MovieChat Forums > Dirty Wars (2013) Discussion > This film wins the award for most dishon...

This film wins the award for most dishonest title ever.


EVERY war is dirty. There is no such thing as a war without widespread misery, destruction of life on large scale, and innocent victim. Every war is cruel and barbaric.

Jeremy Scahill and the millions who think like him either don’t understand this or are willfully ignoring this inconvenient truth.

Historically-speaking, this is one of the “cleaner” wars we have fought, which makes the outrage all the more absurd. From Sherman’s March To The Sea to strategic bombing to Agent Orange to the support of murder squads in Latin America America has a long history of using morally questionable measures to win conflicts. But then the US is only doing what any victorious military has done.


People would be better of reading or taking a class in military history than watching documentaries like this. Documentaries like this, while a beneficial for starting a conversation on war and governmental secrecy, really fail to place into context the decisions being made and why. It’s easy to criticize killing when you have no responsibility for millions of lives, when you have little knowledge of the threats, and when you possess limited knowledge of law enforcement and military capabilities.

If you really want to understand why the US is doing what it is doing than you should read books on radical Islam, military tactics, and American foreign policy by people who are experts in those areas. Jeremy Scahilll is not an expert, but a journalist with an agenda. A simplistic, intrinsically dishonest agenda that is designed to appeal to the American too lazy to actually research the subject of war themselves.

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Good thing we've got you to set the record straight. That we've got Jeremy Scahill and a handful of other journalists out there that actually does some critical journalism with regards to american foreign policy is outrages. It simply isn't enough that pretty much the entire main-stream media is bending backwards not to find any fault with terrorizing and killing innocent people in the middle east and Africa. Thank you!
I mean, who is Scahill to actually travel to the places and speak to the victims? Better to stay put in DC or wherever like the rest of them and regurgitate Obamas declarations of how very few victims there are and how perfect the precision of the strikes are.
Oh, and yeah, Obama is the real victim here! I mean the agony he must feel everyday for having the responsibility for the safety of millions of people. Bless him!

I thought Scahill was aware of the fact that there isn't anything such as a clean war. Actually, I thought that was the very purpose of the title: that contrary to popular perception and the way it is portayed in the main stream media - as a clean war - it may be clean to americans, but that it is indeed very "dirty" elsewhere. But what do I know.

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By the way, I've got a very simple question for you. The bombing is usually justified on the grounds that it has to be done to prevent the potential killing of american people, right? Well, does that reasoning apply to, say, Pakistanis? There is nothing "potential" about the killing of Pakistanis, we've got a clear record of that happening. So would it be okay for Pakistan to bomb America?

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By the same reasoning, the Pakistanis CAN USE the same argument to kill all US citizens!

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A more interesting question is "Why have chosen Pakistan as an ally instead of India?"

The Taliban has always had a stronghold in the NW province and has always been supported by a significant portion of Pakistani Intelligence.

We move out of Afghanistan, the Taliban moves right back in. So we've now been droning our "ally" for several yrs...

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OP some of what you say makes sense. the problem is that in the past, we the people, knew for the most part what our govt. was doing. we were more informed. we cared more; we were more involved. today, we're not involved and we're not informed. we're constantly being lied to. the avg. person has no idea what the govt. is doing abroad and also at home. this film attempts to inform people, that's all.

i disagree with you that you think all wars are dirty. even during war there are rules. we used to follow some of those rules albeit we've done some pretty heinous things in the past and we're still doing them. today, we follow no rules. you act as if we've done bad things in the past but somehow today we're a better behaved nation?

also, and most important, all of this is completely unnecessary. the war on terror is a for profit lie that is being utilized for empire expansion, resource confiscation, military build up, the trampling of our constitution and the stripping of our civil liberties.

it's the same as the war on drugs. they are both bogus wars that can never be won and in fact are never meant to be won. they are meant to be ongoing because they feed and nourish the power of the state and special interests such as the military industrial complex.

your argument, that people should not listen to jeremy, that they should only listen to so called "experts" is garbage. it's an attempt to draw people away from the real truth. it's an appeal to authority or experts, which is an attempt to make people not think for themselves, rather to continue trusting a criminal, lying, deceiving govt. that routinely murders, kills and destroys innocent people around the world, including here in the US.

don't be a sucker and think you're somehow on the winning team, that it's okay because it doesn't affect you, that you somehow benefit from all this. you don't.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." MLK

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You have got a point, but forgot to look at the trees by themselves; even though you got a good look at the forest.

