MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion > Luke Skywalker is the very definition of...

Luke Skywalker is the very definition of a Gary Stu (aka Mary Sue)


Mary Sue was a female character, written by a female fan, and it was such a sexist term that there was actually debate on whether or not a male character with the same traits would qualify for the same criticism!

It took time before the Gary/Marty Stu concept was even acknowledged. It's also originally a term regarding fan fiction, and no Force Awakens is not that. Rey is based on Kira, the female student Lucas developed for his sequels.

One thing about Rey is that her strongest detractors constantly lie about her and describe events in Force Awakens dishonestly in order to bash her (let's ignore the crappy Last Jedi because this started in TFA). They call her perfect even though she makes a series of mistakes in the movie:
-She screws up with the Rathars, almost killing Finn and Han and nearly getting the Falcon destroyed.
-She childishly wanders away from the group and gets herself captured by Kylo, which serves as an unnecessary distraction while trying to blow up Starkiller.
-She spends most of her saber fight against Kylo looking foolish, literally trying the same forward thrust over and over and over.

They also completely warp her fight against Kylo, leaving out:
1. That even Finn held his ground against Kylo;
2. That Kylo was horribly wounded by the same weapon that tossed a group of troopers;
3. That Kylo wanted to train her, not hurt her;
4. That only the Force allowed her to get the upper hand;
5. That she did not defeat Kylo;
6. That she fended for herself using a staff for years on Jakku, unlike farm boy Luke.

Now:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

The primary definition of a Mary Sue:
"The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment."

LUKE's very name is based on George's last name, LUCAS. George has stated on his own that Luke racing around in his desert homeland of Tatooine is directly based on George growing up in Modesto racing old cars with his friends (also what American Graffiti is partly based on). Luke IS FACTUALLY an author avatar/insert.


"The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions, even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting"

That last part describes Han Solo warming up to Luke and becoming his best buddy.

Also overwhelmed: Leia, who comforts Luke over the loss of Kenobi that he had known for a day... WHILE Leia ignores that her family and friends and people were destroyed in a planetary genocide!

LUKE'S FEELINGS ARE JUST TOO IMPORTANT! He sucks up all the attention and sympathy.


"the canon characters are quickly reduced to awestruck cheerleaders"

Leia's not done being overwhelmed. Even though she just met Luke, and no one has seen him fly anything, AND he's NEVER flown an X-Wing, he is tossed into one to fight for the Rebellion's very survival! Biggs (actual trained fighter pilot) didn't vouch for him, because he doesn't run into Biggs until the two are getting in their ships.

All Luke ever had to say was that he's "a pretty good pilot," and as a male, he's in the clear to do ANYTHING. Rey says she's a pilot, and some people just don't think that's good enough.

Basic double standard... oh but women can't drive, right? LOL!


"watching from the sidelines as Mary Sue outstrips them in their areas of expertise"

Vader: Fighting with a saber for longer than Luke was alive. Defeated countless Jedi as he lead the Jedi purge. Is considered one of the best lightsaber users EVER. Trained for many years to become what he is.

Farm Boy Luke: Never received lightsaber combat training, and in fact minimal Force training overall. Luke BEATS Vader on the SECOND lightsaber fight of Luke's ENTIRE LIFE! Becomes a Master with next to no training.


"She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing."

Luke's flaws: Um, he's too nice? Too determined? Too pure and good!


Luke built a lightsaber yet never learned how.

Luke used a Force Pull at the opening of Empire Strikes Back even though he didn't even know telekinesis was possible using the Force, because it was never even shown in A New Hope! I GUESS LUKE INVENTED IT!



"She has some sort of especially close relationship to the author's favorite canon character"

Son of Darth Vader, brother of Princess Leia. These are the first two main characters we see in the entire franchise, so of course Luke is related to both of them! This is actually Lucas' own "fan fiction" of sorts, because he literally wrote A New Hope with Luke being unrelated to Leia and Vader. He changed Vader in ESB and he changed Leia in ROTJ (yes, Yoda's "there is another" was written to refer to another self-exiled Jedi who would come back).

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Luke would have been an excellent Imperial Mole. He's immediately trusted by the Rebellion and given an X-Wing for no reason mere hours after Leia meets him.

If he had been a spy, he could have waited until they were near the Death Star, and then shot down the other X-Wings.

Not to mention: If the Rebellion had any history of the Republic (Leia knew Kenobi's past, so it seems they did), they could see that Luke had the same last name as Anakin Skywalker, who turned against the Jedi.

"Hey, this is the son of a Jedi gone bad... maybe we should be suspicious of him? Nah, just toss him in a fighter and let's go to battle!"

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*ribbit*

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That's exactly what I said! (also posting because I added a little somethin' somethin' to the post you replied to)

The Kira character from Lucas had some remarkable similarities to Rey, more than I realized. She went spelunking in Imperial ruins, just like Rey, except it was underwater and it was the Emperor's Tower from the Death Star 2.

