MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (2019) Discussion > Why is a new hope touted as original?

Why is a new hope touted as original?


I notice the force awakens gets heat for being cliche but a new hope does not. Why is that? A new hope is a ripoff of hidden fortress. The original Star Wars trilogy is a ripoff of the hidden fortress.

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Maybe but at least it isn’t copying the story of a previous installment of the same franchise.

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Many sequels do this. People just fail to see it. I find it funny tfa gets flak where as other sequels don't.

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Agreed. To me, it's no different than You Only Live Twice and The Spy Who Loved Me. And The Spy Who Loved me is often referred to as one of the best Bond films....

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Yep my point exactly. Cliche only gets thrown at a movie when people dislike it. If it's a movie they enjoy it won't get mentioned.

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Many sequels DO get that flak.

Star Wars is just bigger than most movie franchises.

Also, most critics hailed TFA as the greatest movie of all time, and that led to people who thought it was just a rip off of the first one to voice their opinions in disagreement with the critics who worshipped it.

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Critics praised it. Nowhere was it touted as the best film of all time by the majority of critics.

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Ok, let's not get too literal here. The point I'm making is, critics really loved it.

Sorry, I forgot in 2019 every word is taken literally.

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Yep they did like it. Thing is though why is it you can't enjoy TFA without being labeled as a shill by the people who dislike it? They want to voice their opinion but when you voice something to the contrary it makes you stupid.

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Well, I don't think it's everybody. That's just a generalization. I thought the film was entertaining, but I wouldn't say I liked it, but if people did, that's fine.

I didn't think it was anything more than a rehash, but it did have one of the most shocking moments I've seen in a Star Wars film with Han Solo's big exit. That was completely shocking even though you could sense something like that was coming.

I just don't like the newer characters in the sequels, and I think they dropped the ball horribly with how they handled the original characters, so much so that I have no interest in seeing the new Star Wars in theaters, or even at all. I don't care how it all ends. All of the characters I care about are gone. Good luck in the new film Lando, haha. I may rent it at some point though.

The main thing is, this is the internet, and everything is exaggerated. I wouldn't take anything too personally on here.

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There are only 7 stories in the world.


Can you provide links to anyone "touting New Hope as original?"

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And all 7 come from the Epic of Gilgamesh. Good ole Gilgy, he da bomb!

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Many films with space dogs whaling and a his co-pilot understanding everything he says while flying into a moon sized space station that just blew up a planet

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The Force Awakens doesn't get heat for being cliche or retelling old stories, it gets heat for going beat-for-beat through the story of its own prequel. Every story borrows or repackages from previous tales, that's just storytelling.

Recontexualising stories (moving King Lear to feudal Japan as in Ran, for instance) often revitalises old stories, making them feel fresh again as seen from fresh eyes. But The Force Awakens has the same context. It's still the Star Wars universe, several of the same characters are involved, and they haven't even changed minor details (the plans for the superweapon are inside the droid, the main Jedi character comes from a desert planet and yearns for adventure, etc.)

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This is just ridiculous. Star Wars was based in many different sources: Hidden Fortress, Valerian (the comic), Flash Gordon (the TV serial), Campbell's Hero of Thousand Faces and traditional folktales, the pulp space opera stories, his own movie THX1138, to name a few. Kurosawa was one of the sources, but one among many.

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Yes, I was wondering why a Kurosawa film was so full of aliens, spaceships, mythology and characters with quasi-religious magic powers.

Makes sense now.

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I know I was also wondering where a storm trooper went rogue in a new hope. Also where the main hero was specifically interrogated by the main villain.

Makes sense now.

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We're not saying ANH and TFA are absolutely identical bar the characters, but there IS a lot of similarity - something like 70-80%.

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Terminator 2 is the same as the original. Just this time it has a bigger budget for nicer effects. Why is it that gets praised when there is maybe a 20% difference in that film? Where as TFA gets constant flak? I can tell you why because people pick and choose when they want the term recycled or cliche to apply. If they like the film it is perfectly fine to recycle and remake the same thing if they dislike it then it is not cool. Disliking TFA does not bother me I just find a lot of the reasons to be ignorant.

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Simple.

Terminator 2 is one of the finest Sci-Fi Action movies ever put to screen and The Force Awakens is crap.

Basically that is why.

