MovieChat Forums > A Matter of Faith (2016) Discussion > The reason there are so many Poes...

The reason there are so many Poes...

posted 10 years ago by frontiersmantanis
11 replies | jump to latest

The reason the trolls on these boards are almost exclusively people pretending to be theists/creationists as opposed to pretending to be atheists/understanding evolution is that it doesn't take any knowledge at all to be a religious fundamentalist, anyone can do it. On the other hand, skeptics generally have a working knowledge of logic and science.

Join us on facebook http://www.facebook.com/groups/CreationEvolutionDebate/

[–] Auntneice7 10 years ago

Golly, that wasn't insulting or obnoxious at all!

You may be shocked to find that there are many who believe the Bible's account of Creation who are HIGHLY educated and have degrees that would outnumber your pog collection.

Try showing a little respect for people of differing viewpoints. You'd want the same from them, wouldn't you? It goes two ways.

[–] SedateProf 10 years ago

Most of the Christians on this planet accept evolution and know that it poses no threat to God. You must have a very weak God if science must be denied.

[–] SedateProf 10 years ago

Most of the Christians on this planet accept evolution and know that it poses no threat to God. You must have a very weak God if science must be denied.

The Bible fits just fine with evolution theory.

[–] Auntneice7 10 years ago

You must have a very weak God if science must be denied.

What about evolution makes God stronger, SedateProf??? Seriously? If there is a disparity between man's science and God's Word, who OUGHT to win out??? I perceive you are claiming to be a believer, so I'm asking you! If God's Word isn't jibing with your science, then which one ought to go in the ashcan??? God's Word?? Not for me, friend.

I read in Genesis, the phrase "So the evening and the morning were the first day".

Whereas the term "day" can be used for different time periods, "The Day of the Lord" or "as in the days of Noah", etc, "evening" and "morning" are very specific terms regarding time. I have a hard time believing that God, Who spent such little time ANYWHERE else in the Bible on the subject of the manner of Creation and the line of humanity and was SO specific in His wording as to the beginnings of humankind, just planted this little cosmic garden and sat it out, waiting for it to grow and lifeforms that were one thing to become another thing, not just a form of adaptation, but COMPLETELY CHANGING lifeforms, and then said nothing about that in His Word.

Where God has absolutely made some things in His Word obscure because He wants to grow the faith of man, there are some things He has made crystal clear and reading Genesis, that is obviously one of those places.

Sitting around, holding onto something that MAN thought up but that God gave absolutely NO evidence for whatsoever in His Word to us, is tantamount to straining at gnats and trying to figure out how many angels can sit on the head of a pin.

First and foremost, how is one soul going to be saved by this conversation? By this SUBJECT? And yet I see several people here, naming the name of Christ as their God and yet they are standing with what is a very illogical, ill-defined and NOT AT ALL Biblically defensible, man-made religion.

Are there things about this science I'm not an expert on? Absolutely. I tend not to waste my time on things that don't jibe with what God has already made plain. It is a form of vain speculation. For every "absolute" that scientists believe they have, there is a revision, upon revision, upon revision. God's Word, is the same yesterday, today and forever.

To skip to the point that will be pounced on by the unbelieving and smug science worshippers, I understand in your thinking that that is circular reasoning. Know what? I DON'T CARE! When God has worked as strongly and obviously in my life and has proven Himself to me in as many ways as He has, there is nothing that mere human beings are going to be able to say to me that will counter His Word.

The effort that has to be gone through in order to "debunk" the Bible is absolutely hilarious. I know. I'm going to hear, "it doesn't take any effort at all". But that's by people who either don't know Him or have a serious plan NOT to know Him.

You accuse me of having a weak God because I deny your version of science. Then may I respectfully point that finger back at you? You display no faith that God could speak the universe into existence as He SAID He did in Genesis 1 and have therefore questioned His honesty and integrity, as I said of the bible and science person. You have limited God by demanding that His Word, as written, is untrue. "Evening" and "morning" are very specific terms that God does not use in other ways in His Word.

