Genuine question - If it's awful, will the blogosphere admit it?


I feel by this point, and especially since the argument has become "Only White supremacists dislike Star Wars", that JJA could release a looping mpeg of Harvey Weinstein masturbating as episode IX and the blue tick brigade will still cream themselves regardless.

reply

I'm pretty sure the argument is if the only reason you don't like Star Wars is because you think Rey should have been a male or you think Finn should have been white, then you are being racist, sexist or both.

Not liking the story or what they did with the characters is one thing. Being upset that there aren't enough white males is another.

reply

That's a straw man big enough to keep Summerisle in Apples for the next 100 years. In all the ridiculous amount of time I've spent on these boards and on IMDB before that I haven't seen a single poster say they wish Rey was male or that Finn should have been white. Though saying that I've seen a few say that Finn should have been of Maori descent so maybe it's the NZ nationalists we need to watch out for?

reply

You don't remember the InternationalClique guy on IMDB? His exact argument was that the lead needed to be a white male. Lol.

Granted, he was literally the only person I've actually seen say that. But there was at least one person on IMDB saying that.

reply

I don't remember him, no. In that case I stand corrected!

reply

You don't have to say things straight out in order to heavily imply it. Saying that the lead shouldn't be a female is the same as saying Rey should be male. How could it possibly mean anything else? Also, complaining that there aren't enough white males would be the same as complaining that there are too many minorities.

reply

It seems to me that you are """"implying"""" that free speech should be outlawed and that only what you think should be the law of the land. You really are a tyrant and probably a racist too. I know you didn't say those things but obviously ... etc etc

SW sucks now and it has everything to do with the writing, not the casting.

reply

Ok, that didn't even make any sense.

"It seems to me that you are """"implying"""" that free speech should be outlawed ... " Huh?!? What did I say that implied that?

"only what you think should be the law of the land." Again, what?!?

"You really are a tyrant and probably a racist too. I know you didn't say those things but obviously ... etc etc"

I'm sorry, but did anything you say have anything at all to do with what I said? There have been tons of posts saying that there weren't enough white males in the movies. How you could possible not see that that is a racist statement is beyond all comprehension.

"SW sucks now and it has everything to do with the writing, not the casting." Well that's a horse of a different color! If that's your reason for not liking the movies, you obviously don't fall into the category the OP is talking about. Why get so bent out of shape?

reply

Merely illustrating absurdity.
Not having to say things to imply them is a pretty thin line of accusation.

reply

Hmm, that's a very strange response. I had this crazy idea that you might actually answer my questions or explain your opinion, but ok. I'll just have to accept the fact that you really don't have anything to say. You just want to be able to complain.

reply

But this is just another Straw Man. Show me a post where someone has said the lead 'shouldn't be female' or that there aren't enough white males. Even if you can find one - which I very much doubt - there will at least 1000 more posts of people criticising Rey and Finn for legitimate reasons (and Hux and Kylo and all the other shitty characters who can't be defended by slinging accusations of racism and misogyny around).

reply

I'm not sure what Hux and Kylo have to do with anything.

Calling Rey a Mary Sue but having no problem with how much Luke or Anakin were able to do in their first movies is very sexist. Saying there aren't enough white males is both racist and sexist. Not sure how you can defend that.

reply

There weren't enough white males!

reply

How many is enough? 50% of the cast? 70% of the cast?

reply

Whelp you're either an idiot or a troll.

Either way: I'm out.

reply

I find it very sad that you can't disagree with me without insulting me. It completely negates any valid point you may have had.

reply

I'm sorry - I take that back. I genuinely thought you were trying to wind me up but looking at your other posts I can see you're not a troll. I just didn't like that you were saying I was defending racism and sexism, when I so clearly wasn't.

reply

I don’t think you’re defending racism or sexism at all. I do think a fair number of the people who criticize the recent Star Wars movies are dong so simply because they wish more of the characters were white males.

I am honestly interested in hearing other opinions. I know the new movies are far from perfect, but I do really enjoy them.

reply

Calling Rey a Mary Sue but having no problem with how much Luke or Anakin were able to do in their first movies is very sexist.


^ lol, perfect example of a person too obtuse to realize how stupid s/he is. Learn the meaning of writing concepts. Many a straw man is born out of sheer ignorance.

reply

You've used the term "Straw Man" several times. To quote the Princess Bride, "I do not think it means what you think it means."

Explain why you think call Rey Mary Sue but not calling Luke or Anakin a Gary Stu isn't a double standard?

reply

1. Burden of proof would lie with you, not with me.

2. But ok, I'm always for writing education. It's as simple as it is a detailed explanation. First you need to read up what MS-writing is, take the most famous writing site for aspiring writers:
http://www.springhole.net/writing/whatisamarysue.htm

Rey (as written in TFA) falls under several types of MS writing because (i) she gets unwarranted attention by hugs, positions, mission ec (ii) she is better with everything than the pros and (iii) she gets every ability she needs to look good.

So, you claim Luke Rey are basically the same? Let's test that - It's very easy to compare Rey-Lukein their first movies compare because of rehash.

