Drum solos are fine ... for about 15 seconds then they get tiresome and repetitive. Maybe some exceptions for certain asian music, but never with a snare set.
This movie was about Sadism and Masochism each in their own way grasping for the ember of genius.
I agree it dragged (no pun intended ;-) a bit too long at the end and became uncomfortably tedious when he started going into spastic convulsions and the slow tap-tap interlude. Here you have a capacity crowd at Carnegie Hall packed with socialites, patrons of the arts, and industry moguls. I almost imagined at some point people grumbling and walking out. Why are we paying top dollar to watch some fiery young kid showboat for nine minutes? Sure it's the climactic finish, but still a bit too overdone those last few minutes. Otherwise mostly loved the movie.
shareHere you have a capacity crowd at Carnegie Hall packed with socialites, patrons of the arts, and industry moguls. I almost imagined at some point people grumbling and walking out.
That other guy has obviously never been to a concert. If you really like music, it never drags, it never "needs" to end. But to be honest I was expecting a marvelous transition to Whiplash. But the solo was sublime. I watched it with my brother and we were stood silent with our mouths wide open halfway through.
shareI agree with the OP. 15 seconds is like the maximum a drum solo should ever last because with anything longer, you simply can't hear the original music and only experience someone showing off. But that's just my opinion. Yours is equally valid.
shareFifteen seconds is a bit short. Guys like Bill Bruford and Carl Palmer (or Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa), can pull off a decent solo that lasts a lot longer than 15 seconds. But I'm not sure anyone but a concert pianist could pull off a solo that long, for basically one song. It's just too long. But I liked the intensity and that they tried to pull it off. It's sort of fascinating in that way.
I'm not a woman much less Deanna Durbin, but the old-time glam-shot appeals to me.
Yeah. I expected that marvelous transition, as well. Think an opportunity was missed, there, but still...
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Guys, I couldn't disagree with you anymore on this point. I thought the ending was absolute perfection. First, you have the set up: Fletcher get's Andrew to join his band, for the sole purpose of getting him on stage; the biggest stage of his life. He then ambushes him with a song that he doesn't know and doesn't have sheet music for. Just before beginning the song, he reveals that he knows it was him who got him sacked from the conservatory.
It's the perfect (believable) revenge scenario... but, it's also an opportunity. In the film, Fletcher repeatedly recounts (although inaccurately) a story about the great Charlie Parker, before he became the legend we know him as now. After a poor performance, Fletcher tells us, Jo Jones hurls a cymbal at Parker's head, nearly decapitating him. He doesn't hit him, but he does get everyone laughing, justifiably embarrassing the young musician. He storms off the stage, but instead of being discouraged, he comes back a year later and performs one of the greatest drum solos of all time.
Here, we have Andrew, ridiculed and embarrassed in what Fletcher calls an "avant garde" performance. He leaves the stage, ready to toss his sticks into the ocean. His dad beckons him to come with him, but he promptly turns on his heel and marches right back out to the stage. At first, we just think he's there to stick it to Fletcher. He cuts him off as he's introducing the next song and launches right into a different one. He counts in the bassist and Fletcher has no recourse but to go along, shocked.
As the song progresses, even Fletcher is impressed with Andrews abilities. By the close of the song, he is back in Andrews corner, satisfied not only that he had found his Charlie Parker, but rather that HE had made him, somewhat fulfilling a lifelong mission of his. But, that's not the end. Andrew isn't just satisfied with sticking it to Fletcher and establishing himself. He launches into a solo, after Fletcher had cut the rest of the band. It is uncomfortable and awkward.
As the viewer I wasn't sure if I was seeing this kid go off of the deep end, into the abyss, or what... He continues to play. The camera does not move from him for several minutes, until Fletcher breaks into his field of sight, seemingly beckoning him back to reality, but he's not going crazy, he's just in his zone. He tells Fletcher that he'll count him in and continues his dizzying solo. It continues and for a moment I get even more uncomfortable. This solo has to be legendary, or he is just another showboat kid who wants attention. Andrew delivers. The riffs get faster and more complicated. It was like John Bonham playing Moby Dick (I mean, in that moment, I was mesmerized). So was Fletcher. When he finally sees whats going on, he gets involved. When they slow the tempo to a snails pace, then in perfect synchronicity pick it back up for the grand finale, my heart was beating through my chest and I nearly stood up and applauded in my empty living room.
Andrew finally understood that even though Fletcher's methods were dangerous, for the right student, it might just be the only thing that could push them to the next level. He just found that next level and that drum solo was beautifully appropriate, both musically and in length. Just my opinion.
**Post Edit: In my haste whilst writing this novel, I misquoted the Charlie Parker story. As a few have pointed out, he was a saxophonist and came back a year later to deliver one of the greatest sax solos... at least that's how Fletcher recalls it. That may or may not be historically accurate.
