MovieChat Forums > The Keeping Room (2015) Discussion > The Confederacy Were The Bad Guys

The Confederacy Were The Bad Guys


Not the Union.

Arrow Season 4 is going to blow.

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...while I would say that generally, the Union had the higher ground on the moral issue of slavery, it isn't to say that the Union had practiced war any more "gentlemanly" than the Confederate counterparts. If anything, the Union may have been a bit more ruthless, with Sherman's March to the Sea, for example.

However, from the plot summary, it seems like the movie is attempting not to paint any broad strokes, but could be using only a couple of "bad apples" as the antagonists.

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I agree with most of what you have said, but it seemed as if the Confederate were more of the ruthless ones. People of the North were slightly better educated on moral values unlike the South. That's like saying the ghetto people versus upper middle class people, I'm betting my money on the ghetto being more ruthless.

State champ in martial arts, trained with firearms, I eFF'n dare you!

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"People of the North were slightly better educated on moral values unlike the South."

No, they weren't.

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Depends on where your family lived, what they believed, their reasons for fighting, and more. There are "good guys" and "bad guys" on both sides in any war.

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And the allies were "the good guys" over Nazi Germany, but that doesn't mean there weren't German victims. Thousands of innocent Germans died in Allied bombing attacks and thousands of girls were brutally raped by the Red Army. Who holds the moral high ground in a macro sense, does not mean every single situation in a large war shows one side morally superior to the other. Also civilians get stuck in the middle, and even if they are on the wrong side, they didn't choose the war, or decide to be a part of it. It was forced on them by twisted government leaders.

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I would have to agree with your assessment. Both sides committed horrific atrocities against the civilian populace. We are already aware of the actions of the Axis Powers (Germany, Italy, and Japan), but the Allied crimes are frequently ignored.

Great Britain, the US, and particularly Russia committed mass rapes against civilian women. Both; Great Britain and the US used carpetbombing against the German and Japanese populace as policy. There was absolutely no strategic advantage to dropping hundreds of tons of bombs upon the targeted cities other than hoping to demoralize civilians. On the contrary, the massive and savage bombings had the opposite effect-it only strengthened their resolve.

Similarly, the same applies to the nuclear bombs dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. The US could have easily dropped the bombs upon Tokyo, Kyoto, and other strategic cities where the Japanese Navy, Air Corps, or Army were stationed. Instead, they selected civilian targets. If a nation conducted such an operation against the US-we would call it an "act of terrorism."

Yes, the Japanese did launch an offensive strike against the US. But, at least they targeted military installations and avoided civilians.

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You mean military targets like Nanking?

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You mean military targets like Nanking?

Nanking, Rangoon, Hong Kong, Darwin &c. &c.
Japan could only reach mostly reach UK military outposts, but as with these examples, would have butchered any civilian center it could reach.

"I can't help but notice that there are skulls all over everything. Are we the baddies?"

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The red army weren't the good guys so it makes sense that they did a lot of brutal rapes. The red army was run by a man that history has shown was worse then Hitler and killed millions of people himself.

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I would say there were rapists on both sides.

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The fighting wasn't taking place primarily on northern territory, their women wouldn't be at near the risk the southern women were of being alone and having to fend for themselves in the middle of everything.

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Well I'm actually glad that union solders are the villains in this film because if it was the reverse the board would be full of right-wing nuts yelling about the movie being liberal propaganda.

The fact is that both sides had its bad characters as soilders. It was normal to have criminals, thieves and rapist as enlistees because a war needs numbers.

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Yes, they were the bad guys.

But it is in the favor of the powers that be to keep telling the South that they were WRONGED. They don't want the South to unite with the rest of the states.

Meanwhile the same powers a**rape them economically. They were used to destroy unionism for Free Trade. They rejoiced when manufacturing came to them without unions but then could not see that said manufacturing LEFT their area and the country to other nations.