Let's go:

reply

2/4

- Rey understands every languages, including Wookie and droid speak (!) - Luke does not;

- Rey is a formidable fighter beating up thugs and scaring off scavengers away from their loot - Luke is not, he is beaten up several times (by the sand people & in the bar) and is in need of protection and help throughout the movie (Han, Obi Wan);

- Rey is noble and strong; Luke is whiny, reckless and weak; Rey, despite being raised by ruthless scavengers such as Unkar Putt, has developed an superhuman morality compelling her to starve rather than to betray a little droid she just met – Luke treats droids like property/slaves;

- Despite hating guns Rey immediately is an (untrained) formidable marks man hitting everything at a great distance while running away and shooting a stranger’s gun; Rey can even (incredibly) aim with the turret while she is piloting or hit 3 Ties with her first shot - Luke cannot, despite being trained with guns/rifles he is an average shot at best missing many, many shots;

- People and droids follow Rey like puppies, especially BB-8 (who is useless because Rey does all mechanics/engineering and door opening alone) – Luke seems not to have this fascinating effect, his droid R2 tricks him and runs away from him;

- Rey wants to stay home but only leaves for loyalty and compassion for her new friends and destiny - Luke wants to leave home, but stays out of weakness and loyalty (Owen/Beru);

There is more….

reply

Continuation 3/4
- Rey is her own self-employed master and independent – Luke is not, he is Owen's subservient lackey;

- Rey the scavenger is an incredible ace pilot: Without a copilot or any experience with the ship she masterfully pilots the bulky Falcon through an abandoned destroyer and graveyard under fire outmaneuvering trained combat pilots - Luke does not even understand how the cockpit of the MF works ("what's that flashing?");

- While flying alone, Rey performs incredible stunt piloting moves, including aligning the Falcon in midair so that Finn just has to pull the trigger ("How did you do that? - I don't know – That was some flying – It was PERFECT") - Luke however is mocked, derided and not allowed to pilot, despite being set up as a pilot; and even in empty space in his X-Wing Luke needs constant assistance from R2 and other pilots and Han, who sacrifice themselves for him.

- Rey circumvents the security of Starkiller so that the explosive charges can be placed and the SK base be destroyed - Luke has no such abilities, he needs R2 to get saved from the trash compactor;

- Rey saves herself out of captivity, and only does not flee so that the team can blow up Starkiller, without her they would be lost - Luke plan to save Leia is amateurish and Leia takes over the lead when his poorly thought out plan fails miserably;

- Rey is an incredible mechanic and even a brilliant engineer stunning even Han (“I bypassed the compressor”) and despite her starved condition a great climber and spelunker - - Luke does not show such talents;

- Rey can do advanced Jedi Force tricks without training, like telekinesis, mind tricks, mind reading etc - Luke needs training for very basic Force abilities (knowing when to shoot the torpedo), and only reaches Rey's ability level when he is a trained Jedi;

More to come...

reply

Continuation 4/4
- Rey beats the main antagonist (Kylo, Master of the Ren) several times with untrained Force and sword skills - Luke does not even come near the main antagonist (Vader), except for being nearly shot down by him and being saved by others;

- Rey is better with everything and bests everyone at their game (Han, Finn, Kylo, droids etc), even Luke & Poe were partially removed from the script so they cannot steal her spotlight; everybody becomes her cheerleader (Leia, Chewie, Finn etc) - Luke is a undecided zero at the beginning: Han is cooler, Obi is more powerful, Leia his sister is lightyears ahead of him (leader, senator), his friends such as Biggs are ahead of him too;

- Rey is the only hot young girl around with a posh accent - Luke is an average small farmboy, one of many kids, who mostly left him behind already;

- Rey gets a glorification hug for no apparent reason from the VIP Resistance leader (Leia) who she never met before instead of Leia's old friend Chewie or all the returning heroes who Leia leads - Luke does not get any unwarranted hugs but only after he succeeds and after he becomes friends with the huggers (Leia/Han);

- Rey becomes captain of the MF after Han's death, stepping over Chewie who “likes her” and looks at her in an adoring way (like everybody else, the Rebels are even waving her collectively goodbye when she leaves) - Luke does not get any positions and is violently pushed away by Chewie;

- Rey is sent on the most important mission to find Luke, leaving all his friend and family behind her - Luke does not get any solo missions;

- Rey is so important and special that even long lost light sabers and dead VIP masters like Obi Wan and Yoda call out to her - nobody really calls out to Luke;

- Rey is desired by everybody, but she is hard to get: she either friend zones or emasculates the characters who are fascinated by her - Luke does not even get the girl in the end;

Still MORE to come….

reply

Conclusion:

In the end, Rey in TFA gets Han's gun and iconic ship (Falcon), Luke's legacy light saber and R2-droid, and Chewie as a copilot - and she finds MacGuffin-Luke: she is the SOLE HEIR and SAVIOUR of the SW UNIVERSE - Luke gets a medal, but only next to Han, who already is successfully flirting with Luke's wanna-be girlfriend and sister!

And let's not even compare Rey in TLJ vs complete-failure Luke in TESB...Just accept the old saying: You can take the "Rey" out of Ma-Rey Sue, but you will never get the Mary Sue out of Rey.

Double standards, lol, more like facts and writing theory.

reply

That is brilliantly written! And it's all very true! I don't give a shit how many times the "sexist" card is pulled, Rey is a Mary Sue to the max, and that makes it very hard to root for her.

Then again, Disney has shit all over the mythology of Star Wars, and while the movies were entertaining, they robbed us of the original cast sharing any scenes together, and killed off any characters that have kept me interested in this trilogy. I don't even care to see episode 9.

Spoiler alert for the next movie: Rey wins easily...at everything and anything. The end.