Where I do have a background in scientific work, I'm in the field of medicine, I have found that when there is a choice between taking God's Word for something or taking man's, I will defer to God's every time. God is God. Man is not. God does not lie. Man does. With great skill and repetition.

And this is not to you, SedateProf, but someone accused the people I mentioned in another post as scientifically degreed people of great intelligence that disagree with your beliefs as "dentists and chiropractors". No, they are doctors of Microbiology and other of the life sciences. JUST like your little demi-gods are. I know that is harsh and sarcastic, but frankly, I grow weary of people who claim a faith in God, in essence, taking it back and saying God is not capable of doing what He said He did. And He made it quite clear in Genesis 1 how He created the universe. I don't have to have ten Master's Degrees in chemistry, biology, microbiology, geology and so forth in order to take God at His Word.

You may call that simplistic. It may dismay you to learn that I don't care. God is at times VERY simple. What He wants us to know, He puts down on the lower shelves so people of ALL walks of life can attain to that understanding. The deeper, more esoteric stuff, He holds out so that we will seek Him more diligently. That is not a difficult concept and is definitely one a believer ought to be aware of.

Back to my original problem here. Those calling themselves Christian bullying another believer. There is no excuse for that and any of you who are engaging in that ought to be ashamed of yourselves. It's wrong in the extreme.

This is not a core theological issue. While I believe it is still very important because it goes to the very heart of a person's belief in God's honesty and integrity, I don't believe that the issue of how old the earth is is going to save one soul. I DO find it hard to believe that a believer who holds the Bible with ANY amount of respect can still believe man descended from simians when God clearly said he created man out of the dust of the ground. There is nothing there to indicate, even in the most hidden or esoteric manner, that God began the evolutionary process with apes and several million years later, BOOM!, out came homo sapien! It's not there, brothers and sisters! God is not in the habit of hiding things He intends us to understand from the get go! Stop calling Him a liar!

Whereas I absolutely believe there are many mysteries left to uncover in the world, I will never be able to buy into something God has already been so clear and unambiguous about. No, I do not question His Word. Why would I? He's God. You're not. Neither is Darwin or Hitchens or any Christian who adheres to the science of man. God trumps you all. And that's as it should be.

Maybe the lack of humility isn't on my side of the argument. If you're really a believer, maybe you need to ask yourself a couple of questions. First, "Do I really trust God as much as I think I do?" and "While I totally believe God is real, I may have forgotten that there's another player in this game. The one the Bible calls "the Father of Lies", who would LOVE to see mankind go down a rabbit trail of "education" and "science" to make ourselves feel so smart and superior that we begin to question God's honesty. Am I guilty of that, Lord?"

Two pretty important questions. I just don't see any of you guys that call yourselves believers even thinking along the lines that you may have fallen for a really well-built deception. Because how close are ANY of us to pleasing God in this controversy??? Not so much.

[–] Kevinology_Rises 8 years ago

Seriously? If there is a disparity between man's science and God's Word, who OUGHT to win out??? I perceive you are claiming to be a believer, so I'm asking you! If God's Word isn't jibing with your science, then which one ought to go in the ashcan??? God's Word?? Not for me, friend.

Really? So you're implying that even if you saw what you perceived to be irrefutable proof that something science claimed was true, and it contradicted God's word, you'd refuse to believe it no matter what on that basis alone?

I read in Genesis, the phrase "So the evening and the morning were the first day".

Whereas the term "day" can be used for different time periods, "The Day of the Lord" or "as in the days of Noah", etc, "evening" and "morning" are very specific terms regarding time. I have a hard time believing that God, Who spent such little time ANYWHERE else in the Bible on the subject of the manner of Creation and the line of humanity and was SO specific in His wording as to the beginnings of humankind, just planted this little cosmic garden and sat it out, waiting for it to grow and lifeforms that were one thing to become another thing, not just a form of adaptation, but COMPLETELY CHANGING lifeforms, and then said nothing about that in His Word.