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So recycling is fine as long as the movie is good then? Is that the point you are making?

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No point being made, no inner meaning, no thoughtful debate

Just pointing out one is a great film and one is crap.

We get it, u love Disney Star Wars, good for you, still doesn't take away the fact that The Force Awakens is crap.

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In your opinion it is crap. I find it funny that is all you need to do in order to make someone take you seriously. So what if I was to say TFA is better than Terminator 2? Someone asks why and I say simple TFA is great and Terminator 2 is crap. Okay people convinced case closed.

TFA is crap to you I disagree with that.

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i'm not here to be taken seriously. I'm here just to disagree with everything you say just like you are disagreeing with everyone else for disliking TFA

Frankly i couldnt care less but you obviously do. You have spent this entire thread arguing the fact regardless of what people say

If you are seriously trying to say that TFA is better than Terminator then i'm sorry but you have zero taste in films.

But you keep going arguing your point about similar movies, nitpick away.

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If I think TFA is better than Terminator I have zero taste. Good to know that unless you agree with someone else's view you have bad taste. FYI I do not think TFA is better than Terminator or Terminator 2 but I just find that notion to be ignorant. Unless someone agrees with my view they hae bad taste in films is basically what you just said.

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Have you even watched Hidden Fortress? The similarities are few. The only thing that really looks like a direct lift is C3PO and R2. There is little else that is the same.

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Yep and there are far more similarities than that man.

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Lol have you even seen Hidden Fortress? ANH is hardly a ripoff of it.

Get that you are butthurt and offended because rey is in tfa and not everyone loves it.

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Um yes I have. A new hope is a ripoff of it. I do not care if someone dislikes TFA or Rey after all everyone is entitled to their view. However do not call someone a shill simply because they happen to enjoy TFA.

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Just more false equivalence in order to 'soften' the criticism of TFA ... But you can't negate it so ...

Next you're going to try and convince us Luke was a Mary Sue because he won.

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A New Hope was inspired by multiple films. Hidden Fortress was just one of many. Lucas managed to take all these ideas and made them his own. It's similar to how Quentin Tarantino makes a movie.

The Force Awakens is almost scene for scene a remake of A New Hope. What's worse is that TFA is supposed to be a sequel. Most people don't want a sequel that is a remake of the original. The idea is to move the story forward, not backwards.

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I agree, AP, but unfortunately, and bafflingly, many millions like the OP LOVED TFA, even though they KNEW it was nearly identical to ANH. Nostalgia can really limit creativity, a lot of the time.

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Big surprise anyone who dislikes the Disney films you agree with. And it's the same old excuse oh wah it's a new hope again. Then a new hope is trash since it's hidden fortress I am assuming right?

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The thing is, ANH has a compelling and believable plot, whereas TFA is a highly coincidental mass of plotholes that doesn't make sense when you really THINK about it, as Mauler has: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAOuSMsnsV4

Just watch the video and re-evaluate TFA, MovieFanatic505.

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No I found Hidden Fortress to be a much better film than a New Hope. I told you I find the OT to be overrated. Lord of the Rings takes a giant crap all over Star Wars. It is your opinion that it is convincing and compelling nothing more. I do not think that it is.

Since TFA is considered recycled trash so is a new Hope. Only completely original films are good. If it is not original then it is by default recycled trash. No exceptions.

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Just watch Mauler's video and realise what a fool you're making of yourself. And if you don't, I will just laugh at everything you say about Star Wars. I mean, the ONLY Star Wars you like is the Sequel Trilogy! LMFAO!

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Oh yeah laugh at someone for liking a movie you don't. You need someone else's video to make your point for you? Funny I thought you could make your points stand on your own. Apparently not...

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He explains it far better than I ever could. The point is, you only like Disney Star Wars, which most people don't. Do you like being contrary to the norm?

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Most people do not? Provide the data you are using to determine this. Imdb which is the largest movie user based website in the world indicates that TFA overall is well received. It received great scores on Rottentomatoes and Metacritic. Even on both of those the audience score was good for it as well. So I want you back up the statement you just made about most people disliking it. I will wait.

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Paid shills for TFA, and stupid people who'll accept any old recycled crap.

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I am waiting for that data. You made a statement now it is time to back it up.

I guess Disney forgot to mail off the check for the live action remakes of Aladdin, Dumbo, and Lion King huh?Considering all those got poor reception. SMH! Made for stupid people? Wow someone is stupid for enjoying something you don't good to know.