I'm still laughing at her knocking down Luke Skywalker in a light saber fight. No way! Sorry. It's enough to buy into her beating the new "ultimate villain" Darth Emo, but they fact that she takes Luke down is laughable.

Oh well, hope everyone enjoys the next movie, because they've lost me. Maybe I'll rent it after it is released on redbox.

reply

Update:

You've used the term "Straw Man" several times. To quote the Princess Bride, "I do not think it means what you think it means."


1. Where did I use it several times? Please provide proper context and evidence so I can respond.

2. The def of the straw man fallacy can be found on any site (btw in your case we deal also with a "personal incredulity" fallacy [check it out] due to your ignorance of the MS trope).

3. Your straw man argument was that you (based on your personal incredulity; cg item 2 above) are calling people sexist for calling Rey a MS but not Luke. Thereby building yourself a convenient misogynist-straw man that you can bash and burn by telling yourself and the world how great you are while avoiding aquainting yourself with the underlying concepts and facts.

4. Now, pray tell, what do you think a straw man is?

reply

Oops, sorry, you weren’t the person who had said straw man earlier. I actually do know those definitions, but that’s neither here nor there.

I did read your above posts, and you bring up some good examples. It’s not quite that simple, though.

Rey learned to speak many languages because she lived and worked at Nima Outpost, which was heavily travelled by pilots from hundreds of planets.

Rey learned to fly ships and shot weapons on a flight simulator she had salvaged (book, not movie, but still canon). I don’t remember ever reading anything about her hating guns, but I’ve only read a couple of books.

You’re using facts about who Rey already was at the beginning of TFA to show that she’s a MS, but isn’t the point of a MS that she didn’t have those qualities at the beginning and suddenly does before the end?

I don’t think it’s accurate to put Kylo Ren in the same league as Darth Vader. Also, when Rey did face him at the end, he was severely wounded by Chewie’s bowcaster (and at least a little bit tired by having to deal with Flynn).

Luke wasn't quite as incompetent as you made him seem. He actually was a decent pilot, even if he didn’t know what “that flashing thing” was.

Leia hugging Rey, the lightsaber calling Rey, her force vision, etc. Those don’t really make her a Mary Sue, so much as they lead the audience to wonder who she is. Is she Luke’s daughter? Is she just strong with the force? What do Han and Leia know that they aren’t telling us. TFA absolutely teases the audience with Han and Leia know more about her than we do and that she does, but TLJ completely went in a different direction. That could be a big continuity problem or something that gets resolved in episode IX. But it doesn’t prove Rey is a Mary Sue.

I really thought you made some interesting points. I don’t agree with everything you said, but that’s the way it goes. I enjoy good discussions, but I’m not interested in insults.

reply

You make some good points Ziggy, but it's not the lack of explanation for Rey's abilities that make her a Mary Sue (though that is yet more bad writing) - even if it's revealed she's a clone of Palpatine, that she was created by the force, or she is Cthulu incarnated, none of that will stop her being a Mary Sue they would just be explaniations for *why* she is a Mary Sue and it's not the 'why is she so powerful' that's the problem it's the effect her power has on the story (and other characters).

She can fly the falcon better than Han ever could - thus diminishing his achievements.
She can speak all languages - thus removing the need for C3PO (or similar character)
She can learn the force instantly - thus diminishing Luke's achievemnts
She rescues herself - thus robbing the other characters of an heroic moment and helping to create that vital group chemestry
She beats Kylo - this robbing their rematch of any chemistry (you see it doesn't matter if he was wounded - she still won, and that's the 'problem')

There are lots of stories written about amazing people that are brilliant at everything. Take James Bond. Bond films are loved because of the enjoyment we get from watching someone who is awesome be awesome. Now drop James Bond into a Mission Impossible film. Suddenly the other team members have nothing to do because JB is already better than them at everything and Ethan Hunt now looks like an amateur in comparison. This is why JB only has very minor recurring characters and isn't part of a team: he doesn't need a team, he IS the team. Same with Superman - the Justice League films where hamstrung because they had to spend 80% of the plot explaining why Superman would even need a team in the first place.

I hope you see my point. It's not Rey power levels that are the problem, it's that they've dropped a maxed out character into the hero's journey/group adventure story line of Star Wars and the result is a total mess.

reply

That is very interesting point you make ... that the character of Rey kind of renders other characters as unnecessarily. I had never though of it that way. That actually makes sense. Thank you.

reply

Glad you think so Ziggy and sorry again for being a bit of an arse above.

reply

No worries :-)

reply

I Know that many of the people who are disappointed with the new movies aren’t being sexist or racist. Some people are, though, and that is quite hateful.

reply

well, MS-writing is not about WHY (story reason) a character is written that way, but HOW the character is written. Explanations as to why the character is so super-awesome and super beloved do not un-make the character being written as a Sue. I can easily give the only "plausible" story-reason why Rey is so super awesome: She is really a Force-goddess incarnate but with amnesia: Everybody must hug and adore her and give her missions, she can do everything untrained and is better at everything than the pros. BUT that does not unmake her a Sue.

You say: "Leia hugging Rey, the lightsaber calling Rey, her force vision, etc. Those don’t really make her a Mary Sue"

Yes, these are textbook MS-writing examples, even more so than Rey's unwarranted abilities: namely by disregarding canon character-backgrounds, lore and story logic so to glorify and highlight the Sue character and her important. I'd say Leia-hugged-first is THE best example to explain MS writing to laymen.