There was also a map to find Luke and other Jedi, which she found in that tower.

She went to the planet he was on, which was mountainous and green and looked almost exactly like Ach-To, and it was also the location of the ancient Jedi Temple (which was more futuristic in the preproduction art than the one in Last Jedi).

It's cool how his ideas were changed and not entirely ditched. Plus, Kylo is loosely based on one of Han and Leia's sons who turned toward the Dark Side, which was in the old sequel novels (Pretty sure that was Jacen, their younger son was named Anakin I think).

Daisy Ridley was also possibly chosen because she almost exactly resembles the novel cover artwork for Jaina Solo:
http://www.agentsofguard.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/JainaS.jpg

Interesting stuff.

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Luke would have been an excellent Imperial Mole. He's immediately trusted by the Rebellion and given an X-Wing for no reason mere hours after Leia meets him.

If he had been a spy, he could have waited until they were near the Death Star, and then shot down the other X-Wings.


Putting the rescue of Leia aside, let's also ignore the fact that Biggs, Porkins and Wedge knew him and vouched for him.

What did Biggs say to Red Leader about Luke? Hmm... Tunnel vision much?

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Shut up, noob. Go back to the "Twilight" fandom you came from.

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I would love it if your blather made even a lick of sense.

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it does - accidentally so. The Twilight franchise is infamous for sporting a Mary Sue character: Bela (and her boyfriend too). Bela is an Anti-Sue type, thus different from Rey who is written as a classic god-mode Sue.

Ironic thing here is, I am sure Guitar King was as ignorant of that fact as you are. Even a broken clock..., or: dumb and dumber get lucky sometimes too.

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Is this the first time you discovered TVtropes or the origin of the term Mary Sue?

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I think he is still trying to deflect criticism of the Rey character by calling Luke a Mary Sue. Of course if Luke is a Mary Sue than that just makes the case against Rey stronger, so not sure why this failed argument continues.

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The funny thing is, he still ignores many things about Luke.

1) He spends most of A New Hope getting saved by other characters. Obi-Wan saves his life twice before they even leave Tattooine. Even R2-D2 saves him at one point (although he saved the rest of the team as well).

2) Luke does not even come close to beating Vadar until the end of the third movie.

3) A lot of people tended to dislike or at least disrespect Luke when they first meet him. Sure, Leia and Han get to like him, but it takes almost an entire movie before they do so. Again, even R2-D2 is pretty dismissive of the guy at first. He doesn't have that "instantly loved by all" element.

4) Most major plans are carried out either by Obi-Wan or Leia. Luke does have the idea of rescuing Leia, but he and Han soon find themselves in trouble and it's Leia who bales them out. Otherwise, he is following other people as he is the everyman in this story and needs a lot of exposition delivered to him.

5) Luke's big hero moment comes at the end of A New Hope (because it's a hero's journey so they need to start him off small and end big) but even that bit involved Han and Chewie defeating Vadar in order to save Luke and it involved Obi-Wan's ghost giving him a pep talk. Basically A New Hope is a two hour build-up to Luke making a one-in-a-million shot after multiple failures or half-victories. That's why people loved him.

And that's just A New Hope.

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Also, I posted these vids a while back on the TFA board, but I guess it needs repeating:

Is Luke a Mary Sue?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xem4yyx6wok

If Rey were Luke in ANH:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE2at2Wo9sU

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Here we go again, Frogger. You and you personal incredulity and tu-quoque fallacies. Just accept the old saying: You can take the "Rey" out of Ma-Rey Sue, but you will never get the Mary Sue out of Rey.

Just by comparing Luke vs Rey in their first movies:

- Rey understands all languages, including Wookie and droid speak - Luke does not;

- Rey is a formidable fighter beating up thugs and scaring off scavengers away from their loot - Luke is not, he is beaten up several times (by the sand people & in the bar) and is in need of protection and help throughout the movie (Han, Obi Wan);

- Rey is noble and strong; Luke is whiny, reckless and weak; Rey despite being raised by ruthless scavengers such as Unkar Putt has developed an superhuman morality compelling her to starve rather than to betray a little droid she just met – Luke treats droids like property/slaves;

- Despite hating guns Rey immediately is an (untrained) formidable marks man hitting everything at a great distance while running away and shooting a stranger’s gun; Rey can even (incredibly) aim with the turret while she is piloting or hit 3 Ties with her first shot - Luke cannot, despite being trained with guns/rifles he is an average shot at best missing many, many shots;

- People and droids follow Rey like puppies, especially BB-8 (who is useless because Rey does all mechanics/engineering and door opening alone) – Luke seems not to have this fascinating effect, his droid R2 tricks him and runs away from him;

- Rey wants to stay home but only leaves for loyalty and compassion for her new friends and destiny - Luke wants to leave home, but stays out of weakness and loyalty (Owen/Beru);

There is more….

