MovieChat Forums > Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi (2017) Discussion > Luke Skywalker is the very definition of...

Luke Skywalker is the very definition of a Gary Stu (aka Mary Sue)


Mary Sue was a female character, written by a female fan, and it was such a sexist term that there was actually debate on whether or not a male character with the same traits would qualify for the same criticism!

It took time before the Gary/Marty Stu concept was even acknowledged. It's also originally a term regarding fan fiction, and no Force Awakens is not that. Rey is based on Kira, the female student Lucas developed for his sequels.

One thing about Rey is that her strongest detractors constantly lie about her and describe events in Force Awakens dishonestly in order to bash her (let's ignore the crappy Last Jedi because this started in TFA). They call her perfect even though she makes a series of mistakes in the movie:
-She screws up with the Rathars, almost killing Finn and Han and nearly getting the Falcon destroyed.
-She childishly wanders away from the group and gets herself captured by Kylo, which serves as an unnecessary distraction while trying to blow up Starkiller.
-She spends most of her saber fight against Kylo looking foolish, literally trying the same forward thrust over and over and over.

They also completely warp her fight against Kylo, leaving out:
1. That even Finn held his ground against Kylo;
2. That Kylo was horribly wounded by the same weapon that tossed a group of troopers;
3. That Kylo wanted to train her, not hurt her;
4. That only the Force allowed her to get the upper hand;
5. That she did not defeat Kylo;
6. That she fended for herself using a staff for years on Jakku, unlike farm boy Luke.

Now:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

The primary definition of a Mary Sue:
"The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment."

LUKE's very name is based on George's last name, LUCAS. George has stated on his own that Luke racing around in his desert homeland of Tatooine is directly based on George growing up in Modesto racing old cars with his friends (also what American Graffiti is partly based on). Luke IS FACTUALLY an author avatar/insert.


"The canon protagonists are all overwhelmed with admiration for her beauty, wit, courage and other virtues, and are quick to adopt her as one of their True Companions, even characters who are usually antisocial and untrusting"

That last part describes Han Solo warming up to Luke and becoming his best buddy.

Also overwhelmed: Leia, who comforts Luke over the loss of Kenobi that he had known for a day... WHILE Leia ignores that her family and friends and people were destroyed in a planetary genocide!

LUKE'S FEELINGS ARE JUST TOO IMPORTANT! He sucks up all the attention and sympathy.


"the canon characters are quickly reduced to awestruck cheerleaders"

Leia's not done being overwhelmed. Even though she just met Luke, and no one has seen him fly anything, AND he's NEVER flown an X-Wing, he is tossed into one to fight for the Rebellion's very survival! Biggs (actual trained fighter pilot) didn't vouch for him, because he doesn't run into Biggs until the two are getting in their ships.

All Luke ever had to say was that he's "a pretty good pilot," and as a male, he's in the clear to do ANYTHING. Rey says she's a pilot, and some people just don't think that's good enough.

Basic double standard... oh but women can't drive, right? LOL!


"watching from the sidelines as Mary Sue outstrips them in their areas of expertise"

Vader: Fighting with a saber for longer than Luke was alive. Defeated countless Jedi as he lead the Jedi purge. Is considered one of the best lightsaber users EVER. Trained for many years to become what he is.

Farm Boy Luke: Never received lightsaber combat training, and in fact minimal Force training overall. Luke BEATS Vader on the SECOND lightsaber fight of Luke's ENTIRE LIFE! Becomes a Master with next to no training.


"She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing."

Luke's flaws: Um, he's too nice? Too determined? Too pure and good!


Luke built a lightsaber yet never learned how.

Luke used a Force Pull at the opening of Empire Strikes Back even though he didn't even know telekinesis was possible using the Force, because it was never even shown in A New Hope! I GUESS LUKE INVENTED IT!



"She has some sort of especially close relationship to the author's favorite canon character"

Son of Darth Vader, brother of Princess Leia. These are the first two main characters we see in the entire franchise, so of course Luke is related to both of them! This is actually Lucas' own "fan fiction" of sorts, because he literally wrote A New Hope with Luke being unrelated to Leia and Vader. He changed Vader in ESB and he changed Leia in ROTJ (yes, Yoda's "there is another" was written to refer to another self-exiled Jedi who would come back).