"You’re using facts about who Rey already was at the beginning of TFA to show that she’s a MS, but isn’t the point of a MS that she didn’t have those qualities at the beginning and suddenly does before the end?"

No, not at all. It is about warping the story and in-universe around a character, to give unwarranted spotlight, regardless whether you do it with unwarranted attention, missions, hugs, abilities etc.

reply

"I don’t think it’s accurate to put Kylo Ren in the same league as Darth Vader. Also, when Rey did face him at the end, he was severely wounded by Chewie’s bowcaster (and at least a little bit tired by having to deal with Flynn)."


I don't. Kylo Ren despite being considerably younger than Vader in ANH, was higher in rank already and had more stunning abilities than Vader ever had (Laser freezing, advanced mind reading [Vader could used that when torturing Leia], Force stunning etc).

He as a 29-year male was also in prime physical condition, and the Master of the Ren and trained Jedi, and he STILL got beaten by a half-starved untrained rookie girl, it's absolutely laughable (even TLJ makes fun of that).

The wound is irrelevant in this regard as it (strangely) did not hinder Kylo in the slightest with Force abilities, running and fighting - he even used the wound to amp up aggression and strength. He was unbeatable until Rey had her Force"download", Mary Sue - moment.

PS….If it's any consolation, Rey is just the tip of the ice berg: TFA is a abysmal hack-job of a script, full of fanfic-level writing, plot holes and incongruent storylines and characters. Hell, even the plot is broken: starts out with the Search for Mr Skywalker, but then suddenly stops that and shifts towards the unrelated DeathStar III storyline - and in the last minutes the search-plot is resolved by a deus-ex-machina (R2 conveniently awakening at the right moment to spit out the map nobody expected in Luke's old droid left behind...). It's an embarrassment really. TLJ is Shakespeare compared...

reply

I think the only issue with Finn's color was simply he was a Stormtrooper and the Empire (First Order) didn't seem like an inclusive bunch so when Disney led with that image in the trailer..he had reactions related to what people saw as an inconsistency not that a black man shouldn't be in Star Wars or be a key character. As for Rey, we already had strong female characters in SW, Rey was not breaking any ground here so the primary issue has always been how she was written, not that she IS female.

Now when I say this I am talking about the majority, not the tiny group of troll troublemakers and racist/sexist people that are out there that may toss a comment into the works to cause trouble.

reply

I think the only issue with Finn's color was simply he was a Stormtrooper and the Empire (First Order) didn't seem like an inclusive bunch so when Disney led with that image in the trailer..
Those were all stupid arguments, but I agree that had more to do with a misunderstanding of the lore rather than actual racism on the part of fans.

reply

It’s a visual thing while the Rebels did become more diverse in appearance as the movies went along the Empire stayed distinctly white and male. Even the books I am not sure they ever described any imperial as anything other than white if they bothered at all. In fact at least as far as sexes are concerned it pointed how unusual Admiral Daala was. So one could infer that the bigotry could extend to human variations as well.

As with any film that has an established fan base, any inconsistency is ripe for criticism. Whether that be differences from book, from a previous film, to even silly stuff like James Bonds hair color.

You are right though the empires issues really showed as being more bigoted towards non humans.

reply

It wasn't really an inconsistency though as we'd never seen unmasked Stormtroopers before. All we had were unmasked Clonetroopers and they weren't white either.

reply

It seems unlikely the stormtroopers were different though, clone troopers were not the same as stormtroopers. They were the last remnants of the old republic, much like the non humans that worked with Palpatine there is no reason to believe any clone made the transition to stormtroopers by the time OT starts. There is no reason based on the make up of the Empire to believe the stormtroopers would be a diverse group as opposed to the many, many,many unmasked members of the rest of the military we saw.

SO going from the OT, with PT being a different time period and prior to a full purge of unwanted people from a fledgling Empire, it would be a visual inconsistency. A relatively minor thing in the scheme of things, but still as I said..even the smallest things changed can be big things when there is an already an existing fan base.

reply

Why is it highly unlikely? Lol. We only actually see a few high ranking members of the Empire. The majority of the Empire are masked so we have no idea. One the other hand, the Rebels are all unmasked and their high ranking officers are white as well, with the sole exception of Lando. But the Rebels seem more diverse simply because we see more of them.

It's really a nitpick with no real story basis for it. Especially when the First Order is a new group forged from the remnants of the Empire rather than the Empire itself anyway.

It's a fundamental misunderstanding of the lore.

reply

Because why would the stormtroopers be diverse..and everyone else not..We don't just see a few officers..we see staff through three films, multiple ships, bases and two deathstars..they all did not wear masks. Its really not much of a leap to assume the stormtroopers would follow..its actually more of one to assume they would not follow this. The movie does not have to tell you this when its made plain. Rebels were more diverse from gender aliens and yes while Lando is just one guy he still gives the impression of a diverse group and he was a guy given rank and important mission. Nothing about the Empire showed a diverse group.

So going from OT to the trailer for TFA it is not remotely a stretch to be surprised and see it as an inconsistency..because it is a visual inconsistency with OT films that immediately precede that movie. I am merely stating to pretend there is no basis for that belief is absurd.

But lets just pretend that the Stormtroopers were diverse during OT even though there is no evidence of this during those films. So the impression is no nonwhite human has risen to a level to go without a helmet? That still gives the impression of a certain level of bigotry based on skin color. You can fight for me, but keep that damn helmet on, you don't match.