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"Yes, they were the bad guys." To the extent that the Confederacy were fighting to preserve slavery, I agree. However, slaves were owned primarily by the Southern "powers that be," or were... the plantation-owning class. Many took up arms because they faced a fierce invading force at their doorstep. Some living in the South took up arms against an invading Confederate force, such as in East Tennessee where there were no plantations, that was pro-union despite the official succession of the state, that published abolitionist newspapers. The Confederates "took" Knoxville, and hung its pro-Union journalists from the bridge crossing the Tennessee river. In simpler terms, many in the south fought because they were trying to protect their homes and families, not to keep their slaves, as they had none, and didn't think highly of the big landowners. Were they bigots? Probably most were, just as probably most of the Union troops were. Bigotry and segregation has never only been a southern problem... it's an American problem. In fact, the south is the most integrated piece of the nation. Compare Berkley to Oakland. Economic segregation. Poverty makes for a great equalizer.

Nice economic points you make. The irony is that many U.S. manufacturers pulled out and moved to other "third world" destinations where they could pay even less, not face unions, and avoid regulations. European and Japanese manufacturers have moved into the southern states in the U.S. for the same reasons U.S. companies moved to various other "third world" countries... lower costs, less regulation, no unions to deal with. Anyone wanting to purchase a car made in America should probably buy Japanese or German... many of their companies are making their cars in America, in the southern states, while American companies are making them elsewhere. Weird world. I hope the OP is a troll. The original comment to this thread is too stupid and over-simplified to be serious.

The moon is dead. Long live the moon.

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In simpler terms, many in the south fought because they were trying to protect their homes and families, not to keep their slaves, as they had none, and didn't think highly of the big landowners. Were they bigots? Probably most were, just as probably most of the Union troops were.


The poor of the area were dupes and cannon fodder for the slaveholders. They also required proper wages for their labor. Which is the reason why the slaveholders wanted slavery. They didn't want to pay good wages to either white or black workers.

In fact, the south is the most integrated piece of the nation. Compare Berkley to Oakland. Economic segregation.


I'm not white. I've been all over this country. The South has, hands down, the most racism I've seen. I'm sorry, its true.

European and Japanese manufacturers have moved into the southern states in the U.S. for the same reasons U.S. companies moved to various other "third world" countries.


They have moved here for the same reasons American companies go to poor countries. To avoid their own taxes AND IMPORT taxation. When economies were balanced ALL strong first world countries were supported by IMPORT taxation. Which is why foreign made goods were expensive and home industries protected. But now with FREE TRADE all of it goes into the pockets of the rich and countries drown in red ink.

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"I'm not white. I've been all over this country. The South has, hands down, the most racism I've seen. I'm sorry, its true."

Ever live in Utah? Seriously, I am neither defending nor denying racism in the South. I've lived all over the South for most of my life. Now I don't. Where I now live, I hear smug remarks about racism in the South, and this place is more racist, or at least as much racist, as what I encountered in MY experience in the South. I am white, but I worked in a diverse environment, and the neighborhood in which I last lived, in Alabama, was lower middle class and was around %50/%50 black and white. I was a white man with black neighbors. It feels silly writing that, but friends of mine from elsewhere who are philosophically anti-racist cannot truthfully say that they work in a diverse environment and have black neighbors. Some will think I'm racist for using the term "black," but that is the term I've chosen to use ever since I had a black professor at the University of Tennessee who had been a black power man in Chicago in the 60s/70s, and insisted that we students use the term "black" rather than the term "African American," which he hated... much as Sherman Alexie prefers the term "Indian" over "Native American." There is racism, and certainly prejudice, which are two different things, as racism involves a power dynamic, in the South... in some areas more than in other areas. The South has a strange and complicated history and present. Still, I assert with a SHOUT that racism is an American problem, and not just a Southern problem, and it has been from the beginning. I too have been around, have friends in so-called progressive cities like Portland and in the Bay area... places that price the likes of me out. Find me a neighborhood in either of these areas as peacefully integrated as the neighborhood I lived in while in Alabama... and I'm talking black and white integration, not Latino, Asian, Turkish, whatever else. How many black men have been gunned down by police in Oakland while lily white (or Asian) San Fran and Berkley are protected by the economic wall of segregation, which differs radically from old Jim Crow and the lynching tree, but still gets the job done, eh? Price 'em out. If I get defensive about the South, it is mostly because I cannot stand hypocrites mouthing off about it without ever having lived in a truly diverse place. Where I now live, I've heard bigots use the "N" word (mostly when President Obama was elected) and about the only place that a person of color might be found is around the homeless shelter in the one almost urban nearby city. I, a Southerner, want to spit in the faces of these non-Southern bigots using that word. It just isn't simple. I'm sorry, but it's true.