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You'll be waiting for that data forever. No, I don't have to back it up.

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So you made an empty statement then? So you expect someone to believe you when you have nothing to back it up? Your credibility is shot! I backed up every claim I made. You won't do the same. Which is why I put not stock in what people like you have to say.

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How can you ONLY like Disney Star Wars and NOTHING that came before? How old are you?

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You lost this debate bud. Piss off.

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Hahaha! You swore first. YOU'VE lost the debate by failing to defend why you like TFA so much.

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Oh no who was it that made an empty statement they could not back up? Oh yeah it was you. You failed to answer my question. Did Disney forget to mail off checks for the live action Dumbo, Aladdin and Lion King?

I asked for the data that supported your claim. You will not back it up because you can't. Which indicates you are full of it.

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I don't care if loser people like TFA. I don't, and in my mind, that's what matters.

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Then start off by saying that. Do not make empty statements! It makes you look ignorant! Also fyi someone is not a loser because they enjoy a film you don't.

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OK, mistake on my part.

Why won't you tell me how old you are? Maybe you're in your 20s or something. People in their late 40s tend to like the OT most, and people in their 30s tend to like the PT most, so I can only guess you must be younger than those ages.

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Age is irrelevant. If I like Hidden Fortress shouldn't that indicate I am older than 30?

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That would make sense. But I wonder why you don't like the first six Star Wars movies?

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The prequel trilogy should be obvious. I like the OT I just find them overrated.

The prequels have been slammed repeatedly by the majority. I am not going to retread old ground.

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Fair enough.

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I find it annoying that you say people are stupid for enjoying these films. Yet you enjoy the prequels. I never said you were stupid for enjoying those yet I am stupid for enjoying the Disney Star Wars hmm.

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Maybe I should clarify my opinion of the Prequels.

I find them a mixed bag:
TPM is the most... childish of the lot of them, and yet, when mixed with the most politics, is tonally jarring. I don't like the plot of AOTC much, and the love story is tedious, but I like the battle at the climax. And ROTS is, I consider, the best of the three in many ways. For all three, however, the dialogue seems rather stiff and formal, and Lucas is not really a director.

But for all three, I like the early CGI and the sound design, not to mention the music and general world-building.

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All fine and dandy. I can agree to an extent with some of that. I personally think episode 2 is the worst among that trilogy. Episode 1 as bad as it was did have the Darth Maul fight scene. Which was without a doubt actually cool.

Episode 2 had a disappointing lightsaber duel and a awful romance that reminded me a bad soap opera or something you would see on a CW show. Then Annakin was such a whiny emo brat and written and performed terribly. It's not fair! Yeah so Vader there.

Episode 3 while I am not a fan I can agree was the best in this trilogy. Still not a fan of Annakin or Padme's relationship or the fact that we only see Vader for a lame cameo.

Anyhow point is do not insult someone for preferring something you dislike. I get not liking the Disney films I really do. Thing is I think they are better than the prequels. And the truth is I do not think anyone is ever going to accept anything without complaining after Empire Strikes back. It is why I do not like Star Wars fans.

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And the truth is I do not think anyone is ever going to accept anything without complaining after Empire Strikes back. It is why I do not like Star Wars fans.


Agreed.

In fact, I was seriously thinking just the other day of throwing away all of my Star Wars-related DVDs and everything, just because of this endless bickering between fans - I'm sick of it. But it IS still popular with the public.

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I can agree with you there completely. Honestly I wish Star Wars would just completely go away and never return.

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Do you know how many sequels are basically the same film made over again? Lets look at one of the most beloved sequels of all time. Terminator 2.

Terminator 2 is basically a remake of the first with a bigger budget. Except now Arnold is playing the role of Reese. People will then bring up differences but there are differences in TFA as well. No storm trooper went rogue in a new hope. Terminator 2 is considered one of the best sequels ever so no I disagree with that notion.

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Outside of a Terminator going back in time and someone else form the future coming back to stop said Terminator, the two movies have different plots, different beats, different tones, mostly different characters, and they are even in different sub-genres.