Indeed, I have a hard time believing that too, it's almost as if his word was written by primitive goat herders in the Bronze Age. Oh wait...

Where God has absolutely made some things in His Word obscure because He wants to grow the faith of man, there are some things He has made crystal clear and reading Genesis, that is obviously one of those places.

If it were "obvious" then your religion wouldn't have so many denominations, all of whom disagree with how many parts of the bible are interpreted. Meanwhile we have science, which is almost unanimous on the theory of evolution... gee, I wonder.

Sitting around, holding onto something that MAN thought up but that God gave absolutely NO evidence for whatsoever in His Word to us, is tantamount to straining at gnats and trying to figure out how many angels can sit on the head of a pin.

Again, I completely agree, I don't understand those who claim evolution is compatible with the bible, in my view it directly contradicts it or at the very least provides huge problems with both a literal and a metaphorical interpretation.

First and foremost, how is one soul going to be saved by this conversation? By this SUBJECT? And yet I see several people here, naming the name of Christ as their God and yet they are standing with what is a very illogical, ill-defined and NOT AT ALL Biblically defensible, man-made religion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

When conflicting beliefs occur, we have a tendency to rationalize one or the other. In the case of Christianity, usually Christians try to incorporate evolution into the text since they know it's proven, but they don't want it to destroy their fairy tale either. In other words, they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Are there things about this science I'm not an expert on? Absolutely. I tend not to waste my time on things that don't jibe with what God has already made plain.

So you're basically admitting to not even bothering to study what you're discussing. Great start, bud.

It is a form of vain speculation. For every "absolute" that scientists believe they have, there is a revision, upon revision, upon revision. God's Word, is the same yesterday, today and forever.

God's word asserts perfection and total accuracy, refuses to change with the times and in the face of contradictory evidence, science does the exact opposite of this... and you say science is the vain one? I'm sorry, I literally don't see how you could possibly come to that conclusion. The very method by which science operates is based on the fact that humans are fallible and can be wrong, that's why it's constantly correcting itself - amending its findings when new research yields better results - that's how it's stayed relevant for so long. If science just shrugged its shoulders when we found out the planet was spherical and said "Nah... uh... think we'll stick with flat", where would we be exactly?

To skip to the point that will be pounced on by the unbelieving and smug science worshippers, I understand in your thinking that that is circular reasoning. Know what? I DON'T CARE! When God has worked as strongly and obviously in my life and has proven Himself to me in as many ways as He has, there is nothing that mere human beings are going to be able to say to me that will counter His Word.

I... well... there's really nothing I can say to that, you've pretty much admitted your reasoning is illogical. Thanks, I guess.

The effort that has to be gone through in order to "debunk" the Bible is absolutely hilarious. I know. I'm going to hear, "it doesn't take any effort at all". But that's by people who either don't know Him or have a serious plan NOT to know Him.

No, it really does take no effort at all. In fact you don't even need to read the bible (though I myself have, as a former Christian, from cover to cover), you can just observe the world around you. That's all it takes.

Where I do have a background in scientific work, I'm in the field of medicine, I have found that when there is a choice between taking God's Word for something or taking man's, I will defer to God's every time. God is God. Man is not. God does not lie. Man does. With great skill and repetition.

You're in the field of medicine, to my knowledge a field which will directly benefit from discoveries associated with evolution. Hang up your hat, you're done.

And this is not to you, SedateProf, but someone accused the people I mentioned in another post as scientifically degreed people of great intelligence that disagree with your beliefs as "dentists and chiropractors". No, they are doctors of Microbiology and other of the life sciences. JUST like your little demi-gods are. I know that is harsh and sarcastic, but frankly, I grow weary of people who claim a faith in God, in essence, taking it back and saying God is not capable of doing what He said He did. And He made it quite clear in Genesis 1 how He created the universe. I don't have to have ten Master's Degrees in chemistry, biology, microbiology, geology and so forth in order to take God at His Word.

Yeah, he created the universe because he said so... in... a book! And no one will tell me different!

That doesn't sound delusional at all.