The moon is dead. Long live the moon.

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I lived on the Alabama border as a child, it was vile.

I've never had a problem in NYC or Philadelphia. I found New Mexico kind of iffy in some spots. No problems in Colorado.

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I'm not black. I've been all over this country. The North and West have without a doubt the most racism I've seen. I'm not sorry, because I speak facts and the truth.

You want racism? try New York City, Philadelphia, Boston and Washington D.C. Everybody hates everybody. I guess that at least keeps things even. There are 138 languages in Queens, and everybody stays in their own blocks. Everybody has pejorative names for everybody else. They say that New York is the only place in the country where blacks have somebody to look down on -- the Puerto Ricans. The blacks call the PRs spicks and the Italians whops. Everybody calls blacks *beep* Asians are called chinks and slopes, and they use all the other names for everybody else. You don't date our of your race, or you get beat up (if you're lucky). Nobody trusts anybody except maybe some of their own kind, and even that is dogy. Los Angeles has the beaners and blacks hating and fighting and killing, and they both hate the whites and Asians, who in turn hate them right back.

To me it all goes to make Alabama and Mississippi tame as an old dog and downright peaceful.



I tried to contain myself but I escaped.

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I've lived in NYC and visited Philadelphia. Never a problem.

I've grown up on the Alabama border. Hands down more racism than the North. Ditto for Savannah, which was the most toxic place I have ever visited down South.

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I've read through enough of your posts on other boards to see that you are never wrong, so I will have to accept that my own experiences, as they differ radically from yours, are somehow delusional.

I am very happy that you are wise enough to hate the vile and toxic South, and particularly Savannah, a little town that I am fond of. I sincerely hope that you never have to visit any Southern locale again, now that you've found that racial harmony is in full bloom throughout the rest of the country, except for perhaps a few iffy spots in New Mexico.

If you notice that the people living in the housing projects have darker skin than the people in the gated communities and the hip expensive chic urban apartments... don't let it concern you, as I am sure the racial divisions are mutually agreed upon and in the best interests of all, enhancing equality by being very separate and very unequal.

Don't let silly ideas about racism outside of the South into your mind when you read about another unarmed black man being shot or assaulted by police. If it doesn't happen in the South, race wouldn't be a factor, unless meant as expression of acceptance, the peaceful giving of a bullet or a little rough love.

Have a nice life on the Good Ship Lollipop.



The moon is dead. Long live the moon.

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I am very happy that you are wise enough to hate the vile and toxic South, and particularly Savannah, a little town that I am fond of. I sincerely hope that you never have to visit any Southern locale again, now that you've found that racial harmony is in full bloom throughout the rest of the country,


BINGO. You proved me right.

If you notice that the people living in the housing projects have darker skin than the people in the gated communities and the hip expensive chic urban apartments... don't let it concern you, as I am sure the racial divisions are mutually agreed upon and in the best interests of all, enhancing equality by being very separate and very unequal.


Nice Strawman there that you built and attribute to me. Completely negating my personal experience as a child. But this segregation you speak of exists all over. Some of the ghettoization is done by the groups themselves and some by racism.

Don't let silly ideas about racism outside of the South into your mind when you read about another unarmed black man being shot or assaulted by police. If it doesn't happen in the South, race wouldn't be a factor, unless meant as expression of acceptance, the peaceful giving of a bullet or a little rough love.


Racism exists all over. Except it is only the South that saw fit to tear apart the United States to keep it institutionalized and legal.

Have a nice life on the Good Ship Lollipop.