Additionally, Terminator 2 continued the story. Sarah Conner went from the screaming "final girl" of the first movie to a hardened badass. She had character growth. The heroes and villains changed strategies to keep in line with the changing mythos. Nothing was undone from the previous movie. Meanwhile, TFA turned Han Solo from a military general starting a relationship with Leia and regressed him back to a cocky smuggler. Then there's the fact that the Empire came back for no apparent reason.

But yes, there are a lot of sequels out there that are basically remakes of the original. And they are generally considered shit for that reason.

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Nope not true. Toy Story 3 is the same as 2 yet it gets praised. All 3 Indiana Jones movies are the same yet get praised.

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I've never seen Toy Story 3. I have seen all the Indiana Jones movies, though. They are very much not the same movie and since you also claim Terminator 1 and 2 are the same, I imagine Toy Story 2 and 3 are quite different.

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Indiana Jones movies are not the same you sure about that?

Indy finds an artifact and eventually loses it. Raiders The Idol, Temple the remains of Nurhaci, Crusade The Cross of Cornado.

Indy meets woman. Raiders Marion, Temple Willie, Crusade Elsa

Creepy crawling thing. Raiders Snakes, Temple Bugs, Crusade Rats

Fight with the supporting villain. Raiders Airplane fight, Temple Conveyor Belt fight, Crusade Tank fight.

Vehicle chase in the third act. Raiders truck chase, Temple Mine Cart chase, Crusade Tank chase.

Artifact kills the villain. Raiders the arc of the covenant, Temple the stones, Crusade the grail.

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"Indy finds an artifact and eventually loses it. Raiders The Idol, Temple the remains of Nurhaci, Crusade The Cross of Cornado. "

That is the basic premise of the franchise. It's like saying all Star Wars movies are the same because they all feature space battles and the Force..

"Indy meets woman. Raiders Marion, Temple Willie, Crusade Elsa"

Those are called love interests and they exist in most movies.

"Creepy crawling thing. Raiders Snakes, Temple Bugs, Crusade Rats "

A lot of movies have animals, too.

"Fight with the supporting villain. Raiders Airplane fight, Temple Conveyor Belt fight, Crusade Tank fight."

Fight scenes are common in action movies, yes.

"Vehicle chase in the third act. Raiders truck chase, Temple Mine Cart chase, Crusade Tank chase."

... As are chase scenes.

"Artifact kills the villain. Raiders the arc of the covenant, Temple the stones, Crusade the grail."

I'll give you the first and third one, there. The Stones don't really kill the bad guy in Temple.

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The series is about artifacts there is no requirement for him to lose it. How about he struggled to ever obtain it?

A lot do have animals but the creepy crawlers are an obstacle to overcome in every film. Thus being formulaic.

Notice I said fight with supporting villain. Not just fight scenes.

Yep chases but they all are in the third act of each film. The dark knight did not end with a vehicle chase the dark knight rises did. So this must mean this trilogy is less formulaic than indiana Jones trilogy?

The stones basically did but semantics the grail and the covenant did.

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"The series is about artifacts there is no requirement for him to lose it. How about he struggled to ever obtain it."

He spends half of the first movie trying to get to the Arc before the Nazis. It's mostly a race. In the third, he and his dad don't find the Grail until the last 20 or so minutes of the film. The second one is the only one where he gets it fairly early on and then loses it soon after.

"A lot do.have animals but the creepy crawlers are an obstacle to overcome in every film. Thus being formulaic."

Overcoming creepy crawlies is pretty common. Even Star Wars movies have a lot of that going on. Also, being formulaic is not the same thing as being a remake. All Star Wars movies follow a general formula. They don't all rip each other off except TFA.

"Notice I said fight with supporting villain. Not just fight scenes."

Yeah, and most action movies have fights with villains. I'm trying to remember an action movie where the hero doesn't do that.

"Yep chases but they all are in the third act of each film. The dark knight did not end with a vehicle chase the dark knight rises did."

I remember the cart chase in Temple happening earlier, but oh well. Again, this is part of a formula. All Star Wars movies have a space battle and light saber duel at the end. If Indy was in a tank chase in all three movies, then that's different.

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Remember though in each he loses a artifact that he had obtained. The Idol, The Remains, and the grail.

Um they do rip each other off. Remember when people moaned and groaned about another death star in Return of the Jedi?

There are fights in all action movies but the manor in which it is done is the same. Indy fights supporting bad guy gets beat down then music kicks in and punches the guy real hard.