Its really a not a big deal, in the end the character is the issue not his skin color, which is easily explained away regardless.

reply

It's all a reach. Lol.

reply

I can't tell you why those who dislike Rey feel the way they do. They like to bandy the term "Mary Sue" about, though it has been made clear many times that it doesn't apply to her. It seems they use it almost as a crutch, when they can't express a reason beyond "she's female, and leads are male," for disliking her. They heard someone else say "Rey is a Mary Sue" so they parrot it back, but aren't able to provide "from the source" reasons to back up their dislike. Even your "we've had strong females" point feels false, because before Rey (Leia, Padme, etc.) they were damsels in distress who had spunk, not confident, lead characters.

Those who like the films, myself included, like the way Rey is written. She has a depth of character that the protagonists of the first two trilogies weren't given. There's actually some story going on with her. That isn't an attack on the previous films, at least not the original three. They were written as westerns in space, by and large, and relied on well-known action hero tropes, so we didn't need to delve at all into Luke's psyche or character, or learn anything about him. He was a dorky boy who became a man overnight, and we accepted it because we've seen it on screen a thousand times before. With Rey, we're getting a fully formed, fleshed out, intriguing character, and if you like that, you like that.

With Finn, again, those who dislike him try to dress up their argument, but it comes down to "he's black, and heroes are white." Even what you wrote, and I mean no offense in pointing this out, doesn't make a lot of sense. Because some Americans see black skin as a sign of inferiority, we are to believe that across the entire universe and in all time periods black skin is considered bad? Doesn't it make a lot more sense that to the First Order, and to the rest of the Star Wars universe, seeing a black man is no different than seeing a green man, like Greedo, or anyone else? Why do you immediately jump to "oh, the First Order would obviously be racist, so they needed to cast a white actor in Finn's role?" It feels like grasping to justify a racist sentiment without coming off as racist.

reply

My dear Buffy you are a never ending source of disappointment

Rey is a fully formed fleshed out character? I'm starting to think your entire Moviechat.org persona is satire!

reply

Buffy must be confusing Rey with Jyn Erso, the fully-formed, fleshed-out, very non-Mary Sue, female lead of Rogue One.

reply

Ah you mean the one that no one called a Mary Sue *despite* her uterus? I swear to God Star Wars fans are the worst misogynists on the planet!

reply

Because some Americans see black skin as a sign of inferiority, we are to believe that across the entire universe and in all time periods black skin is considered bad?
The argument at the time was that, since the Empire/First Order were modeled after Nazis, they would never accept black people in their ranks.

But you're right. Racism has never been part of Star Wars. In the Star Wars universe, it doesn't even appear that different races within the human species are even acknowledged.

In the EU, the "racism" aspect of Nazism was replaced by a prejudice against all non-humans for the Empire. Instead of having Aryans as a "master race", humans were the "master species". I think this aspect has been brought back into the new canon as well.

reply

Lol wow you are really reaching here. Racist sentiment lol. Empire basically Nazis, previous OT films established a fairly consistent lack of diversity to this Nazi like group, First Order has all the trappings of the Empire, black stormtrooper inconsistent with what was seen before, thus some criticism that most moved on from years ago. Not remotely the same as saying there shouldn’t be a black character or hero, neither of which is new to Star Wars or that black people are inferior whatever they else you tried to stretch that criticism into.

Basically you are like some people that it boils down too if you don’t like Finn you are racist and if criticize Rey you are sexist.



reply

That isn't even close to what I wrote. I merely responded to the notion that Finn should be played by a white actor because the First Order is obviously racist and wouldn't employ a black man, by pointing out that racism against someone with black skin makes no sense in the Star Wars universe.

reply

I merely responded to the notion that Finn should be played by a white actor because the First Order is obviously racist and wouldn't employ a black man
The First Order is racist? When is that explained? When has race ever been acknowledged or mentioned in Star Wars?

reply

FilmBuff, you are the only human on that planet which still doesnt know that Rey is the worst MarySue ever in movie history! EVER!!! But .... thats only your personal problem. You have been already defeated so many times with your fanatic point of view that noone will waste its time again with you. So long, SJW!

reply

I don't recall anyone ever offering evidence to the contrary. And the fact that you think I'm an SJW tells me how unobservant you are.

reply

Buffy - if you'll scroll up a bit you'll see about 1000 posts by Tristianreloaded where he systematically dismantles the argument that Rey isn't a Mary Sue. Don't pretend you haven't seen his posts (or similar ones in the past).

reply

I haven't, and don't know who he is, but I'll take a look.

In all honesty, I only came in here because I saw the film was trending, and was disappointed to see it was another politically-motivated attack. Contrary to Quint's belief, I have no political or social agenda. I think the SJW philosophy is ludicrous, and abhor the concept of political correctness. That said, I can separate my politics from my movie-watching. One has to do so to enjoy films, as Hollywood loves to cram politics into film.

I've watched the original Star Wars films since they were new. The first came out on my 7th birthday, and I've seen each in the theater and many times more at home, even the god-awful prequels.

Rey is a great character. We've been given deep insight into her psyche, her background, what makes her tick, especially in TFA. I have not yet seen one remotely credible argument that she's a "Mary Sue." Again, I'll look for the poster you mentioned, but I've heard no sensible arguments to this point.

