MovieChat Forums > Field of Lost Shoes (2015) Discussion > People who still believe the war was fou...

People who still believe the war was fought over slavery...


People still believe this myth that the North was fighting to free the slaves, and the Confederacy was all trying to enforce slavery. That is not true.

Read Lincoln's views on race. The South was fighting in the defensive. I don't understand how anyone could compare them to the Nazis either. That is ridiculous in so many ways. The Nazis was as far left wing socialist group that wanted world domination. The Confederacy was fighting for independence from an oppressive centralized Government.

It would be apt to compare the Federals to the Nazis- considering how Sherman marched through the South and destroyed and burned everything in his path. Many women of black and white were raped by Union soldiers.

But I will close with what Lincoln said in his OWN words:
"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.

"I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man."

"I thought that in your struggle for the Union, to whatever extent the negroes should cease helping the enemy, to that extent it weakened the enemy in his resistance to you. Do you think differently? I thought that whatever negroes can be got to do as soldiers, leaves just so much less for white soldiers to do, in saving the Union. Does it appear otherwise to you? But negroes, like other people, act upon motives. Why should they do any thing for us, if we will do nothing for them? If they stake their lives for us, they must be prompted by the strongest motive—even the promise of freedom. And the promise being made, must be kept."

-Abe Lincoln. "The Great Emancipator"

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Silly,
All you have to do is read the articles of Secession to find the truth. Confederates make it very clear that they left because Lincoln threatened the institution that was the lifeblood of their society: http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/secession/ The Confederates aren't lying.

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Exactly, and they weren't on the defensive until the very end. They fired the first shots, as well as invaded the North which culminated at Gettysburg. Not sure how that's defensive.

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That is false. They were on the defensive. Every historian- even pro Northern Historian agrees on that.

They were taking back Fort Sumter.
And the South was invaded by force. Did you not read about Sherman's march?
Did the South burn thousands of acres of Northern farmland, rape the women, and destroy towns and cities and starve the civilians? No, it was the North that did that to the South.



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They were taking back Fort Sumter.
????? Please explain.

Don't explain with malice what you can explain with stupidity

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That doesn't speak for all Confederates. Less than 30% of Southerners owned slaves. Many Negroes were free long before the War was fought- under that position, also many Negroes fought for the Confederacy.

The Northern invasion was hideous. Also Jefferson Davis himself said "We fight not for slavery, but for independence".


Here is a Confederate Solider in his own words:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPiDqUB9k1I

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You are operating under the assumption that being anti-slave means that you are pro black. Just because you are not an ardent supporter of equality doesn't you follow suit on slavery. Lincoln believed many things about slavery at different times. For every practical quote on slavery there is one about its injustice and inhumanity. So to act like one quote nails down Lincoln's view on slavery is absurd. And ask the people of Chambersburg or the free blacks of Pennsylvania kidnapped and sold into slavery how defensive or non-Nazi was the South.

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It wasn't just one quote. There are several quotes from Lincoln about his views on slavery and his views on race. When presented with these quotes directly from him, like most Northern revisionists, you do nothing but make excuses and suppositions for him. The quotes speak for themselves.

And the point is, its evidence that the War wasn't really fought over slavery, because Lincoln was not anti-slavery anyway. He wanted to preserve the Union at all costs. He saw ending slavery as a way to destroy the South completely and bring it back on its knees. The ECP wasn't even written until 1863. If it had been written before the start of the War, then people would have a just cause to believe that slavery was the determining factor.


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RvaBread22,

What motivated Northern men to enlist in 1861 (and for many of them to reenlist later) and fight against the South in the Civil War? What motivated many Irish and German immigrants to fight for the North instead of the South? And if slavery was not an issue to the South, what motivated Black men to enlist in the Union Army?

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LOl. The immigrants were forced into War by Lincoln who drafted them. They were not fighting to free slaves, I can assure you that. Did you not know also there are many Germans and Irish who fought in the Confederacy as well? Also, Southern Blacks were conscripted against their will to fight in the Federal Army. The goal was to end succession and preserve the Union- BY FORCE.