I'm not a jazz head (although I did take a class in college and have a much deeper appreciation for it), so take my .02 for what it is. For me, a solo should hold the composition's beat/style, not necessarily the tempo. In my opinion, he did it well for the first 2 minutes or so. Then he goes on a tirade, bringing the tempo up, even dropping a cymbal (sorry if that's not the correct word for it). Even to this point, I felt it was a very strong solo.
He then goes into the down tempo on the snare. I'm still good at this point. It's working out really well. But when he gets back uptempo, it just becomes a "how fast can I start hitting *beep* and it seems (to me, a non-drummer) almost all technicality is lost for a moment. This is the part that I have a problem with the solo.
He gets me back into it after this though when he finally gets back on the snare.
So maybe for me, the solo could have been maybe 30 seconds shorter, but it wasn't bad.
Listen: everyone isn't into jazz. Calling people ignorant because they don't like what you do is beyond ridiculous. But we all understand the importance of the scene. We are merely talking about personal preference of the music. Yes, the solo itself isn't important but the message of the solo is. We get it. We also felt it. It can just be a little too much for most non-jazz people.
Listen, I appreciate your response and respect your opinion, but I have to say, I didn't call anyone ignorant. I didn't call anyone anything, actually. I just stated that I disagree with the OP and stated why (at too great a length, admittedly). In response to your last point, I don't agree with toning down a scene or any art in order to tailor it to the audience. I thought the beauty of the scene was that it didn't do that. You say that the scene might be "too much for non-jazz people," but why should that alter the scene in any way? This film might have gotten myriad critical praise, but let's be honest, this was a niche film for a particular audience, or at least that was the way it was intended, and that drum solo was supposed to illicit myriad responses from different people. It did.
We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every *beep* there is an American trying to get out
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Sorry i didnt mean to say it to you personally, just read a lot of comments calling people ignorant.
I dont think i said it should be toned down. If i did its not what i meant, it was late when i typed my response.
I thought it was a great scene. I can just understand where the op is coming from.
Sorry i didnt mean to say it to you personally, just read a lot of comments calling people ignorant.
I dont think i said it should be toned down. If i did its not what i meant, it was late when i typed my response.
I just want to point out that no one is arguing the importance of the scene.
shareToo true, but I'm saying that the drum solo was the crux of that important scene. In my opinion the scene succeeded because of the length and impact of that solo, so that is my argument against the idea that the solo was too long. I'm saying that the scene would not be as impactful and powerful if it wasn't that long.
We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every *beep* there is an American trying to get out
You hit the nail on the head! Couldn't agree more!
It's only after we've lost everything that we're free to do anything.
I agree with you to an extent that the solo maybe did not sound completely optimal once it got to the part where he sped up and played as fast as he could(I think everything up to that was perfect in every way), but I appreciate it from a cinematic viewpoint rather than a musical viewpoint. He was showing Fletcher that he could play perfectly at the incredibly fast tempo that he was attempting to perfect in the classroom. He never got a chance to perform the year before because of his bus and the car accident. The final scene was him proving how well he could play and obviously proving the whole "Charlie Parker" thing.
shareWell the 2 things you mentioned about the "down tempo" and "uptempo" are referring directly to other parts of the movie. I think the way those solo elements were done were more for thematic reasons than musical.
The opening of the film starts with the drummer practicing a rudiment called a "long roll" where you start very slow, speed up very fast to a roll, and then usually slow down again. In the opening, he does not slow down. Perhaps this is symbolic of his determination.
In the drum solo, he starts from the opening faster solo and then goes to the snare drum and performs the fast to slow part of the long roll rudiment, and then he speeds back up. So I guess it sort of brings some balance to the film.
Then when he does speed back up, you'll notice he's nailing the technique he had been shown practicing on the cymbal several times earlier in his practice room.
So the solo was great, but the "down tempo" thing might be a bit silly to include in a solo designed for purely musical reasons.
thanks for blowing the end of the movie for me davey
shareUmm, I guess I really have to question why you'd be reading a thread about the end of a movie if you haven't seen it yet... Also, my post was super long. Why did you read all of it? Anyway, sorry. I've updated my original post with a <Spoiler Alert> at the beginning. The movie is still very much worth a view.
We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every *beep* there is an American trying to get out
I wholeheartedly agree with your summary of the end of this heart pumping, drum banging story. I also appreciate your reasoned, logical reply to the above referenced op. After reading many of the posts on a wide variety of web sites it appears that some writers are looking for an opening to go negative. I mean why would a person peruse a thread dealing with the "final" anything if they intended to see it for themselves.
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I absolutely agree with uhrdavid. And as to the other posts: I used to play the drums, was never specifically into jazz, but i loved the solo.
shareagree 110%, the drum solo was epic. If you're a fan of drums then you would have no problem with the length of drum solo. Actually I can't even believe we're talking about it.
sharelol - great post golfguy.