Rey is the Luke of the new trilogy, and I believe we have to approach her, and any character, within the framework of the Star Wars universe. When we look at Luke, beloved though he is, we have to admit a two things:

1. We were given next to nothing in terms of backstory, motivation, psyche, or character development. He existed as a classic Western trope. That's not a knock on him or the films, but it's a fact. Like similar characters, there are moments where he deviates a bit, but the same can be said for, say, John Wayne's characters. They were classic, predictable stereotypes that had moments of interesting deviation, but regardless of how recycled they were, they remain fascinating, awesome characters for the most part.

2. Luke is our blueprint for "how does a person new to the Force adapt to it," and any criticisms levied at Rey for too quickly mastering the Force are ignoring Luke doing likewise, and often even more quickly and impressively than Rey.

reply

"Politically-motivated attack".

What?

An attack against whom?

The blogosphere?

And what political motivations? The political motivation that thinks race baiting is a bad idea?

reply

Are you really so obtuse and ignorant, or is it an act?

Here's the original post, verbatim:

"I feel by this point, and especially since the argument has become "Only White supremacists dislike Star Wars", that JJA could release a looping mpeg of Harvey Weinstein masturbating as episode IX and the blue tick brigade will still cream themselves regardless."

If you don't immediately understand why someone coming here expecting to see a legitimate, interesting discussion of the film would be dismayed at seeing that, and if you can't also see that the post is political in nature, I can't help you.

reply

Well I can tell you - it's no act!

And thank you for quoting my own post back to me and then offering no explanation for your points. Just "I'm right because I'm right". I expect nothing less from you by now Buffy.

It's a post with about 70 replies and lots of legitimate discussion... so why don't you join in?

I still have no idea how you think it's political? You could say it was crass, you could say it was childish, you could say it was unfunny... but I have no idea how you think it's political.

And while I'm been hyperbolic I'm being serious - there have been a series of race baiting articles written recently be established sites with titles like "Star Wars has a white male fandom problem" which has further politicised the debate (NOT something I am for) which brings me to the post: Do you think - given how toxic the debate has become - that IX will get honest reviews? Honest question and I genuinely want to know what you think.

reply

Bringing "white supremacists" and "the blue tick brigade" into things certainly felt like imposing a political spin on matters.

Regarding your question-- why wouldn't a critic offer an honest review of Star Wars IX, or any film? Do you truly believe there are critics out there who watched Star Wars VIII and disliked it but gave it a positive review anyway? Why would a critic do that?

reply

Because of bias. I don't think a reviewer watches a film and thinks, 'Well, that was awful but now I'm going to give it 5* do to X, Y & Z'. I think it's more a case of 'Well, that was wonderful due to X, Y & Z, 5*!'.

So no, I don't think anyone watched VIII and disliked it but then gave it a good review, I think the critics watched it, went *exceptionally* easy on it and then gave it 5*. Now I don't really care if lots of critics do this but what happened with VIII is that they nearly *all* seemed to, resulting in possibly the biggest disconnect between critics and audiences in history.

We've seen this before of course, but it was usually with 'arty' films which makes sense: those films are never meant to have mass appeal so when a small arthouse film gets rapturous critical praise and is exposed to a large audience - who then hate it - we see these kinds of discrepancies, but Disney Star Wars is as popcorn blockbustery as it gets so I'm at a loss to explain it.

But that was VIII. And now we've seen the argument turn more and more toxic, with many critics writing articles accusing large numbers of Star Wars fans of being problematic... so that leads me to the question: even if IX is awful, will the critics admit it, even to themselves? Like it or not Star Wars has become an internet battleground and I suspect that even if IX is beyond TPM levels of terrible very few bloggers will be prepared to admit it, lest 'the other side' 'win'.

I think it's ridiculous that it's come to this but this is where I think we are. What do you think?

reply

I think, like most members of the American media, most film critics are probably biased towards leftist politics. It's sad, but it's the way it is, and movies that DO have a hard left stance tend to be more appealing to them than would films that don't, though so few films get made with a strong right wing p.o.v. because Hollywood is even more heavily skewed left than right.

What I don't see is any left-wing bias or SJW messages in the new Star Wars films. I'm a fairly conservative person, so it isn't like I have some deep desire for social change that I want to see depicted on the big screen. I think feminism, socialism, and most of what constitutes the "SJW agenda" is cancerous to society; I just don't see any of that here.

I also don't see evidence of a "disconnect between critics and audiences." Audiences generally enjoyed the new Star Wars film. It received an A Cinemascore, which is the only non-gameable rating system I know of for films. On IMDB, a not-easily-manipulated rating system, it rates 7.3, the same rating as, say, John Wick, the first Raimi Spider-Man film, Finding Dory, the Lost Boys, 10 Things I Hate About You, Caddyshack... none of which are films you'd say describe as widely disliked; 7.3 is a very respectable IMDB rating, and right about where I'd personally rank the film, by the way. The Rotten Tomatoes audience score IS rather easily manipulated, and only there is its rating out of whack with its audience score everywhere else. That suggests to me that something fishy is going on with the RT score.

When audiences give it a 94-99 on the can't-be-cheated system, a 73 on the hard-to-cheat system, and a 57 on the easy-to-cheat system, I see that as evidence that audiences and critics seem to agree that it is a solid, good film. A very angry, vocal minority has set out to disparage the film for what they perceive as having a repugnant political message, and part of their attack was to manipulate the ratings downward where possible.

reply

Buffy, I know I've been very critical of your views in the past but it always brings joy to my heart when people with differing views find something they actually agree on.