The only one on it is you, thinking that the South is better than the North. Lived in both places, in my experience the South is the worst.

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... and you're never wrong, except that you greatly over-simplify when you write of "the South," as if you see a block of the nation as a homogeneous whole where everyone is in lockstep with everyone else, vile, bigoted, toxic, despite the fact that a great number of counties throughout the "deep South" are majority African American. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg

I'm not so stupid that I don't know that the southern states were the last to cling to slavery, though they weren't the first or the only states or territories to have slaves, and the Puritans that first settled up north felt that owning slaves was sanctioned by the Bible. I am also aware of the Civil War, or should I call it The War Between the States just to irritate you, though it is true that the country wasn't a union in the same way before the war as it was to be after the war. Unlike some idiotic unreconstructed Southerns, I am not stupid enough to posit that slavery had little to do with the war. The Southern upper class didn't care for industrialism and wanted to maintain the agrarian economy and lifestyle that sat like a boulder on the backs of Africans they somehow felt they had the right to purchase and work like animals, beasts of burden. Likewise, I am sure you are not so stupid as to think that the Civil War was solely an abolitionist fight to free and grant equal rights to the slaves. If you think this, you are wrong.

The North has much to be ashamed of concerning the so-called reconstruction after the war, and the carnage and atrocities perpetrated on the general populace in more urban areas, such as Atlanta, most of whom, as always with war, were not of the landed class and had no real stake in the politics and economics that brought the war about but were merely swept up by it, and even the fleeing slaves looking for protection only to find that hatred and cruelty wears blue as well as gray. Some of the Reconstruction tactics appear to be intended to fuel the flames of race hate. Booker T. Washington lamented some of these tactics and feared the inevitable results.

The South has much more reason to be ashamed of its treatment of blacks during the horrible years of Jim Crow and the lynch mob, and creating a new form of plantation and industrial slavery using petty law infractions and the prison system, after reconstruction was stopped and the U.S. president, Woodrow Wilson, a Virginian and a Calvinist, who prior to his presidency was a professor working in the burnt ruins of Columbia, SC. showed the film, Birth of a Nation, at the White House, a film that shows a heroic Ku Klux Klan saving the chaste purity of white women from Reconstruction-empowered blacks who dared to forget they were only puppets in a twisted game. The original Ku Klux Klan lasted only a short time, but after this film, a second KKK was hatched that was nationwide and popular, and added all new immigrants and Catholics and Jews to the list of people to hate and terrorize.

Then came the shameful Fifties and Sixties, when the KKK aligned with law enforcement and the power elite in the South to squash the civil rights movement. Nor was it pretty in the Northern and MidWestern cities to where large numbers of blacks went looking for a better life, and the fight for civil rights was happening there too, with leaders wanting nothing to do with nonviolence. Average Joe was sitting in front of the television watching news or murder, church bombings, non-violent protesters being beaten in the South, rioting and blacks marching, looting and setting buildings ablaze in the cities of the North and Midwest... it must have looked to many like a race war was on the horizon. It's an ugly history.

Now, we have a black president, a man for whom I cast a vote, twice, despite many disappointments, but the huge inequality problem based on so-called "race" in the U.S. is still a serious problem because the game has been rigged for so long to keep things unequal. Aggressive affirmative action is the only way I can see to budge it, and that, like Reconstruction after the Civil War, will not go down smoothly because the whole system is, and has for a long time been, designed to make a certain class and color (and gender) of people "more qualified." Advancing the institutionally disadvantaged "less qualified" based on "race" will once again breed hate in those who are more qualified but stepped over, because self-interest trumps the greater good in the U.S.A. An "invisible hand" is supposed to sort it all out.

I am not proud of Southern bigots... it's just that, since my school days in a small rural town where ignorance and poverty were rampant, I haven't known any, despite having lived most of my adult life in the South, in three different Southern states, in areas where blacks and whites are integrated into each others lives much more so than anywhere else I've lived or visited. I was surrounded by a newer generation of people, much more educated than our elders, who wanted nothing to do with the ignorant attitudes of older generations concerning crap like race fear/hate, a new generation who wanted a Southern identity to be proud of that included inclusiveness of blacks and whites, and the contributions of each to great music, literature and art.