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Nothing wrong with Daisy Ridley. She did a fine job with the character she was given by JJ and Kasdan, but that character...total Mary Sue. Rey's MarySueness is the pinnacle against which all future Sue's will be measured.

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*yawn* Another strawman argument from Spanners. Go back to worshipping Prometheus.

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Pssst! Hey Froggy... I got something to tell you...

Are you ready?

Mary Sue....

Is...

A...

Rey.

I've just heard back from the international committee of crimes against writing and they have agreed that the term 'Mary Sue' has now been replaced by 'Rey'. Now, whenever anyone anywhere wants to refer to an awfully written character, that experiences no growth as they are already perfect, the type of character beloved by hacks and child authors alike, they can simply save themselves 2 syllables of effort and refer to them as a 'Rey'. And best of all, seeing as Rey is a sexless character with no femminie traits what so ever it removes the misogynistic element!

Isn't this wonderful news??!

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Luke isn't a Mary Sue, and no-one ever accused him of being one in ~40 years, including you.

YOUR ISSUE is that you have ZERO defense for rey being a Mary Sue. You KNOW that you have no argument for this which is why you never come from that angle, ever.

Rather you are DESPERATE to create a 'false equivalence' by attempting to retcon the past ... and retcon your own memories. How convenient your contrived and deliberately skewed memories of the OT are since the release of TFA. As if by magic.

Luke is not a "rey/Mary Sue" (the terms are equivalent). You know it, as does everyone else.

All of your point are twisted, baseless assumptions, 'what-ifs' or just plain false.

You are pathetic.

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Bump because I edited the title to clarify.

Luke and Rey are both Stu's/Sue's EXCEPT for the problem that these terms are supposed to refer to HUMANS doing SUPERHUMAN things.

NOT ACTUAL SUPER HUMANS, like FORCE SENSITIVES.

Magic literally invalidates the applicability of Sue/Stu 100%!!!

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Are you still pushing this illogical argument, we get it you are Reys bitch.

That still doesn't take away the fact that we are told Rey is a scavenger, doing so to survive. Sells what she finds to feed herself. Wonderful well done.

So when did she learn to fly? How did she pay for flight lessons? Why didn't she barter for a cheap ship to fly off the planet considering she is such an aweome pilot and go look for her parents?

When did she learn mechanical/engineering skills to fix a ship she has never been on. Would know nothnig about its components or internals and literally knows more than the long standing owner Han Solo.

No one told her about the force, no one showed her what the force was, no one told her how to manipulate the force, no one told her what force skills existed, you know that magic.

So how does she mind control a first order trooper when she didn't even know the skill existed.

How does she force pull a lightsaber from a sith master when again she didn't even know the skill existed.

Everyone has told you this, everyone has countered your arguments. But unfortunately you are a Rey fanboy who is completly blind to his own bollocks.

i'm sure you will reply with the same SJW responses throughout this whole thread which i won't read but go for your life. The same arguement that Rey isn't a Mary Sue which is laughable becuase she most definately is.

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We can stop using the term Mary Stu/Sue and instead call it a Wooblaboogieboo instead. That way, we can remove any gender related names, which you and I agree should be the case. So, what is a Wooblaboogieboo? A Wooblaboogieboo who has no character flaws, no struggles, always succeeds without difficulty, is shown to be always right, everyone loves them (including their own enemies), and is does not require any sort of character development. Often, they are shallow and void of personality. It has nothing to do with magic or powers as you seem to think.

In my opinion, one of the biggest Wooblaboogieboos in movies is Dom Toretto from the Fast and Furious franchise. In comics, Superman and Wolverine are often Wooblaboogieboos as well.

Luke Skywalker is not, however. In A New Hope, he often fails, requiring other characters to come in for the save (Obi-Wan saves him twice with the first thirty minutes). Even in his big hero moment at the end with the Death Star, he only succeeds because Han Solo helped him out. He often makes mistakes such as when he shot the controls for the bridge by mistake or how he had a plan to save Leia at the detention center but did not account for getting pinned down by Stormtroopers afterwards. Also, he is not automatically loved by the main characters. R2D2, Han, Chewie, and Leia all have a lot of disregard for him for the first several scenes until he proves his worth as a hero.