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also, and most important, all of this is completely unnecessary. the war on terror is a for profit lie that is being utilized for empire expansion, resource confiscation, military build up, the trampling of our constitution and the stripping of our civil liberties.
And eight journalists have been locked up by the Obama administration -- more than in the nation's entire history -- by way of the espionage act. In addition thanks to the new expanded "Patriot" act we now assassinate "enemies" on the field, without trials. Which is ccomforting, I mean the whole presumption of innocence thing was so 1990s.


The cat's in the bag, and the bag's in the river

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1- Since you acknowledge that "all wars are dirty", the title "dirty wars" can't logically be dishonest. It doesn't matter much: had the title been "the cleaner wars", the msg would remain the same. It might actually have been catchier, and therefore attract more viewers.

2- "America has long history of using morally questionable measures": true, but (a) Does it justify perpetuating such measures (b) We're talking about a war that cannot be won bc you can't win a war on concepts (be them terror, drugs, poverty etc) but it can be argued that such a war can and is being lost if the blowback we create results in more attacks which wouldn't have occurred if we'd taken some other course of action.
History has shown that sometimes those consequences occur many decades later (ex: toppling the Iranian gov in the 50s resulted in the hostage crisis in 1979, and in the current nuclear tensions with Iran).

3- Scahill is doing his job as an investigative reporter, unlike many others. He doesn't pretend to be an expert (academic or military). His agenda is obvious. So what?

4- "Documentaries like this, while a beneficial for starting a conversation on war and governmental secrecy, really fail to place into context the decisions being made and why": isn't it the crucial msg? We can't place it into context precisely bc of the arguably unnecessary secrecy: where are the checks and balances on the executive branch which is accumulating more and more powers (regardless of party affiliations)?
If Goering etc got a trial, why can't we do the same for terrorists? And wouldn't it be in our best interest?

5- You can't realistically expect voters to read up on military history, considering that most couldn't place Aden on a map ...
As for radical Islam, it's an interesting topic, but the key question is "how does one become radicalized?".

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[deleted]

Got a good look at the trees, now what do you see from the forest?

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Pretty much the same thing!

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Now that some time has passed, unfortunately, I see ISIS.
Would ISIS exist had we not toppled Iraq despite the fact that it had NOTHING to do with 9/11?

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Exactly... Thank You!

The point that Bush and Cheney cynically used the real fear, anger, and desire for payback as it relates to 9/11... to gain acquiescence from the American people concerning going to war in Afghanistan and Iraq cannot be over-stated.

The fact that they lied our country into war... and in our name have killed conservatively in Iraq more than 250,000 people, men - women - children - civilians... A people who (as you so noted) had absolutely nothing to do with the events of Sept. 11th 2001, pisses me off beyond words... That they did that in my name angers me to the marrow of my being!

Those who perpetrated these military endeavors are guilty in my opinion of war crimes, many times over!

It always amazes me where history starts for some people when trying to
argue current events.

bryanmillsfist, states:
"Every war is dirty. There is no such thing as a war without widespread misery, destruction of life on large scale, and innocent victim. Every war is cruel and barbaric. Jeremy Scahill and the millions who think like him either don’t understand this or are willfully ignoring this inconvenient truth."

bryanmillsfist, I'm sorry, but you're sophomoric post is obviously attempting to infer things that just aint so: "Willfully ignoring" Ignoring what... The fact that simply put: War is Hell?
Jeremy Scahill comes nowhere near suggesting that it's not.