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Thanks for the response but it doesn't really answer my question. According to civilwar.org, 2,128,948 men served in the Union Army during the war. Do you believe all of these men were "drafted" and "conscripted" by President Lincoln? If they were all drafted, that's amazing; I don't believe there was even that high a draft rate in WWI and WWII put together.

I'm aware of immigrants who fought for the South but I'd like to keep this discussion to Union soldiers, if you don't mind. Have a good afternoon.

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No, not all of them, but many were. The draft was big on both sides. Many men didn't want to fight, but did.

Here is a quote from Charles Dickens for you:


“The Northern onslaught upon slavery was no more than a piece of specious humbug designed to conceal its desire for economic control of the Southern states.” Charles Dickens, 1862

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Yes, there was a draft in both the North and the South in both cases, most of the men were not drafted. However, the first draft in American history was in the Confederacy (in 1862, IIRC) and that draft actually spurred enlistment because many men didn't want the stigma of having to be known as having to be forced to take up arms.

The Union's first draft did not take place until 1863, well into the war. By January 1, 1863, the Union Army had almost 700,000 men and to my knowledge, these were all regular army and volunteer soldiers... not draftees. So what did these men fight for and why was their cause so important to them that they would risk their lives for it?

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They were fighting to preserve the Union. Also since the War was not going well for the North, Lincoln pulled the out "slavery cause" routine . When in fact he just stated early on that he would allow the South to keep their servants if they simply stayed in the Union. The immigrants had no interest in slavery one way or the other.


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You're dead right, RvaBread22. Your quotations from Lincoln are accurate. He was fanatic about preserving the Union.

But there's more.
Many Union volunteers joined up because they thought the war was meant to free the slaves. Uncle Tom's Cabin stirred up an emotional hemorrhage in the North, even though there were actually slave owners in several Union States.

The Articles of Confederation characterized the United States as a "perpetual Union," but the Constitution does not. Ergo, the Confederate States had a clear Constitutional right to secede from the Union which the States created.

The flagrantly touted Emancipation Proclamation did not free a single slave, black, white, or red. It specifically applied only to the Southern Confederate States, where he had no jurisdiction. Lincoln and the Congress acknowledged that lack of jurisdiction by declaring war, which established the fact that the Confederacy was a foreign nation.

The eventual emancipation of slaves, which became effective only when the war officially ended, was the greatest disservice that could have been done to the Negroes. It left them destitute, homeless, uneducated, and without marketable job skills. Granted, they were slaves, absolutely owned by their masters. But under the slave system, the slaves had food, clothing, a roof over their heads, steady employment, and medical care when needed.


**
Send your camel to bed, and don't step on my starfish.

Sandman

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If Lincoln had written the ECP before 1861, I could understand people's perception that the war was solidly based on slavery issues.


If Federal troops were fighting because of ending slavery- why did they rape them? Why were Southern Negroes conscripted against their will to fight in the Union Army? Why did they pillage, burn , destroy, and annihilate Southern farmland, towns and cities? It seems to me the purpose was not to end slavery, but to end succession and bring the South back into the Union.

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It was Harriett Beecher Stowe's stinking book that stirred up that perception. Granted, we invaded Maryland and Pennsylvania. But our troops didn't murder and rape civilians. We didn't loot and burn private homes. We didn't burn down civilian homes and then shoot the women, children, and slaves who ran out.
And the War didn't end slavery. It only ended Negro slavery. There are hundreds of thousands of slaves living in America today.
**
Send your camel to bed, and don't step on my starfish.

Sandman

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Well all of that is true. Most people don't know the real version of events because the official history was written by the Victor.


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History is always written by the victors. In the War of Northern Aggression, the Northern invasion was carried out by Classic Roman protocols; i.e., total destruction of everything, rape, murder, and death to all inhabitants. Especially Sherman's march. If he had been in Grant's position, all of Dixie would have been a barren ruin, from Richmond to Brownsville, just as Carthage was.

Another salient point is Reconstruction. The States of Dixie were punished for sixteen years, and made to pay reparation in order to get back into the Union, which the Yankee government claimed they never left in the first place.
**
Send your camel to bed, and don't step on my starfish.