You may call that simplistic.

I prefer delusional, it's by definition the appropriate word here.

It may dismay you to learn that I don't care. God is at times VERY simple. What He wants us to know, He puts down on the lower shelves so people of ALL walks of life can attain to that understanding. The deeper, more esoteric stuff, He holds out so that we will seek Him more diligently. That is not a difficult concept and is definitely one a believer ought to be aware of.

I refer you back to the countless denominations of Christianity to illustrate the uh... "simplistic" nature of your biblical text.

Back to my original problem here. Those calling themselves Christian bullying another believer. There is no excuse for that and any of you who are engaging in that ought to be ashamed of yourselves. It's wrong in the extreme.

But it's okay to bully non-believers... ??

There is nothing there to indicate, even in the most hidden or esoteric manner, that God began the evolutionary process with apes and several million years later, BOOM!, out came homo sapien! It's not there, brothers and sisters! God is not in the habit of hiding things He intends us to understand from the get go! Stop calling Him a liar!

Why are you saying "BOOM!" as though it was some sort of sudden reaction like an explosion? You got the millions of years part correct, but I think you've failed to understand that it's a gradual process, like aging. When you look in the mirror, can you see yourself age? No, you just look in the mirror one day and you notice you look a lot different than you did five or ten years ago. You can only tell by comparing your appearance over a period of time. That's evolution.

Whereas I absolutely believe there are many mysteries left to uncover in the world, I will never be able to buy into something God has already been so clear and unambiguous about. No, I do not question His Word. Why would I? He's God. You're not. Neither is Darwin or Hitchens or any Christian who adheres to the science of man. God trumps you all. And that's as it should be.

Now you're relying on an appeal to authority. Once again, you have no proof that it is the word of God, and even if it was, you only have his word that he's not lying about the entire thing. It's nothing but pure blind faith, and that's not a good thing at all.

Maybe the lack of humility isn't on my side of the argument. If you're really a believer, maybe you need to ask yourself a couple of questions. First, "Do I really trust God as much as I think I do?" and "While I totally believe God is real, I may have forgotten that there's another player in this game. The one the Bible calls "the Father of Lies", who would LOVE to see mankind go down a rabbit trail of "education" and "science" to make ourselves feel so smart and superior that we begin to question God's honesty. Am I guilty of that, Lord?"

Oh here we go, now the preposterous claims that science is some sort of product of the boogeyman under the bed or "Satan" or whatever other naive, childish pap you've no choice to resort to when you have no argument.

Two pretty important questions. I just don't see any of you guys that call yourselves believers even thinking along the lines that you may have fallen for a really well-built deception. Because how close are ANY of us to pleasing God in this controversy??? Not so much.

You know what I think is a really well built deception (well, for the time)? Christianity itself. Convince people they're sinful, impure, dirty, then offer them a placebo for it. A cure for a fabricated illness, that particular scheme was pretty impressive I must say.

"I have no idea what "hammer time" is. Or how it differs from regular time."

[–] iztok-mravlja-1 8 years ago

No, you just look in the mirror one day and you notice you look a lot different than you did five or ten years ago. You can only tell by comparing your appearance over a period of time. That's evolution.

You did a fantastic job with most of that post, but I can't let this go, it's too important.

Your faulty analogy is why so many misunderstand evolution, thinking that it occurs to a single organism within it's lifespan, rather than across many generations with minimal differences between each one.

The big challenge here is explaining that one species doesn't "turn" into another as if by magic. When that is understood, the next challenge is to explain that one species doesn't give birth to a completely different organism in just one generation.

I think your analogy with aging obfuscates this lesson.

[–] Kevinology_Rises 8 years ago

You did a fantastic job with most of that post, but I can't let this go, it's too important.

Your faulty analogy is why so many misunderstand evolution, thinking that it occurs to a single organism within it's lifespan, rather than across many generations with minimal differences between each one.