There are many wonderful people living in the South, including my family and friends (black and white). There is diversity, not only of ethnicity, but of ideas, same as most anywhere else in the U.S.

Your childhood experiences inform you about particular places at particular times, and you inflate them into big sweeping statements about many other people and other places within that geographical block we call the South, and that over-generalization is what I'm dismissing. You took the first swipe by dismissing my experiences with your smug, "I'm sorry. It's true."

Guess what! You are smart, but if you were a lot smarter you'd realize that you don't know everything. I can't believe you have the nerve to call me out on dismissing your childhood experiences after you'd just dismissed mine, and insulted me and everybody I love with your largely ignorant slamming of Southerners in general, as if the only reality is summed up by your personal experiences and you can simply generalize from that. I imagine a lot of racists make that same leap.

I also love how you claim I prove you right because I say I hope you never have to return to the South. Southerns don't want people who hate them being there talking about how much the South sucks. I guess that means we are racists and don't want any of them outside agitator types comin' down here tellin' us how to think. Seriously though, I don't want you down there because there are people I like there, and you are very irritating and possibly psychotic.

Now, if you must, respond with the typical faux internet argument (no one gives an inch, persuasion isn't possible)... pick this reply apart and feed it to the crows for all I care... I won't see your response. I've wasted too much time on you and this already and I have far better things to do than being rude to strangers on the internet, and far nicer things to look upon than a screen full of insults thrown at me. Bye.

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despite the fact that a great number of counties throughout the "deep South" are majority African American.


Who up until the 60s were tied under Jim Crow laws. There were huge fights to gain civil rights with death involved. Even in the 70s my mother was told at a Motel that there were no vacancies for white people even though there were available rooms. But those were only for black people. She insisted on one of those rooms.

Where I lived on the Alabama/Florida border was Klan country. Is it a child's fault for being browner than white or having different shaped eyes? I lived among the middle class not the poor or uneducated. Even still my teacher in those days had to stand watch over me at school because I was bullied. I got my own back when she couldn't protect me even though I was a girl. The South made me tough, I had to be. If you are white, you'll never see it. If you are not, then you were incredibly lucky in where you were raised.

My experience in Savannah was also among the middle class. So poor education and lack of money cannot be blamed for their small mindedness.

Your childhood experiences inform you about particular places at particular times, and you inflate them into big sweeping statements about many other people and other places within that geographical block we call the South, and that over-generalization is what I'm dismissing.


The past is always present. I'm not inflating the waving of the confederate flag in many parts of the South. Or that they still boo hoo that they were wronged. And ever since have done nothing but oppose everything and go against the grain to their own detriment. It was the South's opposition to unionism (to the elites greedy delight) that made FREE TRADE possible. Then they had to watch industry slide away because they greased the wheels that allowed American companies to leave the US. Talk about cutting off the nose to spite the face. Yeah, they really showed the Northern states didn't they? What do they have to show for it now? They were and still are some of the poorest states in the country. That didn't have to be, but you know....they were wronged.

Southerns don't want people who hate them being there talking about how much the South sucks. I guess that means we are racists and don't want any of them outside agitator types comin' down here tellin' us how to think. Seriously though, I don't want you down there because there are people I like there, and you are very irritating and possibly psychotic.


But they never fail to call out yankees and display passive aggressiveness. The North doesn't think about the South except as a welfare drag. Believe me New York and the rest would rather keep the money from their own taxation rather than share. But that is called unification.

I won't see your response. I've wasted too much time on you and this already and I have far better things to do than being rude to strangers on the internet, and far nicer things to look upon than a screen full of insults thrown at me.


Its a sad day when the truth is considered an insult thrown at people.

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You've been reading too many "authors of color" who have an agenda about black history, and that agenda isn't interested in the truth.

There is an impressive list of cities of the northeast, such as Reading, Pennsylvania, which are nearly ghost towns because of economic decline, while there has been a surge of business and industry moving into the South.