I am not a drummer, but I love music, and appreciate all skill on instruments, and I was in awe of the solo.
It went on for a while, and every bit of it was great. I'm sure the audience there were loving it too. Andrew went from never working again to probably having all kinds of jobs lined up after that performance.
Wow, I never knew that story about Charlie Parker, a saxophonists, performed one of the greatest drum solos of all time! :)
shareSorry, I was typing a novel up there... I meant to say sax. Jo Jo was the drummer and hurled a cymbal at Parker... though I guess that's not really how the story played out irl.
We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every *beep* there is an American trying to get out
uhrdavid - I completely appreciate and agree with everything you said. Having been an occasional and unversed jazz enthusiast, I want to add one thing (and I I am curious if any others from my background had noticed the same;) "true" drummers work their ass off on the most cumbersome of all known instruments.
In rock, drums are pretty much just a beat (although there are, of course, exceptions.) The same goes for country and hip hop. Someone who can successfully control and manipulate the mishmash of contraptions that comprise a drum set in a way like he did in the film is amazing.
The old phrase "blood, sweat, and tears" is earned by people who can turn a collection of pots and pans into something like we witnessed at the end of Whiplash.
"I do not like mixing up moralities and mathematics."
Churchill
btw, Charlie Parker did not come back and perform one of the "greatest drum solos of all time." Charlie Parker was a saxophonist
shareThis. Is exactly everything I wanted to say myself. Thank you.
shareBrilliant !!!! Thank you for summoning it up so perfectly !!!
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he comes back a year later and performs one of the greatest drum solos of all time.
absolute perfection!
I actually didn't follow the Charlie Parker story, but as you explained, they exactly reproduced that scenario. Yet another huge thing that had to happen during this solo, besides the billion other things that got neatly tied up in this brilliant finale!
It must have hugely exciting to develop that into the chosen ending.
Someone's at the door
I agree with every single sentence you wrote.
But then again, the Sunn O))) concert I experienced some weeks ago was the best thing I ever saw and heard in my entire life, so I'm definitely not that person who thinks a 10-minute drumsolo is too long.
A solo should always tell a story, and I don't give a *beep* if it's a short story or a damn novel - as long as the musician manages to keep the narrative of the solo.
Kind of off-topic, but did you ever consider writing a book? I was stunned by how good your text was. Like the drum solo, your text gave me chills.
shareI know this is 6 years old, but uhrdavid NAILS IT! I am a musician myself and the way you described the end, the build up and the amazing climax had me cheering in my own empty living room while watching this. Absolute perfection.
shareI think it is an incredible climax.
Really delivers.
Open the pod bay doors, HAL.
http://www.imdb.com/list/ls008200422/
Agreed.
shareDitto
shareI think it is an incredible climax.
Really delivers.
I agree, especially with what Mr Fletcher put him through, it was an awesome 'Hows that?' moment. Long but awesome, definitely a brilliant film! :)
shareI agree, especially with what Mr Fletcher put him through, it was an awesome 'Hows that?' moment. Long but awesome, definitely a brilliant film! :)
I thought it was a great ending. It wasn't to do with the drumming, it was amazing to see the revenge of Fletcher followed by Andrew finally "stepping up" and the look on his Dad's face was a masterstroke. That ending probably sounded crap on paper, but the cinematography and acting made it work.
shareI couldn't agree more Mr. Anderson.
shareAgreed with this 100%. incredible climax
shareI think it was too short. I could hear it all day long. The moment he starts playing Whiplash, I knew what was going to happen, and when he started it, I just smiled.
I guess this movie tells me a lot because of who I am, but I understand how some people might not find it interesting.
The last song in the film was Caravan, not Whiplash. "I'll cue you in. Caravan!"
shareI was recently privy to a percussion set by a soloist at a museum in KC (I say privy because I didn't stick around to listen very long, but could overhear while I was in different sections). I only stuck around long enough to watch him play a xylophone piece and a snare drum piece. I was momentarily fascinated because I had no idea there was such a thing as a snare solo (besides a drum roll), but I really couldn't handle it for very long. The acoustics were great, but there was a small crowd seated very close to him and it seemed like something more to be endured than enjoyed.
sharethat whooshing sound is the point going right over your empty head. Why are kids today so ADHD?
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no, all of you idiots are culturally *beep* in the head because of the radio and the fact that your parents didn't inform you that you should never listen to the radio when you were 4 years old.
99 percent of the world has no idea about anything
one example is radiohead is the best band ever and 99 percent of the world has doesn't even know that
another example is autechre
Radiohead are one of the most well known alternative rock groups out there. Go to any torrent site, and their albums are in the all time top 10. "In Rainbows" was massive, and "OK Computer" was unavoidable.
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