In Empire Strikes Back, he is more powerful and skilled as a hero, but he still requires saving. Han has to save him form freezing to death at the beginning (that's two you owe me kid). He receives training from Yoda but soon leaves to save his friends despite both Yoda and Obi-Wan warning him not to. He pays the ultimate price for this mistake as Darth Vader easily kicks the crap out of him and chops off his hand. Additionally, he fails to save Han from Boba Fett. The movie ends with Luke as a beaten failure.

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In Return of the Jedi, Luke has grown and matured. He outsmarts Jabba with a plan to save Han and no longer requires being saved by others. This is the completion of his hero's journey. He confronts Vader in an attempt to redeem him which does not go well as Palpatine manipulates the two into a fight. While Luke does ultimately defeat Vader, he does so at the expense of loosing his temper. He realizes his folly, but Palpatine starts killing him. Vader ends up killing Palpatine, dying in the process. so while Luke is a hero by the third movie, he is still prone to mistakes.

So no, he is not a Wooblaboogieboo.

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Luke had less time from farm boy to Jedi "Knight" than the 20 years Rey had fending for herself and being a little mini-engineer on Jakku.

Anakin was building droids and racing pods at 10 years old simply because he had a tough life as a slave, and yet Rey is the one being questioned for 20 years of experience fighting and scraping by?

Luke also used telekinesis at the start of Empire without it ever being shown in the first movie. Even Vader's Force Choke is arguably a mental thing like Kenobi waving off Stormtroopers, nowhere in A New Hope is telekinesis shown. All of Ben's training of Luke is short and shown: It was perceived, when written, as a focusing tool and connection to the dead who were still alive. If the Force contained telekinesis in ANH, Ben would have used it for the lever of the tractor beam instead of climbing out there to manually do it. It would have been shown. But in ANH, Vader was specifically not Luke's father, also. The story evolved with sequels.

When telekinesis was added to the Force in Empire, it was simply introduced with Luke showing off something he couldn't have ever been taught. Then in the next movie he builds a lightsaber even though no one could have taught him, it's just unexplained and left for filling in later with books, that's just how things are done! Mysteries are fun! I'm not saying it's wrong I'm saying it's a tradition being carried on with Rey.

Rey is shown arguably learning her mental skill and her telekinesis by copying what she can feel Kylo doing, it happens BOTH TIMES in both the interrogation and when she diverts the lightsaber. Daisy even does a tremendous job showing in her face the realization that she can do back to Kylo what he's doing to her mind! Yet haters can't admit to it, they watch the scene with BIAS.

Luke is allowed so much leeway, and Rey literally gets bashed for doing the same things for even better reasons.

Especially if she's a PALPATINE! I think it's been planned that way.

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And then Luke also is never trained in lightsaber combat by Yoda, or anyone... didn't fend for himself with a fighting staff for 20 years like Rey, yet Luke, in the SECOND (untrained) lightsaber fight of his life, BEATS the BEST lightsaber user and Jedi Killer Darth Vader, who doesn't turn toward good until AFTER being soundly defeated and having to watch Palpatine take over the fight for him.

Rey didn't even do that well against Kylo, who had already been hit by the saber from Finn, who had gotten shot with the bowcaster, who was bleeding.... who also ALREADY DOES NOT WANT TO KILL REY, he wants to train her and offers to...


And she only bests him after focusing on the Force....

And she's got years of fighting staff experience, remember!

Yet Rey is the one being questioned here? Luke is a demigod compared to her AND the great Anakin/Vader, and yet Rey is being questioned.

Do you see the double standards yet? Seriously. I am going to turn you back from the dark side by showing you this light, LOL!

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You are only looking at power. That is your first mistake.

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Luke, in the SECOND (untrained) lightsaber fight of his life,


The first training Luke had was with the lightsaber. Please pay attention.

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"Luke had less time from farm boy to Jedi "Knight" than the 20 years Rey had fending for herself and being a little mini-engineer on Jakku."

LOL at you using one of Rey's Mary Sue moments to argue against her being a Mary Sue. The idea of a little girl fending for herself on a hostile desert planet is utterly laughable. She would have been claimed by someone as a slave immediately, and she would have offered about as much resistance to grown men as a mouse offers to a cat.