So simply by changing the vehicle that makes it different? Interesting then how come a storm trooper going rogue never gets brought up in TFA? How about the villain being defeated? How about the ending where the hero finds the mentor?

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"Remember though in each he loses a artifact that he had obtained. The Idol, The Remains, and the grail."

The Grail was lost during the earthquake. It's not like it was stolen.

"Um they do rip each other off. Remember when people moaned and groaned about another death star in Return of the Jedi?"

The second Death Star in ROTJ is the only similarity to ANH, though. The movies have different plots, different beats, different arcs, different set pieces etc.

"There are fights in all action movies but the manor in which it is done is the same. Indy fights supporting bad guy gets beat down then music kicks in and punches the guy real hard."

Yeah, the underdog hero winning a fight against a big strong guy. That is very, very common. We see that in a few James Bond movies, a couple of Diehards. A scene like this happens in 300. Also, Troy. The list goes on.

"So simply by changing the vehicle that makes it different?"

Yes, if you change something, it becomes different. That's how changing things works.

"Interesting then how come a storm trooper going rogue never gets brought up in TFA?"

It is the one thing TFA does differently, that's true.

"How about the villain being defeated?"

You mean like how the evil guy in a black helmet and cloak is removed from the battle due to the actions of the hotshot pilot just before the Death Star is destroyed? The same sequence also involving the orphan from a desert planet who has an important lineage finally unlocking Force powers to save the day? Hm, am I talking about TFA or ANH? Spoiler alert: I'm talking about both movies.

"How about the ending where the hero finds the mentor?"

Actually, Han Solo plays the Obi-Wan in TFA. He tells the orphan from the desert planet about the Force while on the Millennium Falcon while transporting stolen information on a R2 unit. Later said mentor takes the heroes to the Death Star and sacrifices himself to the evil guy in the helmet and cloak to buy the heroes some time. Oh, and the mentor/bad guy have a father/son relationship.

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Still though people moaned and groaned about the death star in return of the Jedi.

See this is what I don't get. You say oh the hero beating up the big strong guy is common, therefore basically implying it excuses it. Yes but we are talking about recycling. We are also talking about beats in the same series. You know how many people call last crusade a ripoff of raiders? I care about if the movie is done well not if it's cliche. Do You know how many original films truly exist? Because tfa is cliche and trash so is a new hope since it's basically hidden fortress.

Okay then don't get mad when people list minor changes in tfa. Stay consistent. Changing a vehicle is like changing the topping of a cake and claiming it's a different cake. Different topping but the base is the same. So then in that case Jaku is different than Tatooine because the name is different. Therefore they changed it.

I wasn't aware luke had a lightsaber duel with Vader in a new hope.

So luke saw Yoda at the end of a new hope? The same way Rey saw luke at the end of tfa.

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"Still though people moaned and groaned about the death star in return of the Jedi."

Okay.

"See this is what I don't get. You say oh the hero beating up the big strong guy is common, therefore basically implying it excuses it. Yes but we are talking about recycling. We are also talking about beats in the same series. You know how many people call last crusade a ripoff of raiders? I care about if the movie is done well not if it's cliche. Do You know how many original films truly exist? Because tfa is cliche and trash so is a new hope since it's basically hidden fortress."

Your argument is getting inconsistent. Are we talking about movies ripping each other off or cliches?

"Okay then don't get mad when people list minor changes in tfa. Stay consistent. Changing a vehicle is like changing the topping of a cake and claiming it's a different cake. Different topping but the base is the same. So then in that case Jaku is different than Tatooine because the name is different. Therefore they changed it."

My response was more about the silliness of your question. Changing something does make something different than what it was previously. That's pretty much the definition of the word.

"I wasn't aware luke had a lightsaber duel with Vader in a new hope."

Didn't say he did.

"So luke saw Yoda at the end of a new hope? The same way Rey saw luke at the end of tfa."

The final 5 seconds of TFA is different than the final 5 seconds of ANH. Bravo.

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Movies ripping each other off. Whenever I bring up that Star Wars a New Hope ripped off the Hidden Fortress it gets thrown away because people have not seen it or well it is a different film series. Thus implying it only applies when people want it to.

Okay you may have me here. So that means that Jaku is different from Tatooine then right?

