've read elsewhere online, it seems as if there are many people that are disgusted with Red's actions, and are ready to give up on the show. So I hope the writers plan to offer something soon in the way of providing an explanation for Red's behavior, because it is unacceptable anyway you look at it. And its not because he shot someone for betraying him, it's because of the person he chose to shoot. And yes, I agree... it doesn't merely seem staged, the entire scene seemed "off." I barely recognized Red, and the intensity of his anger and hatred did not seem appropriate in a scene with someone like Mr. Kaplan, who has risked her life for him on numerous occasions.
Listening to Red, you would think that Mr. Kaplan tried to kill Liz or Agnes, which she of course did not do any such thing. Which makes me wonder if there is any truth to occasional comment that Red is nuts, or crazy. Maybe he is no longer seeing things clearly, he's losing control.
Red should be thanking Kate.
I agree, and whenever this topic came up after last season's finale, that's exactly how I felt. Most everyone thought that Mr. Kaplan was toast, but I could not accept that Red would ever kill her, she didn't deserve that. It basically goes against everything we have come to accept about the two characters, how there has always been a deep respect and familial fondness and affection between them. Red should have been able to forgive her with time, just as he has most likely already forgiven Liz (because it seems in his eyes, Liz can do no wrong).
We can't really compare Mr. Kaplan to any other person that Red has killed for betrayal. Even Grey, Newton Phillips, Red's close friend and assistant (who still called him "sir") was not as close to Red or shared his most protected secrets. In season one, Grey asked Red why he "wasted" his one time access to the NSA database on "the girl." So he obviously did not know how much Lizzie meant to Red.
Red admitted that the hardest thing he has ever done was to kill Sam, even though Sam was dying from a terminal illness. (Then again the writers must have forgotten about this, because Red once again said the same thing in Cape May, when he told Katerina that the hardest thing he has ever done was to choose who to save, the Hobson's choice. Both mother and child were doomed to die, he could only save one.
He certainly did not tell Mr. Kaplan that shooting her was the hardest thing he ever had to do! (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
My comment:
(Red certainly destroyed any loyalty remaining by trying to kill her...)
Yours:
Kaplan's loyalty has never wavered.
and
Mr. Kaplan is nothing if not fiercely and maternally - protective. She would never turn on Red. She understands him and she loves him.
Yes, I really do agree with you, and I didn't explain myself well in my post. What I really should have said was that to Kirk, the staged shooting would make it look like Red tried to kill his loyal friend, and in Kirk's view, Red's action should have destroyed any loyalty Kate had remaining for Red. If it was part of a staged plan, then Kate would have to play the part of an embittered former asset. So she would only pretend to be disloyal to Red, in order to con Kirk.
I am really anxious for Thursday, so that we can see the next episode... because at this point I can't defend Red's actions in any way shape or form. He's just gone too far this time.
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