You make some very good points, and maybe I need to remind myself that this site is a bit of an echo chamber, with 'haters' seemingly outnumbering 'defenders'.

This said, I still think there is a disconnect, and a big one:

Cinemascore gather reviews on the opening day (I believe) - this is when hype is maximised (true for all films I know but the hype for a new Star Wars film is something else - prior to TLJ backlash at least).

IMDB seems to be suffering from severe ratings inflation with more recent films having unfairly high scores (IMO). I feel like any film made in the last 10 years needs at least a point knocking off the score to make it a fair comparison.

RT themselves state the score wasn't manipulated (I know they're biased) and their is credible evidence that the score should actually be lower due to the site ignoring 1/2 star reviews.

Then we have the Youtubers who only have to put an anti TLJ comment in the title to get 100,000+ views. Maybe this is a relatively small group of angry fans all watching the same types of videos, all working each other up, but still, look at this for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw7pcCj0ORk

This is part 1 of a 5 hour rant(!) by an almost unheard of (until recently) Youtuber and it has 650,000+ views and 20,000 likes (vs 750 dislikes).

When over 600,000 people are happy to watch random strangers tear apart a film that 91% of professional critics showered in praise I'd call that a pretty huge disconnect.

And I think it's an example of market correction: as you say, most critics seem to be lefties and I think we've seen a very unfortunate 'coagulation' of the web leading to a slew of sites that seem identical: Vox, Huffpo, the Verge, etc - all selling the same crap in the same way to the same people.

reply

Ultimately it's impossible to know who or how many people loved or hated it, and we're both speculating. It's nice that we can compare ideas without being adamant that there is a provable right or wrong here.

The points you make about Cinemascore make sense, but I'd counter by saying that while I do feel it might skew high because you get people who were interested enough in the film to go on opening night, that doesn't mean they'd lie about liking it, or somehow be confused coming out of the theater because of hype and thinking they liked it when they didn't.

IMDB's rating being 73 and RT's being 57 is puzzling, as there shouldn't be much of a difference at all, unless one of them was somehow manipulated. While modern scores may be higher, wouldn't audiences rate equally high everywhere?

The video you linked is also a bit hard to quantify. There may be 6,500 people cheating the RT score and inflating that video's watch count, or there may genuinely be 650,000 people who hate the film. I would say this, though-- assuming 650,000 people do despise the film enough to watch that video, and even assuming all of them are Americans, because Star Wars is mainly an American phenomenon, and it's in English, that's only .002 % of the US population. At least some must be there, like me, who like the film, but watched the video, and some others must be from outside the US, so even though 650,000 people is a lot of people, it's a tiny, tiny percentage of the total population.

While I can't prove any of this, from what I see and hear in my day-to-day life from friends and strangers who've seen the film, combined with the critical and audience ratings, and taking into account its box office success, I strongly suspect that most viewers were happy with The Last Jedi, but a small, vocal number of people have made it their mission to denigrate the film due to what they perceive as a SJW message.

reply

All fair points Filmbuff.

I'd only add one thing - for a fair comparison we need to compare the people that watched that video to the people who watched TLJ, rather than the entire population. But yes, it's still going to be a tiny percentage.

No doubt see you in another post - where we will probably completely disagree!

Vi ses.

reply

Who's to say? I imagine we must have a fair amount over overlap in our likes as well as our dislikes?

If you had to name your five favorite films of all time, what would you say? Not the Best Films Ever Made, but five films you can watch and rewatch and love every time that are also properly solid, cinematic efforts.

My list fluctuates a bit, but for me it's probably

Seven Samurai
Pulp Fiction
The Lady Eve
Trainspotting
The Sting

You?

reply

I haven't seen the Lady Eve but the others are all great films, no question.

My 5 favourites....? Impossible to say but just from the top of my head I will go with:

Oldboy
Once Upon a Time in the West
Pusher
Branded to Kill
Kind Hearts & Coronets

reply

I don't think we're too far off in our general taste, it's just our perception of the new Star Wars films that differs considerably. I'd even say our lists parallel one another a bit. While we have no films in common, there is a kind of symmetry to our lists:

Pulp Fiction / Oldboy
both violent art films that became unexpected hits, and have cult followings

7 Sam. / Once Upon a Time
lengthy films that seem to breeze by, set in a past time of bandits on horseback, both beautifully filmed, and with a wise but taciturn hero

Trainspotting / Pusher
I haven't seen Pusher, but it appears to be a film from the UK about drug culture?

The Lady Eve/ Kind Hearts & Coronets
rather different films, but both from the Golden Age of film

The Sting/ Branded to Kill
the most tenuous connection here, but they are both about gangsters...

In any event, I also look forward to our next board interaction, where we will hopefully be in better agreement about the topic at hand.

reply

Well, I'll look forward to it to. And I'll be sure to look out The Lady Eve.

One thing though - the UK version of pusher is a remake of the original Danish film (and most like terrible).

reply

I think the only issue with Finn's color was simply he was a Stormtrooper and the Empire (First Order) didn't seem like an inclusive bunch so when Disney led with that image in the trailer..he had reactions related to what people saw as an inconsistency not that a black man shouldn't be in Star Wars or be a key character.

Not only that. He's just the only character known in Star Wars that was part from the Empire and left because of moral issues. And he was the only black character seen in the Empire.