Sandman

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Someone who thinks history is written by the victors has no business talking about the War of the Rebellion, given the great amount of it's history written by the losers. For instance the memoirs of Davis, Hood, Alexander, Longstreet and many others and the many articles written by ex rebels in various journals and magazines.

I think anything said by old Sandman can thus be disregarded, he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about. Just a crank, discussion of the slave owners rebellion brings them out like cockroaches.

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I'm just a crank who don't know what I'm taking about. I can be disregarded because three of my great-grandfathers fought in the War Between the States, as did my next door neighbor, and one of them was killed in that war. Only one of my four great-grandfathers was a slave owner.

One of my great-grandmothers had her home burned down by Yankee soldiers while she was trapped inside. One of her slaves ran back inside to bring her out, and was shot by a Yankee soldier for doing so. He was a lousy shot, for she lived to tell me about the experience when I was a young child.

And I've read Davis, Hood, and Longstreet. And I have taught American Hustory
But they were not writing "history." "History" is what the textbooks say it is; and the textbooks certainly do not present both sides of the conflict, only the officially recognized Union side.

But of course I can be discounted because I'm just an old crank, and I don't know what I'm talking about.

Sandman
**
Whatever doesn't kill me had better start running.

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the War Between the States
??????????

And what was that? Yet ANOTHER euphemism for the Civil War?
One of her slaves ran back inside to bring her out, and was shot by a Yankee soldier for doing so. He was a lousy shot, for she lived to tell me about the experience when I was a young child.
Hahaha, GIVE ME A BREAK MAN 😂😪😅
I don't know what I'm talking about.
Indeed, you DON'T.

Don't explain with malice what you can explain with stupidity

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Is that all you've got?
I knew people who were IN the war, combatants and a civilian victim. You've got nothing but the brainwash that the Yankee "historians" have foisted off on America.
Don't try to teach your grandpa to break eggs.
You're fired.

Sandman
**
I call your attention to the sprig of mistletoe which is attached to my coattail.

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I knew people who were IN the war, combatants and a civilian victim.
"In the War" as in; the American Civil War?

Care to substantiate this RIDICULOUS statement, Donald Trump?

Don't explain with malice what you can explain with stupidity

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The only way I can substantiate it is by reminding you of what I've already posted.

Three of my great-grandfathers fought in the War Between the States, as did my next door neighbor, and one of them was killed in that war. Only one of my four great-grandfathers was a slave owner. I remember two of my great-grandfathers telling me about being in the war.

One of my great-grandmothers had her home burned down by Yankee soldiers while she was trapped inside. One of her slaves ran back inside to bring her out, and was shot by a Yankee soldier for doing so. He was a lousy shot, for she lived to tell me about the experience when I was a young child. And a Confederate veteran lived next door to my childhood home. A bunch of us young boys used to visit him, just to hear him talk about the War. He died a age 107.

I can't cite a source for any of this; it's what I remember from my childhood. Four people who lived through the War, three of them my relatives, told me about it.

If you called my family "ridiculous" to my face, I could spit in your eye.

The anonymity of the Internet protects cowards.

Sandman
**
Don't sweat the petty things; and don't pet the sweaty things.

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Yes, and I asked you to substantiate;

He was a lousy shot, for she lived to tell me about the experience when I was a young child
A bunch of us young boys used to visit him, just to hear him talk about the War. He died a age 107.
 I remember two of my great-grandfathers telling me about being in the war.
I am yet to hear some DATES and AGES.

Also, said "former slave" was affectionately called just that - "our former slave" I gather? Was it - to her face? What was her reaction?

You didn't identify THE STATE where all this took place. Was it by any chance; Texas?
If you called my family "ridiculous" to my face
What can I say; I would expect a retired English teacher to have a somewhat better grasp of the written word.
Care to substantiate this RIDICULOUS statement, Donald Trump? 
Unless "a statement" means the same as "a family" in Texas....you got it wrong.

Don't explain with malice what you can explain with stupidity

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was affectionately called just that - "our former slave" I gather? Was it - to her face? What was her reaction?