To the contrary.. he focuses on two specific wars of aggression we should have never launched.
He investigates, finds hidden truths, brings previously unknown information to the U.S. public... and does so at great risk to self.

bryanmillsfist, To my ears you sound like a Bush/Cheney shill. Trying to make our actions in Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia and Iraq seem commonplace, palatable, nothing out of the ordinary....
and that their blowing up the region had little if anything to do with the chaos that today grips that part of the world... But bryanmillsfist, nothing could be further from the truth.


Eric V.
Sacramento, CA. USA

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Is this war being fought for the freedoms of the American People?
No, becuase the American People are losing more of their rights. and freedoms everyday this war has gone on.
You fail to see that this War is being fought for PROFIT and what is worse this PROFIT is not going to the American people but only for a select few yet it cost American's money and more than that American lives!
This movie is ocreect, this war being fought in the name of AMericans YET its does not benefit Americans but only a select few.
Think about that!

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From my American (US) relatives, I get the impression that the USA economy is in REAL BAD SHAPE right now. Lots of unemployed people, lots of people losing their houses, people starving, and so on.

ON GOD'S SAKE, how do you, USA citizens, forgive and even allow such things to happen anywhere else when more and more US citizens are actually dying because of hunger, disease, inclement weather, suicides and unemployment?

I mean, things aint SILVER LININGS PLAYBOOK for you and you allow your POPULAR-VOTE ELECTED GOVERNORS to spend BILLIONS of USD of tax-payers money in "killing random citizens" or "potential terrorists on a list" all over the globe?

This World is VERY TWISTED AS IT IS, but definetely you set the example not to follow!

If I were US citizen, I would be in capitol hill telling congressmen to give me money for feeding the starving children right at home. With the money spent in one drone or missile you can pretty much feed a lot of families in the US for about a year.

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I don't think the title is intended to compare this war in general or in the abstract. The title comes at a period where the White House and media report that this war is very efficient with strategic ground presence and narrow drone strikes. This image was a rebranding to separate it from Bush's disastrous handling. But despite any rebranding or the shift toward drone strikes - this war is anything but cleaner for the very reasons you state that no war can be "clean."

As for the second half of your post, that is all very interesting and would make for an interesting documentary. But it isn't the point of THIS documentary.

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OP, you make a decent point, except for the fact that the title of thsi movie is "dirty WARS" not "dirty WAR."

Hence the implication would seem to be that THIS war is just as dirty as all the others have been, (not clean, precise and noble, as the US government tries to pretend) - which is exactly the point you're arguing.

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Kakkua asked, "The bombing is usually justified on the grounds that it has to be done to prevent the potential killing of american people, right? Well, does that reasoning apply to, say, Pakistanis? There is nothing "potential" about the killing of Pakistanis, we've got a clear record of that happening. So would it be okay for Pakistan to bomb America?"

Good point.


Also: The USA used this same justification before dropping nuclear bombs on Japan, when in fact our own military intelligence had told the president that Japan was about to surrender, no matter what. Our military just wanted to play with their new toy, and Truman wanted to send a message to Germany not to mess with us. So we killed millions of innocent japanese citizens, in the most horrific way possible.

This is a simple historical fact, overwhelmingly backed up by official documents and transcripts.

Why would anything be different today?

GO USA !

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The World at the time of the Pacific conflict was in a estate of "END IT NOW BY ALL MEANS POSSIBLE"! The USA got away with it because in that particular context HAD TO BE DONE. The problem was to forgive, forget and not to set corrective actions to prevent another such an act at the time. So now, it seemed that everyone (I mean every country) had given the USA a free pass to use whatever measures needed at whatever time they pleased to use them.

It is nice to be the one SHOOTING, not the one GETTING SHOT AT. American films are pretty good at brainwashing people giving them that kind of perspective OF CONQUEROR instead of being CONQUERED. But when you have been the one getting shot at and have survided, TRUST ME you would think twice before pulling the trigger when you are given free chance to hold the loaded gun in your hand.

Taking a life, even in self defense, corrupts the soul and it is the worst curse, sin and damnation you can bring upon your own blood.