Are you sure about that? I was under the impression that it does occur to a single organism within its lifespan, to my knowledge it's happening as we speak to every organism (just like aging) and never actually stops. We won't see visible changes within its lifespan the way we would aging, but the comparison was one referring to the concept of change over time that cannot be witnessed with the naked eye as it's happening. It doesn't really matter about the length of time or the degree of change, that's the mistake those who greatly misunderstand evolution often make when distinguishing between so-called "micro" and "macro" evolution. If you accept that minimal changes over a small period of time can occur then logically it follows that larger changes over longer periods of time would also be possible. The fault is not necessarily with my analogy but with the individual failing to make what most would perceive as a simple inference.

The big challenge here is explaining that one species doesn't "turn" into another as if by magic.

Nothing about the aging analogy suggests it does, since we don't wake up one morning and magically look like we're 70 years old, it's a gradual process and although it takes less time for the changes to appear, it's still not something we can perceive in the mirror as it's happening which is something those who oppose evolution think we should be able to do.

When that is understood, the next challenge is to explain that one species doesn't give birth to a completely different organism in just one generation.

I think your analogy with aging obfuscates this lesson.

Okay, well I disagree, but I'm willing to listen to a better analogy if you have one.

"I have no idea what "hammer time" is. Or how it differs from regular time."

[–] Auntneice7 10 years ago

The Bible fits just fine with evolution theory.

As a believer, SedateProf, oughtn't it to be the other way around??? Priorities, man. God first. Anything or anyone else, later on. God doesn't lie. Man does.

What's more, if every single Christian on the face of the earth believed this lie, that does not make it true. A lie is a lie is a lie. If it is a lie today, it will be a lie tomorrow, no matter what high, exalted human being on earth buys into it.

If God hasn't said it's true, it isn't.

You say the Bible fits just fine with evolutionary theory. I'd like to see how you came to that conclusion.

I think another important question you need to ask yourself, SedateProf is "Which do I hold more respect for? The Bible, God's Word, or the science book, written by man" Priorities.

I know I come off as a very naive and simplistic person who is a "science denier". Well, as I said previously, I'm not a science denier. Not insofar as the science is something that can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt or question. I know enough science to save your life if you stop breathing or your heart stops beating. Because THAT science is proven.

But here's the thing. I have something that no science worshipper can provide. I have breath in my lungs and am cancer free from a cancer that no doctor, to date, will claim responsibility for healing me of. People with far less advancement in their cancers than I had are in the grave and here I am, nearly 20 years later, alive and well and cancer free. Science didn't cure me. Science only took the tumors out. It didn't keep them from coming back, as they should have. Science isn't the reason that every single time I visit a doctor I haven't previously met and give him or her my history and physical, their eyes nearly bulge out of their heads when they see my medical records and hear my story. Science didn't do that.

So you'll have to pardon me if I refuse to bow at the altar of man-made religion (science). I will rely on the knowledge I have to practice my art/skill/craft and have great respect for the science that makes sense. But I will never see the logic in what I've heard called a "fairy tale for adults". Big Bang, evolution, ape-to-man "science". Can't buy it. It does not jibe with God's Word to man. It denies God's Word to man. It will never have my "faith".

[–] Kevinology_Rises 8 years ago

As a believer, SedateProf, oughtn't it to be the other way around??? Priorities, man. God first. Anything or anyone else, later on. God doesn't lie. Man does.

How exactly would you know if God was a liar? Really all you have is his word, no? And if he claims to be a loving, forgiving deity and you witness the sheer amount of injustice occurring in the world independent of human behaviour, surely that suggests he either doesn't exist or is in fact lying.

What's more, if every single Christian on the face of the earth believed this lie, that does not make it true. A lie is a lie is a lie. If it is a lie today, it will be a lie tomorrow, no matter what high, exalted human being on earth buys into it.

Couldn't that exact same statement be applied to Christianity? Even if everyone on the face of the earth believed it, it wouldn't make it true? That'd be argumentum ad populum. That's what's great about evolution, it's supported by overwhelming evidence, it doesn't require belief to strengthen it.

If God hasn't said it's true, it isn't.