The idea of her being a scavenger is laughable too. Removing parts off old heavy machinery often requires a lot of strength and/or a lot of specialty tools (which are heavy, expensive, and take up a lot of space). I'll bet you everything I own that Daisy Ridley can't separate a ball joint on an old pickup truck with a hammer like my mechanic friend Dave can do with just one or two solid whacks, even if she tries for a year straight. Buffoons like you, and most everyone in Hollywood, have no idea about such things because you/they have never done any mechanical work. And even if someone in Hollywood realizes it is ridiculous for Rey to be a successful scavenger, their SJW agenda overrides common sense.

Mary Rey Sue being the Sho Kosugi of the bo staff is yet another joke. Also, even if she did magically acquire high level skills with a bo staff, she isn't strong enough, and a bo staff isn't effective enough, for her to fend off a grown man (let alone, grown men) who also survives on a hostile desert planet. She might get one hit in before being tackled by someone twice her weight and three times her strength. Again, you and Hollywood types have no experience in real fights. In the real world, people don't act as if they've been hit by the Hammer of Thor when hit by a low-mass stick swung by a weakling.

"Luke also used telekinesis at the start of Empire without it ever being shown in the first movie."

It was established in the first movie that Obi-Wan could communicate with Luke even after he died. Plus, it had been a couple/few years since he was first instructed in "the force," and it took much effort and concentration to "force pull" that lightsaber to himself. Mary Ray Sue not only force pulled a lightsaber without any training at all, but she did on day one, and had such a mastery over it that she overpowered a powerful force user who was trying to do the same thing.

"When telekinesis was added to the Force in Empire, it was simply introduced with Luke showing off something he couldn't have ever been taught."

Yes, he could have been taught it. See above. Mary Rey Sue, on the other hand, was much better at it, and a lot sooner, and definitely wasn't taught it.

"Then in the next movie he builds a lightsaber even though no one could have taught him"

Yes, he could have been taught it. See above. How unfortunate for your position as a Rey apologist that it was established in Luke's first movie that Obi-Wan could still communicate with Luke after dying.

"Rey is shown arguably learning her mental skill and her telekinesis by copying what she can feel Kylo doing, it happens BOTH TIMES in both the interrogation and when she diverts the lightsaber. Daisy even does a tremendous job showing in her face the realization that she can do back to Kylo what he's doing to her mind!"

Utterly absurd. If that's the case, why had training always been required? Why didn't Obi-Wan simply copy & paste his Jedi Master abilities into Luke's mind?

"Luke is allowed so much leeway, and Rey literally gets bashed for doing the same things for even better reasons."

You are thoroughly confused.

"And then Luke also is never trained in lightsaber combat by Yoda, or anyone"

His first training was with a lightsaber, plus Obi-Wan could communicate with him at any time throughout the OT. Darth Vader even said to Luke in TESB, with regard to Luke's lightsaber skills, "Obi-Wan has taught you well," even though he knew he'd killed Obi-Wan years prior. He said the same thing to him in ROTJ, when it had been even longer since he'd killed Obi-Wan.

"Rey didn't even do that well against Kylo"

Is that a joke? She WON, despite having never used a lightsaber before.

"who had already been hit by the saber from Finn, who had gotten shot with the bowcaster, who was bleeding"

Those things didn't affect his mobility at all, as you can clearly see simply by watching the movie. Also, Mary Rey Sue had been slammed into a tree at high velocity, and fell some 20 feet to the ground, which should have broken several bones and incapacitated her for a few months. Yet she, in true Mary Sue fashion, shrugged it off and beat a high-level force user in a lightsaber fight. LOL at that, and LOL at you too, you know, while I'm at it.

(continued below)

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"who also ALREADY DOES NOT WANT TO KILL REY, he wants to train her and offers to..."

Had the writing been true to previously established rules and logic, he could have simply "force frozen" her and not have to fight her at all. Also, even if he did decide to fight, he could have immediately cut off her lightsaber hand, since she should have known fuckall about lightsaber fighting. How about you go a round with an Olympic fencer and see how well you do?

"And she only bests him after focusing on the Force...."

The force that she had zero training in? Is that "the force" you're referring to?

"And she's got years of fighting staff experience, remember!"

LOL!

"Luke is a demigod compared to her AND the great Anakin/Vader, and yet Rey is being questioned."

You're insane. Mary Rey Sue equalled or exceeded everything we've seen Luke do, in her very first movie, with zero training, and it's even more lopside if we limit the comparison to Luke in his first movie. Here are some things she did in TFA that Luke never did in Star Wars (1977):

1. Use the "Jedi mind trick", even though he had seen Kenobi demonstrate it.

2. Use his light saber in battle, even though he had some basic training with it, much less defeat the "big bad" with it.