Just exchange races: imagine a movie portraying some black army with one random white soldier. That army starts to massacre innocent people, and while all the black guys do it happily, the only guy who's able to step back and say 'this is wrong' is that random white dude. How that would look?


reply

I was trying to remember if there was another non white first order character, even in the background of TFA. But I had the impression they were still a pretty white group that felt the need to place a female stormtrooper in a shiny outfit to further enhance that she is not the norm.

reply

But I had the impression they were still a pretty white group that felt the need to place a female stormtrooper in a shiny outfit to further enhance that she is not the norm.

Indeed, she doesn't only wear a shiny outfit: she's the only character in the Empire Army that does so. Everybody else wears the official uniform.

(Darth Vader doesn't, but he doesn't belong to the military. In A New Hope the Death Star Commander is Mof Tarkin. Vader is called 'Lord' as he's more of a Right Hand of the Emperor, a kind of Richelieu character in The Three Musketeeers).

reply

I made a post criticizing Rey once and Frogorama out right admitted he did not read my post but that did not stop him from a huge 3-4 paragraphed "response" about how I hated women. So sometimes it absolutely is what Arghhh just described.

reply

It's the ultimate (in some people's eyes) "I win" button. If they can make out you're racist/sexist/hate midgets or whatever they feel that not only have they won whatever argument it was they can also tell themselves their 'opponent' is a terrible human being. It's two for one: I'm right and you're horrible, this is why it is so common and so pervasive.

It's utterly maddening to be honest.

reply

At least Froggy admitted to not reading the OP he was responding to. Most of these people will pretend they read what they were responding to.

reply

Froggy appears to be a gestalt character comprising multiple personalities. As long as you steer clear of Rey and Prometheus he's quite insightful and occasionally humorous.

But you're totally right...

FilmBuff is a perfect example of this. I made a post, he replied to it but didn't address any of my points so I said to him 'You've clearly not even read my post' and do you know what he accused me of? He said I'd gone back and edited my OP! Yup, that was it! Not that you're just blinded by your own biases - I actually took the time to stealth edit my post (in a way that meant all the other replies still made sense!) so I could gaslight a random account on Moviechat.org.

It's like they're wearing the glasses from They Live. Or not. Which ever way around it needs to be.

reply

Yeah, when not discussing Rey, he's an okay chap. I've had a few conversations with Film Buff about other topics. He's... a unique personality.

reply

With disney controlling fox soon. Most creatives still want jobs, so bad mouthing films may put them out of jobs or invites to premieres

reply

The sad thing is, I don't think this is the reason why Disney Star Wars has gotten such good reviews. Tommorowland, A Wrinkle in time, John Carter - all were Disney and all were harshly received by the critics. No I think the truth is far more sinister and far more depressing... I think they actually like the sequels. *Why* they like them is another question but it's probably connected to the fact that the media as a whole is at its lowest ebb since Gutenberg.

reply

especially since the argument has become "Only White supremacists dislike Star Wars",

I was wondering when you would arrive at flat-out lying... and here we are. Your credibility has reached zero, sorry.

reply

I wasn't exactly being serious Froggy. Christ. You might be shocked to learn that I don't think people would actually give 5*s to a looping Mpeg of Harvey Weinstein wanking either.

Why don't you answer the question instead of getting up tight?

If part IX is terrible do you think anyone in the press will have the nerve to admit it?

reply

The movies no longer matter. An us vs them division has occurred, with the franchise becoming a battleground for political feuds, and it's never going to be the way it was again. Star Wars is broken. The creators are damned if they do, damned if they don't. All cults work like clockwork till they become religion. Once something gets big enough, it collapses. That's why the Sith's Rule of Two is so dope.

reply

Helt enig.

reply

Diz is willing to sacrifice the old fuddy-duddys in favor of what they consider the new sensibility. There is a certain percentage of old guard fans (%20?) that will love anything Star Wars regardless of quality. Those coupled with a younger crowd that will always look back in fondness at TLJ (since they saw it when they were just 10 years old. See prequel fans) will certainly power continued success for the franchise.
Wouldn't be the first time I hated a big money franchise. Transformers, Jurassic x, and Fast and Furious all suck but are huge successes. Star Wars is becoming this. Pleasing the discerning viewer is not the path to franchise success.
There will ever be a strong element of the blogosphere that champions Star Wars. As long as they can control the narrative of just who it is that doesn't like Star Wars, they have a platform to remain in the requisite eternal down-with-the-cause mode. Doesn't matter if it is true or not. Never does.

reply

People who dislike the the Di$ney ST have largely been accused of being sexists over MaRey and to a lesser degree general purple hair far more so than being racist white supremacists over Finn. Particularly after the film was released. If you were a white supremacist you'd more likely be perfectly okay with Finn's portrayal up to this point, considering he's largely a bumbling sambo tag along to the far more competent white protagonists which is why many critics of the portrayal of the Finn character are black. He's well meaning but mostly weak, cowardly & inept and basically this trilogy's Jar Jar. Absolutely no threat to the delicate egos of white supremacists.

reply

They do need to stop having him clap his hands to his head while exclaiming "Lawdy, lawdy, lawdy! I done messed up, sho nuff!"

reply

"Droid please" wasn't so far off from just that...

reply

"All's I's cares about it massa Rey and running away.
I's just loves how Rey emasculates me & shows how superior she is in every scene we's in together"

reply