IMO I still hate TFA the most

"Unlike the films that followed Jar Jar Abrams could have told any story he wanted"

Exactly, Johnson might have told a shit story too; but he was limited by the film he was following; JJ literally had the universe at his hand and could have done anything; and a cheap soulless clone of ANH is what he gave.

Yes, TFA is such an anomaly; unlike other bad popcorn movies that everyone admits are bad; TFA gets this pedestal like treatment like it is some great accomplishment and only TLJ messed it all up. I have maintained for years; that after TFA there was literally nowhere to go. Johnson either had to follow up TFA with an ESB clone (because that is what was set up) or do something completely different but still fit in with what was set up. Basically it was an impossible task, and I get the impression Johnson didn't even want to try; so he just did his own thing; which was still terrible. I think you meant to say that "it couldn't have been salvaged"? Yes I agree, the trilogy was not started on a bad leg, it was started by a film that cut both the feet off.

This is the key, TFA undermines the entire saga; but it does it covertly; TROS is the overt undermining by bringing back Palpatine and redeeming Kylo; thus making the sequel trilogy just a do over of the OT. Seriously nothing new was added or expanded on and the story ends in literally the same place the OT did; the Empire defeated, Vader/Kylo dead but redeemed; Luke/Rey having a new outlook toward the future to "pass on what they learned', the rebels celebrating the victory, even Finn is force sensitive is basically Leia (untrained force potential character.) Seriously the whole thing was just a crap do over; And TFA is the abomination that made it so.

Why it gets such a pass I will never understand; I guess people don't like to admit they were conned into liking something that was shit so they double down on saying it was not shit. The power of emotions, marketing and nostalgia; I guess.

I gave up on that stupid Big Bang Theory show years ago, when Sheldon bashed Babylon 5. I knew then that it would be yet another unfunny US sitcom, but this time with more nerds than usual.

I don't know if 'liked more' is how I feel about TLJ. Hated less might be more accurate; I didn't feel so shocked and 'bitch' slapped by it. if that makes sense.

Well Since you and other TFA defenders have never once offered a single counter argument to any of my points I listed above; instead you deflect and insult; I can only assume you and other are full of yourselves and fall into the category of delusional fans. You got conned; you know it but don't want to admit it so double down and say 'well it was a good sell at first'. That is how con artist work; they make you feel it was a good deal at first.

If you can't argue at least drop the condescending attitude. "is it now a full time job of yours to tell us how you feel about TFA?" This is totally condescending, you are being an ass. And yet when I call you one you will try to turn it on me and say I am insulting you and then threaten to (or actually) report me. If you have an argument then for christ sake make one. don't just be a dick about it.

"still not going to influence the fact that its the best of the trilogy as voted by fans and critics"

Appeal to popularity, this is not an argument. Try taking just one of my points and telling me how it is wrong. I made 11 of them; certainly you can pick the weakest point and make a case. But nope instead immediately regressed to sophistry and being a prick. You are very close to being added to my ignore list. I don't want to even see posts from people that don't actually want to have a conversation but instead want to insult their way to superiority. get over yourself. I am allowed to discuss and comment on whatever I want. IF you disagree make an argument for why, instead of condescending non sequitur and other fallacies.

Exactly; this is a good point. Disney had a goal of 'undoing' the OT and making their own version of it. You get this sense that the 'new' staff of Lucasfilm seem to have a real animus towards the OT and the OT fans.

That is a good point; one of the reasons that TFA got such praise is because the "George Lucas raped our childhood" crowd were venomous against the PT (which I hate too but not like this). Disney and JJ marketed TFA as a 'return to what you love' and away from the Prequels. People decided they were going to love it no matter what before they saw it. I think that is the big problem. Han as a smuggler again is as much a slap in the face as Luke being a loser that wants to die; why people don't think so and argue that it fits his character must have missed every bit of his character development in the OT.

No he wouldn't; the point of one of his last lines of dialogue about not getting in the way between Luke and Leia is the sign that he was no longer a selfish character but an honorable one that would make sacrifices. But you can't do a 'rehash' of ANH without Han being a smuggler; but did they have to make him an incompetent one that was like lost, confused and senile. and in addition to that; have him 'lose' the millennium falcon?

Exactly; I don't give Johnson a free pass. He made a bad film as well; but he was also extremely limited of what he could do after TFA, he was backed into a corner narratively speaking and seemed to just say 'f' it' and did what he felt like. That wouldn't be such a big problem if he didn't deny it and go after the fans that criticized him. besides giving him creative liberty when he clearily doesn't care much of franchise continuity (based on some of his recent comments) was a mistake. He should not have have been told he could do whatever he wanted. There should have been a little more control from Lucasfilm.

But all one has to do is think about every possible direction the story could have gone after TFA; I thought about and saw so many speculations and none of them sounded like they would be good. I could not think of one and from the comments no one could. That tells you that the Story was shoved into a corner (in your words) and there was very little room to grew. TFA did that; TLJ didn't do that it is just the results of what happens when a story has no creative or unique direction and all these crazy restriction. Think about how much freedom they could have had if they set it 100 years after ROTJ and didn't have to try to 'force' in the OT characters.

IMO TFA is easily the worst & deserves most of the blame for the trilogy sucking because it laid the shoddy groundwork for what was to follow and we all saw the results of that. Most everything wrong with the Di$ney Trilogy leads back to TFA.

I second Threadkiller's post; once TFA was done the next 2 films were limited to following up the broken lore and disastrous plots covered under the guise of mystery boxes. TFA could have done anything with the story; but TLJ had to follow up so many empty plots and make sense of things like the force behaving in ways that never fit in with the series before. There was just no way for TLJ to recover the story and be a good entertaining action movie at the same time. It would have to have so much explanation and exposition scenes it would be a bore and a chore to watch; sure it might have 'recovered' the trilogy enough for part 3 to be good; but part 2 would be a nightmare.

I get your point that all were bad; but to continue your analogy; TFA is like having an 'encounter' that gave you syphilis and genital warts (there are some really crappy symptoms you notice right away) but it also gave you HIV and you didn't know it. By the time you get to TLJ it morphed to AIDS.