3. Use the "force grab", much less overpower a powerful force user's simultaneous attempt at a force grab.

4. Pilot a totally different type of craft than he already had experience with, much less do so with expertise (his T-16 was similar to the X-wing that he piloted at the end of the movie, and was even used for training X-wing pilots).

5. Fix anything on the Millennium Falcon, much less fix something that Han couldn't.

6. Become an expert shot with a blaster pistol the first time ever using one.

7. Beat up his attackers, much less more than one attacker at the same time, and much, much less more than one attacker at the same time that each outweighed him by at least 70 pounds. Instead he was beaten senseless by one of the Sand People, and saved by Kenobi, and then pushed to the floor in the cantina, and again saved by Kenobi.

"Do you see the double standards yet?"

No, moron, there is no double standard. You're simply an idiot.

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All those words you wrote were a waste of time. All you need to do is look no further than the female president of Disney wearing a "Force is Female" t shirt. The same lady who green-lit the idea of Rey. Who green-lit the idea to push identity politics into star wars. Who green-lit the idea to push multiple agendas down our throats. Why waste your time writing this drivel when it all comes down to one simple word that holds the truth: Misandry.

So you can forget trying to explain in-universe nonsense with more nonsense.

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The new characters suck eggs. I don’t give a flying Christ fuck what happens to any of them. I was devastated as a kid when Obi won was killed; and terrified when Han was frozen. And it was gut wrenching when Luke got his hand cut off. Anything could happen to Poe, Rey, and Finn; and it would mean absolutely nothing to me.
It’s not political and it’s not just sour grapes... the movies are just horribly written and if anyone uses the argument, “well in the originals so and so did this and nobody said anything then...” they are fucking delusional and buffoonish. Not to mention obnoxious

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Completely agree, the new movies are just bad, no one has a problem with strong female characters, minority characters, etc. My evidence: The public loved Lando Calrissian and Princess Leia. Luke was very much NOT a Gary Stu, he had to put in some actual effort to get to where he was and he very much did not succeed the first time (Vader handed his ass to him). Rey pretty much is perfect and can do everything blindfolded and the reason why: Well there is no reason, it's just because she's Rey.

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-She screws up with the Rathars, almost killing Finn and Han and nearly getting the Falcon destroyed.

Who cares? This is a completely throw away sequence that does nothing to advance the story.

-She childishly wanders away from the group and gets herself captured by Kylo, which serves as an unnecessary distraction while trying to blow up Starkiller.

You're missing the bigger picture of how stupid this is. As you label it a "mistake", it's more along the lines of poor writing to make the character stupid in order for her to get captured to further the idiotic narrative of the story.

-She spends most of her saber fight against Kylo looking foolish, literally trying the same forward thrust over and over and over.

And then all of a sudden she closes her eyes as the music swells and she parries every strike and her strikes are so forceful they push Ben Ren back and she slashes him across the face. From what you stated to what I stated fit together as much as oil and water.

They also completely warp her fight against Kylo, leaving out:
1. That even Finn held his ground against Kylo;


Which makes no sense.

2. That Kylo was horribly wounded by the same weapon that tossed a group of troopers;

And yet he can still punch his wound constantly and apparently RUN from where he was to cut off Rey and Finn to the Falcon. Thus, running FASTER than them. Makes perfect sense!

3. That Kylo wanted to train her, not hurt her;

How does this explain how Ben Ren got bested in the duel being that he received YEARS of formal training in saber fencing?

4. That only the Force allowed her to get the upper hand;

Why would the Force give her the upper hand when she had ZERO training in using it?

5. That she did not defeat Kylo;

We are watching the same movie, correct?

6. That she fended for herself using a staff for years on Jakku, unlike farm boy Luke.

Wielding a staff does not equate to wielding a light saber. Duh.

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He's hardly a Gary Stu; in IV and V he was basically failing the entire time, pulling through with the help of his friends and sheer luck.

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True. He did fail all the time. In ESB, his rash decision to attempt to rescue his friends ultimately only serves to put them in greater danger. It's sheer luck that he didn't cause all their deaths.

That's why I don't get people so upset at Luke in TLJ with Ben. Luke fails again, and his luck runs out this time....

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