I never said you said Luke had a duel with the main villain, I was pointing out a difference since you say it is identical to a New Hope. See people do not want to acknowledge any differences.

A storm trooper turning rogue, the main hero interacting with the villain and being captured, the lightsaber duel happening between the hero and the villain, the hero defeating the villain, No princess here, the villain killing a member of his own family all not in a new hope.

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"Movies ripping each other off. Whenever I bring up that Star Wars a New Hope ripped off the Hidden Fortress it gets thrown away because people have not seen it or well it is a different film series. Thus implying it only applies when people want it to."

ANH didn't rip-off Hidden Fortress. George Lucas has been upfront about all of his inspirations for Star Wars which includes Westerns, WWII docs, and Flash Gordon. Yes, that includes Hidden Fortress and other samurai flicks as well. I've seen Hidden Fortress, btw. There is a general similarity but they are still entirely different movies. For starters, they belong to entirely different genres.

"So that means that Jaku is different from Tatooine then right?"

For your analogy to make sense, Indy would have to be in different tanks or carts for his chase scenes as opposed to entirely different vehicles. Jakku and Tatooine are identical places to the point where I'm surprised JJ Abrams even bothered to come up with a different name for Jakku. It'd be one thing if they were both desert planets but there was some defining trait to separate Jakku from Tatooine, but there isn't.

"I never said you said Luke had a duel with the main villain, I was pointing out a difference since you say it is identical to a New Hope. See people do not want to acknowledge any differences."

I have acknowledged plenty of differences. They're mostly minor.

"A storm trooper turning rogue, the main hero interacting with the villain and being captured, the lightsaber duel happening between the hero and the villain, the hero defeating the villain, No princess here, the villain killing a member of his own family all not in a new hope."

By contrast, I could write a five page essay involving everything that is similar.

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It did ripoff hidden fortress. Also putting it in a different genre doesn't change themes.

Notice I said vehicle chase in the third act of each.

A storm trooper going rogue is not minor as he is pivotal to the plot.

Remember a simple change makes it different. Since its name is different not the same.

Doesn't matter if you can. I pointed out differences therefore it stops the point of It being called a complete copy. Are things copied yep but as I said terminator 2 recycled as did the Indy films.

Honestly I love that people hate these new films it makes me like them even more. Anything after Empire gets constant flak. It makes me chuckle when people claimed it destroyed their childhood. The OT is overrated in my book. Influential yep but lord of the rings owns that trilogy.

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You do not understand the difference between a rip-off and an influence. I'm even beginning to wonder if you've actually seen Hidden Fortress.

Yes, Finn going rogue is minor since it wa smsotly forgotten about after the first ten minutes or so of the movie.

And no, changing a name does not make a huge amount of difference.

As for Terminator 2, I already proved it was different from the first. The same goes with the Indy flicks. If you love the sequels, go ahead but you should probably try to develop better arguments as to why they don't suck.

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I've seen that flick. I watch older films all the time. The opening is so similar.

Um Finn was in the entire film not the only the first 10 minutes. Nice try. He was pivotal to the plot from start to finish. No he wasn't the main Jedi but he is still a pivotal character.

Then changing a vehicle doesn't make a huge amount of difference.

No you didn't. You just said it was not and I proved the Indy flicks are the same film made over and over. You just like them therefore it doesn't apply. Terminator 2 is almost identical to the first. Want me to come up with a list like I did for Indy for Terminator 2?

I don't have to come up any argument as to why the sequels are good. That's what I find funny about you Star Wars fans. You think people owe you an explanation. I just am willing to doesn't mean I have to.


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The Holy Grail didn’t kill the villain, it was one of the false cups.

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Oh yeah. Good point. Although I think moviefanatic will still argue otherwise. He's doing a lot of reaching in this thread. I hope he stretched first.

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"All 3 Indiana Jones movies are the same"

The more you talk, the more credibility you lose.

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I know how dare I disagree with you.

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Just ignore the OP, he's on a mission to say the exact opposite of whatever I say. I don't think he truly believes the nonsense he's spewing out. It's a very immature and infantile tactic which I completely agree to.

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Nah I just love shutting people down. People can't handle that the majority think TFA is better than the prequels. The data backs me up and it burns people up.

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It seems to me your getting your ass handed to you here but hey you do you.

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Nah you just are blind to any other view. You only stick to the ignorant one and live in denial.

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