Overwhelming


I don't know if it was more the claustrophobia or the fact that I knew all the main characters were in a hopeless situation or because I haven't seen a war film in a long time, but this is one of the hardest ones I've had to watch and I've seen a lot overall just not any in recent years.

I really think it's the claustrophobia. Being in the tank corps or whatever must be dreadful. I can't believe people were able to face this kind of situations with such courage. Hats off.

I've thought about joining the army but if I can barely handle this then I guess it wouldn't be a good idea.

Also is it a sin to kill/shoot yourself if you're burning alive? I'd be pretty pissed if it was.

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Contrary to what the statement at the opening of the movie says, German qualitative superiority to US armor actually lasted only a nine month period from D-Day in Normandy June 1944 to about late February to early March 1945.

The M4 Sherman was superior to the early German Mark IV tank, and the later Mark V Panther, Mark VI Tiger were not encountered in large numbers prior to Normandy. Also, contrary to what the movie depicted, while the rule of thumb was that it took five Shermans to knock out one Tiger, that did not mean that the Tiger inflicted a 5 to 1 kill ratio against the Sherman, but is part of the general rule of thumb that success in offensive operations requires a 3 to 1 numerical ratio over the defender. Except for one or two isolated incidents in Normandy in which Tigers got into flanking ambushes against mostly Sherman-equipped British and Canadian units, the lopsided Tiger vs Sherman kill ratio is a myth, and SHAEF (Eisenhower's headquarters) did not consider the qualitative superiority of the Panther and Tiger to be that significant. (The commander of one of those Tiger units, who had personally knocked out over a dozen Shermans in that fight, was himself killed in an ambush by Shermans when he took the offensive.)

The US had developed a tank from the ground up specifically to kill Tigers, the M26 Pershing, but the project was put on a back burner based on the recommendations of SHAEF due to each Pershing requiring the shipping space of three Shermans. It wasn't until the Battle of the Bulge in December 1944 that the Tiger and Panther threat were finally taken seriously and SHAEF asked for the Pershing to be delivered yesterday. The first 20 Pershings were pulled off the Aberdeen Proving Grounds and arrived in Europe in January 1945 at the tail end of the battle, and were operational by February. Depending on which statistics to use, the Pershing enjoyed a 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 kill ratio over the Tiger. All but one of the Pershings knocked out in combat were repaired and returned to the line, the one unrepairable being knocked out by an antitank artillery piece.

It's good that you are thinking realistically about what might happen to you if you join the Army. I've been retired from the Army for 13 years and I'm not one to go around recruiting people with BS. For whatever it's worth, as far as I know, there have only been a half dozen US tank crewmen killed in combat in M1 Abrams tanks in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, mostly while having their heads sticking out of the crew hatches and being hit by IED shrapnel or snipers. On the other hand, sticking my head out of the hatch to look out for the enemy and maintain situational awareness is one of the reasons I've never felt claustrophobic in a tank. It was different in World War II with Shermans, or even Pershings, but nowadays the inside of an M1 Abrams is just about the safest place to be on a battlefield.

MadTom
Major, Armor, US Army (Retired)

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Thanks for the interesting read!

Also...thank you for your service.

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lso is it a sin to kill/shoot yourself if you're burning alive? I'd be pretty pissed if it was.



that's actually a strange question. I would say that if God does not want you to pull your own ripcord in a situation of unimaginable agony, he should not have condemned you to being trapped in a fiery inferno...

in WW1, many pilots carried revolvers just in case they were trapped in burning airplanes..there was really no other use for them up there.

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Thanks for that interesting history. Seems the Germans only had superiority in the beginning, similar situation with the them and the Russian's. And I'm surprised to hear how low the casualties are in the tanks in Iraq/Afghanistan I thought they were always running into IEDs. I guess tanks these days can withstand such explosions. I'd still rather be on ground aanywys if in any case I was to join.

Yeah I realize it was a strange question but it's just something I thought I'd add because I can't help but wonder that when I see scenes of people in a horrible situation like that. I like your explanation.

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A tank "combat loss" can be anything from total irrepairability from the ammo blowing up, to a temporary immobility from a broken track from a land mine that the crew can themselves repair if not under fire.

Starting with the Shermans soon after Normandy, the Army got the art of vehicle recovery and repair down to a science so that knocked out Shermans, even those with all the crew killed, were often recovered and repaired and returned to combat within 48 hours. The Fury, as it was at the end of the movie, probably would have fallen under that statistic.

It often depended on the tactical situation as to recoverability of the vehicle, and since the Allies were on the offensive and almost always prevailed on the battlefield, only a relatively small number of Allied tanks on the Western Front were permanent losses. A good illustration is the one instance in which a Tiger knocked out a Pershing: the Tiger knocked out the Pershing's main gun and killed the loader and gunner, but immediately backed into the basement of a house and got stuck there with the house collapsing around it. The remainder of the American tanks overran the German unit and captured the crew of the stranded Tiger, and the Tiger never returned to combat. The Pershing was repaired and returned to combat in nine days with a new crew, the delay being from the newness of the Pershing and the obtainability of spare parts.

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you should go on the Amazon history boards, very erudite discussions re armoured warfare and stuff go on there, and one frequent poster is a Gulf War #1 tank squadron commander ..

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MadTom, thank you from the bottom of my heart for your service, and thank you for sharing all the info. My family has an enduring place for those who serve/d. I've many many family members, from my children on up the line, who seved in one branch of the military or another. I just realized this past year why I have a preference toward war movies. Because I didn't serve myself, it's a regret. Thank you again for the sharing.

Ignorance isn't bliss. Ignorance is laziness. So stop being so lazy!

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