So, here it is... The USA, the most advanced and civilized country on a planet called Earth is also the one that behaves more like primitive apes (no ape kills except for food or power) or even like a primitive virus: KILLS EVERYTHING IN ITS PATH!

So, to say hurra for the USA is to say hurray to murder; cold-blood, random assasination of my brothers in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Yemen, Japan, Germany, Mexico, Korea, Vietman and wherever they are, I think I can keep my disgraceful, dishonorable Colombian citizenship anytime before becoming a USA citizen.

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Taking a life, even in self defense, corrupts the soul and it is the worst curse, sin and damnation you can bring upon your own blood.


I am an atheist who rejects superstition and all forms of obscurantism, yet i totally agree with that statement.

People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs

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Japan wasn't about to surrender. We bombed one city, asked for a surrender, then bombed another one, and asked for a surrender. He really did not want to surrender. Their soldiers were ordered to fight to the death and often ask to fly suicide missions. I've never seen any documents to show that Japan was ready to surrender.

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"Japan wasn't about to surrender. We bombed one city, asked for a surrender, then bombed another one, and asked for a surrender. He really did not want to surrender. Their soldiers were ordered to fight to the death and often ask to fly suicide missions. I've never seen any documents to show that Japan was ready to surrender"

You don't know what you're talking about.

The evidence is overwhelming. There are even official transcripts of what Truman was told by the military intelligence.

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Can you point me to those "official transcripts". The Japanese soldiers were killed by their superiors for any surrender or retreat and they would take their own lives before surrender, so I'm not buying your story without proof. My grandfather fought in Japan during WW2 and he was pretty convincing when he explained how they would die before surrender.

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Your grandfather is not a reliable historical source. It is an acknowledged fact that the Japanese were about to surrender after the Soviet declaration of war (the Allies had been holding out for unconditional surrender, the Japanese wanted to retain the Emperor to make sure he was not tried as a war criminal - the conditional surrender that was eventually allowed).

Here are some links, but you know. Google is your friend.


http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/29/the_bomb_didnt_beat_j apan_nuclear_world_war_ii

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2011/08/07/why_did_japa n_surrender/

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Thank you for setting him straight.

"My grandfather said..." 



People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs

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Japan wasn't about to surrender. We bombed one city, asked for a surrender, then bombed another one, and asked for a surrender. He really did not want to surrender. Their soldiers were ordered to fight to the death and often ask to fly suicide missions. I've never seen any documents to show that Japan was ready to surrender.


Congratulations on winning the Ignorance Star Prize of the Year. USA bombed one city? One city alone? Are you kidding? Wtf do they teach you at school in the states? How can you be so ignorant to the fact Curtis LeMay spent all summer of '45 bombing Japan with incendiary bombs prior to nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Think how common wooden homes were in Japan back then. Do you even know how LeMay was?

From the brilliant documentary "The Fog of War: Eleven Lessons from the Life of Robert S. McNamara:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOCYcgOnWUM


--
A picture with a smile - and perhaps, a tear.

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people like you encourage me to celebrate 9/11 every year, but i don't.

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I got kind of cheerful too at 9/11. However, after seeing those horrible images on TV, I asked for forgiveness in prayer as I realized I had pleased myself in the suffering of others, who in the end could have been my family (I have family in the USA, not in NY). Then I remembered that YHWH made mankind brothers of every other and to one another. So, yeah... even if "THE AMERICANS NEEDED A LESSON", by no means TAKING THE LIVES OF HUMAN BEINGS or even a SINGLE ONE.

Whenever you are hit at one cheek, put the other one and back again until the offender gets tired of slapping you.... then they learn that the IDEAL OF PEACE is MUCH STRONGER than the ACTIONS OF VIOLENCE!

So, yeah... PLEASE NO HATE! MAKE PEACE, MAKE LOTS OF LOVE (Sex is overrated) AND MAKE NO WAR!

There is this phrase from The Patience Stone: "Those who do not know to make love, make war!". I have got this feeling that those in power in the USA cannot please their spouses!

I mean no offense by the way!

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YOU ARE AS DUMB AS AN DONKEY

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