Clearly no amount of verification is going to change your view, but here's a bit of specification anyway.
The former slave woman lived with my great-grandmother in Navasota, Texas as a salaried servant woman (room and board and a stipend). To her face she was called Mozelle; that was her name. The burnout and shooting took place in Atlanta, Georgia when Sherman's army was raping and murdering civilians and slaves.

One of my great-grandfathers lived in Cheetham, Texas; one in San Antonio, Texas. They are the ones whom I knew as a child, and who told me and my brother about their wartime experiences. Another was killed at Shiloh. The fourth one did not enlist in the Confederate Army, and he died before I was born.

My next door neighbor lived in Houston Heights, Texas, where had had migrated from Tennessee after the War. He had been a forage master, equivalent to the rank of master sergeant, under the command of General Nathan Bedford Forrest.

So, yes, all my memories of people who lived through the War are Texas memories.

Perhaps you are confused about dates. I was born less than 70 years after the War ended. It should not surprise you that some of the survivors were still alive.

And the fact still stands that the War was fought to preserve the Union; freeing the slaves was a concomitant result.

Sandman
**
Don't sweat the petty things; and don't pet the sweaty things.

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The war itself, from the northern pov was of secession, very similar to the 1774 - 1781 war of independence. But secession itself was motivated by slavery & its importance to the southern economy & culture. One need only read what the founders of the Confederacy actually said & wrote on the subject. Furthermore, speaking of Union "aggression" how does that compare with the ramifications of the Dred Scott decision which stated that Congress had no right to restrict slavery anywhere in the Union?

Regardless of what the US Constitution says or doesn't say on the subject, there is no "right of secession" unless won by force of arms. The United States won, the Confederacy lost. I'm always amused by pissing & moaning of Lost Causers at how the south was treated in the war--Sherman's March, reconstruction, etc.. Funny how the founding fathers knew damned well they were committing treason in their rebellion against the king & were under no illusions about what their fates would be if they lost, "Hang together or hang separately." But southerners are still aggrieved at not getting gentle treatment after initiating a war that cost nearly three quarters of a million lives?

I think the framers the Confederacy knew that their greatest advantages--interior lines of communication, no strategic need to invade the north, simply maintaining armies in the field = victory--were also their greatest liabilities, because should the war not go their way of course the south would have to be invaded & subjugated by military force. Otherwise they could have surrendered anytime after Gettysburg & Vicksburg, when it became clear a military victory over the north wasn't in the works & recognition from Europe not forthcoming. Instead they chose to fight on, sacrificing countless lives in the vague & dismal hope that Lincoln would fail to be reelected in '64 & a war-weary north would leave them go.

Wrt heritage, my father, my uncles, even some of my older cousins all fought in the army & Marines, mostly in the Pacific theater. Their experiences gave me some insights into the quotidian lives of men on the ground during that war, but none whatever into its causes, politics & strategic overlays. How could it? They were too close. They saw what was in front of them. That's all.

Finally, I'm always curious to know what Lost Causers believe would have happened to a successful Confederacy. Once the precedent of secession takes place, what's to stop say Texas from quarreling with Louisiana & deciding it's better off as an independent republic? Or folks in the Hill Country (where I lived for a couple years) deciding the rest of the state didn't have their best interests at heart, & deciding to split Texas itself into mini-republics? How, in short, does a Confederacy maintain any sort of unity & prevent an eventual descent into anarchy?

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OK, the War ended 149 years, 4 months, and one week ago, and we lost.
Even my demigod Winston Churchill acknowledged that conquest by force of arms trumps everything else.

There was no Geneva Convention, so I have no grounds to blame the deliberate and calculated viciousness of the Invasion and Reconstruction. But even in the 19th century the wholesale slaughter of civilian women and children was blameworthy. And I still resent my great-grandmother's home being burnt down with her still in it.

As to Texas, the State still has the legal right to subdivide itself into five separate States. Although Texas reserved the right, by treaty, to secede; it lost that right by conquest in 1865. I'm forced to acknowledge that. You can call me a Lost Causer, a disciple of St, Jude.

Nonetheless, legally and Constitutionally, the Southern States were within their rights. The Constitution does not prohibit slavery or secession, or did not until the 13th Amendment was ratified.