Unions being rejected by workers has had a lot to do with this success along with favorable tax bases, lower land prices, lower crime, and more dependable work forces. It is the North that stubbornly refused to recognize that unions had grown fat, demanding, corrupt, and tyrannical and clung to the liberal model of demonizing business management and creating an enemy out of profit, resulting in chasing business south. While unions were needed and relevant when they began, today they are antiquated, greedy, and out of touch with the times, which is why state legislatures are passing laws restricting or eliminating them. Liberal, leftist Democratic governments in all the big cities have resulted in business decline as well as deterioration of once proud urban areas such as Chicago, Detroit (and its surrounding towns), Baltimore, and Philadelphia, which get so much bad publicity that they can no longer attract business.

Where did you get the absurd idea that the North "shares" their tax income with the South? BTW, welfare is handled by the individual states, so it is impossible that the North would be "dragged" by any Southern welfare.

You have failed in your efforts to label the South as more racist than the rest of the country. Take some legitimate courses at an accredited school and stay away from homemade charlatans who's primary interest is filling people's heads with bellicose, racist propaganda in order to sell books and lectures to their "target" audiences.

I tried to contain myself but I escaped.

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You've been reading too many "authors of color" who have an agenda about black history, and that agenda isn't interested in the truth.


No, just being real.

It is all economics and power bases for the rich. And the rich in that time wanted slaves so they wouldn't have to pay proper wages. And they got the middle class and poor whites all riled up to support them hence the war.


There is an impressive list of cities of the northeast, such as Reading, Pennsylvania, which are nearly ghost towns because of economic decline, while there has been a surge of business and industry moving into the South.


And where are all those factories now? CHINA, VIETNAM, INDONESIA. Are they southern folk now? Or more likely people who aren't paid proper wages for their work.

Proper Wages. Gee where is that familiar?

The South was used as a dupe to break the North unions and pave the way for FREE TRADE. FREE TRADING right out of the South US and to Asia.

Congrats South, you just cut off your own noses to spite everyone else. Because ya all was wronged! OH THE HUMANITY!

Liberal, leftist Democratic governments in all the big cities have resulted in business decline as well as deterioration of once proud urban areas such as Chicago, Detroit (and its surrounding towns), Baltimore, and Philadelphia, which get so much bad publicity that they can no longer attract business.


Absolutely NOTHING to do with Liberalism. But all to do with Chicago School of Business FREE TRADE/SHOCK DOCTRINE. The real liberals control nothing and haven't since the 1980s when Reagan took power.


Where did you get the absurd idea that the North "shares" their tax income with the South? BTW, welfare is handled by the individual states, so it is impossible that the North would be "dragged" by any Southern welfare.


http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/which-states-are-givers-and-which-are-takers/361668/

Does the Atlantic Monthly lie? Just in case you state that The Atlantic is a bastion of "liberalism" Here is FOX News take

http://www.foxbusiness.com/government/2012/08/03/states-that-get-most-federal-money/

South still in the top 10. So where do you think all that booty is coming from? It sure isn't the South who saw almost all their industry run to ASIA. The only thing Virginia can count on is Defense which sucks on the teat of TAXES. And even still the Defense industry wants to run to ASIA.

You have failed in your efforts to label the South as more racist than the rest of the country. Take some legitimate courses at an accredited school and stay away from homemade charlatans who's primary interest is filling people's heads with bellicose, racist propaganda in order to sell books and lectures to their "target" audiences.


No, I suggest you look at reality.

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Just because you didn't have a problem doesn't mean they don't exist. The south is Zen commune compared to the overt violence of the big cities of the north. I grew up in Tennessee, born in Philadelphia, and lived in NY and LA. Spend some time on the subways and the stations. The fact that you're "not white" may help you stay safe, but you can still observe...

I tried to contain myself but I escaped.

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There are bad guys on each side. Americans are the Good Guys but look up the story of Steven Green. Not too good, is he?

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This discussion has nothing to do with Seven Green or comparing Americans to other countries. Are you starting another topic?

I tried to contain myself but I escaped.

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