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Continuation 2/4
- Rey is her own self-employed master and independent – Luke is not, he is Owen's subservient lackey;

- Rey the scavenger is an incredible ace pilot: Without a copilot or any experience with the ship she masterfully pilots the bulky Falcon through an abandoned destroyer and graveyard under fire outmaneuvering trained combat pilots - Luke does not even understand how the cockpit of the MF works ("what's that flashing?");

- While flying alone, Rey performs incredible stunt piloting moves, including aligning the Falcon in midair so that Finn just has to pull the trigger ("How did you do that? - I don't know – That was some flying – It was PERFECT") - Luke however is mocked, derided and not allowed to pilot, despite being set up as a pilot; and even in empty space in his X-Wing Luke needs constant assistance from R2 and other pilots and Han, who sacrifice themselves for him.

- Rey circumvents the security of Starkiller so that the explosive charges can be placed and the SK base be destroyed - Luke has no such abilities, he needs R2 to get saved from the trash compactor;

- Rey saves herself out of captivity, and only does not flee so that the team can blow up Starkiller, without her they would be lost - Luke plan to save Leia is amateurish and Leia takes over the lead when his poorly thought out plan fails miserably;

- Rey is an incredible mechanic and even a brilliant engineer stunning even Han (“I bypassed the compressor”) and despite her starved condition a great climber and spelunker - - Luke does not show such talents;

- Rey can do advanced Jedi Force tricks without training, like telekinesis, mind tricks, mind reading etc - Luke needs training for very basic Force abilities (knowing when to shoot the torpedo), and only reaches Rey's ability level when he is a trained Jedi;

More to come...

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Continuation 3/4
- Rey beats the main antagonist (Kylo, Master of the Ren) several times with untrained Force and sword skills - Luke does not even come near the main antagonist (Vader), except for being nearly shot down by him and being saved by others;

- Rey is better with everything and bests everyone at their game (Han, Finn, Kylo, droids etc), even Luke & Poe were partially removed from the script so they cannot steal her spotlight; everybody becomes her cheerleader (Leia, Chewie, Finn etc) - Luke is a undecided zero at the beginning: Han is cooler, Obi is more powerful, Leia his sister is lightyears ahead of him (leader, senator), his friends such as Biggs are ahead of him too;

- Rey is the only hot young girl around with a posh accent - Luke is an average small farmboy, one of many kids, who mostly left him behind already;

- Rey gets a glorification hug for no apparent reason from the VIP Resistance leader (Leia) who she never met before instead of Leia's old friend Chewie or all the returning heroes who Leia leads - Luke does not get any unwarranted hugs but only after he succeeds and after he becomes friends with the huggers (Leia/Han);

- Rey becomes captain of the MF after Han's death, stepping over Chewie who “likes her” and looks at her in an adoring way (like everybody else, the Rebels are even waving her collectively goodbye when she leaves) - Luke does not get any positions and is violently pushed away by Chewie;

- Rey is sent on the most important mission to find Luke, leaving all his friend and family behind her - Luke does not get any solo missions;

- Rey is so important and special that even long lost light sabers and dead VIP masters like Obi Wan and Yoda call out to her - nobody really calls out to Luke;

- Rey is desired by everybody, but she is hard to get: she either friend zones or emasculates the characters who are fascinated by her - Luke does not even get the girl in the end;

Still MORE to come….

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Continuation 4/4
In the end, Rey in TFA gets Han's gun and iconic ship (Falcon), Luke's legacy light saber and R2-droid, and Chewie as a copilot - and she finds MacGuffin-Luke: she is the SOLE HEIR and SAVIOUR of the SW UNIVERSE - Luke gets a medal, but only next to Han, who already is successfully flirting with Luke's wanna-be girlfriend and sister!

And let's not even compare Rey in TLJ vs complete failure Luke in TESB, shall we...? You should really try to understand writing concepts before unsuccessful bending them to fit your delusions. Consider yourself debunked.

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But Luke can bulls-eye wamp rats is his T-16, and they're not much bigger than two meters, and that's impossible, even for a computer!

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great and insightful post man. these Mary Sue Rey apologists are sad liars

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It was a good post and I think you need to learn to just let the OP pitch his little temper tantrum and then ignore him. He sees everything through the prism of race and gender.

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I didn't read your post, but I just wanted to comment here to let you know that the masculine of Mary Sue is "Gary Stu."

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I'm perfectly okay calling male characters Mary Sue. I don't consider it a gendered term. If people pick a different word for this sort of character, I'd use that too. In fact, I kind of welcome it so people will stop accusing people of hating women just because they bring up a pop culture term that has been around for decades.

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