So when God says you can be morally justified in beating your slave almost to the point of death like in Exodus 21, we're to assume this is true, yes?

I think another important question you need to ask yourself, SedateProf is "Which do I hold more respect for? The Bible, God's Word, or the science book, written by man" Priorities.

If you can't prove that the bible was written by a deity or dictated by one, then why should you hold respect for it? It could just as easily be, and most likely is, a book written by man as well. Primitive men, in fact, with outdated morals.

I know I come off as a very naive and simplistic person who is a "science denier". Well, as I said previously, I'm not a science denier. Not insofar as the science is something that can be proven beyond the shadow of a doubt or question. I know enough science to save your life if you stop breathing or your heart stops beating. Because THAT science is proven.

And so is evolution, that's why it's a scientific theory. You know, like the theory of gravitation or germ theory.

But here's the thing. I have something that no science worshipper can provide. I have breath in my lungs and am cancer free from a cancer that no doctor, to date, will claim responsibility for healing me of. People with far less advancement in their cancers than I had are in the grave and here I am, nearly 20 years later, alive and well and cancer free. Science didn't cure me. Science only took the tumors out. It didn't keep them from coming back, as they should have. Science isn't the reason that every single time I visit a doctor I haven't previously met and give him or her my history and physical, their eyes nearly bulge out of their heads when they see my medical records and hear my story. Science didn't do that.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is here... you just admitted science can save your life, but you're angry because it didn't cure your cancer? That somehow makes science in general less worthy of praise than your deity who - if he existed - would've been responsible for giving you cancer in the first place? You essentially believe that you're living by the grace of God, I assume? Meaning you believe you're more special than the... let's say, countless children who have died of excruciating illnesses like bone cancer for inexplicable reasons. Science hasn't cured them either of course, but I didn't see your god lifting a finger to do anything about it, if anything he'd be directly responsible. Funnily enough, I don't see your deity regenerating limbs for people either, yet science is out there creating prosthetic limbs for people all the time, implants and surgery that cures blind and deaf people, computer chips that enable brains to function better in the mentally impaired, the list goes on. And you're upset because you, one individual, happened to survive for an indefinite amount of time without the help of science? How much more self-absorbed can you be?

So you'll have to pardon me if I refuse to bow at the altar of man-made religion (science).

No I won't have to pardon you, in fact I outright refuse to, for referring to science as a "religion". How dare you diminish the accomplishments of generations of people, working day and night to improve quality of life for countless people, purely because you didn't receive the outcome you desired for your own illness? At least they actually tried to help you, where's your gratitude, lad?

I will rely on the knowledge I have to practice my art/skill/craft and have great respect for the science that makes sense. But I will never see the logic in what I've heard called a "fairy tale for adults". Big Bang, evolution, ape-to-man "science". Can't buy it. It does not jibe with God's Word to man. It denies God's Word to man. It will never have my "faith".

If it doesn't make sense to you, then it's because you don't understand science. If you do, then provide some credible arguments against evolution that don't rely on "my magic sky genie didn't tell me it was true 2000 years ago". If that's all you have, then you're on a sinking ship.

"I have no idea what "hammer time" is. Or how it differs from regular time."

[–] Kevinology_Rises 8 years ago

Actually it doesn't, evolution contradicts the bible directly and presents a pretty big problem for Christians who consider Genesis to be the literal, accurate account of creation. For those who consider it to be metaphorical, then original sin would also be metaphorical which means Jesus would have no reason to save people from their sins, ergo it opens a fairly large can of worms. I completely understand why so many Christians are up in arms about evolution and don't want it taught, it's a huge threat to religion like most, you know... facts... are.

"I have no idea what "hammer time" is. Or how it differs from regular time."

[–] rami-gilneas 10 years ago

First I thought that most creationists must be Poes.

But after I watched some videos of Ken Ham, Ray Comfort, Kent Hovind and Sye Ten Bruggencate... it got very hard to tell the difference between real creationists and people who just pretend to be crazy. ;)