I'm also forced to admit that, had the Confederacy won the War, the result would in all likelihood have been three separate republics: The United States, The Confederate States, and Texas. Even the strongest coalition thereof would have been much weaker against the Axis Powers in World Wars I and II, and we would probably be speaking German today.

But I'm still a Lost Causer, an unReconstructed rebel.

Sandman
**
Don't sweat the petty things; and don't pet the sweaty things.

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With all due respect to what happened to your great-grandmother I don't think "wholesale" is an appropriate term to describe the North's invasion of the south. After all, if wanton destruction was their aim they were certainly within their rights, per the Constitution to charge every southern soldier & sympathizer with treason--whether one today agrees that it was treason--the case could be made, & execute them, as some Republican radicals desired.

I apologize for specifying Texas. That was a mistake. I was aware of the Lone Star state's unusual arrangement upon joining the union. What I meant was, why would any part of a successful Confederacy maintain cohesion? Why would Florida continue to remain aligned with Alabama? Why would southern Louisiana maintain cohesion with the northern part of the state? Sure, during the war they had more interests in common than not, but once the war is over differences, once minor, become major. I think that is also true of the north. Why should Maine, for example, remain in a union once secession is demonstrated to be a valid way of resolving regional differences? Or Minnesota? Or any state on either side of the Mason-Dixon line?

It seems to me (& I know it did to some unionists then, e.g. Sherman) that secession was the doorway to anarchy on all sides.

Regarding slavery, the Constitution would have had to prohibit it. It was the Dred Scott decision more than the war that paved the way for the 13th Amendment. Slavery, it's been said often, was the gaping hole in the original Constitution that nearly tore it apart. Dred Scott demonstrated that vividly. The northern states, with their larger economy & population would have had to act against slavery Constitutionally because otherwise it would have become ubiquitous throughout the union. Once it was revealed that the Constitution, as written, didn't grant anyone the right to prohibit the spread of slavery, either war or complete abolition were inevitable.

I don't begrudge anyone pride in their heritage, however much I might disagree with what that heritage stood for, but I don't think the north sought war or aggression as much as they sought to maintain the union, understanding better than the south what the consequences of dissolution would entail.

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“Wholesale slaughter” seemed at the time to be underway. To some of us old-timers it still does.
+++++++++++
they were certainly within their rights, per the Constitution to charge every southern soldier & sympathizer with treason
++++++++++++++++++
The 14th amendment does that, and denies to every ex-Confederate citizen the right to hold public office.

Specifying Texas wasn’t a mistake; the point was well-taken. Interestingly, one county in Tennessee seceded from Tennessee, declaring itself loyal to the Union. From the vantage of 150 years, I have to agree that secession would have opened the door to potential Balkanization of America. In my three-nation scenario, I’m sure that California, and probably Nevada, would have seceded from the Republic of Texas in short order.
As both of us have said, maintaining the Union was after all the prime factor.
From a 20th/21st century viewpoint, I have to agree that slavery was--and still is--a shameful, horrific institution. However, had I been alive in the ante-bellum South, I might not have had the same opinion. It was a fossilized remnant, as old as Mankind. Still, slavery was only one issue that brought on the war, and a relatively minor one at that. It was a clash of economic and social systems that could not coexist without increasing friction. An emerging, industrialized, progressive society as against an agricultural, almost feudal way of life. Government control vs. self-reliant management of one’s own life and property (and yes, the slaves were property).

The leftover Confederate heritage is not a defense of slavery; it’s about the right of self determination, freedom from government micromanagement. We thought we were Sovereign States that had agreed by mutual consent to come together in a union that the States themselves had created. “Sovereign State” is now a meaningless rhetorical phrase. Slavery aside, the friction between government regulation and individual self-determination is not over yet. In a certain sense, the Civil War will never end. I don't want any government deciding whether I may drill my own water well, own a firearm, kill my own chickens, or cook my own eggs.

Sandman
**
Don't sweat the petty things; and don't pet the sweaty things.

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I certainly appreciate being able to discuss the southern POV here without the usual rancor & recrimination. I think you also make some strong points about self-determination & separation of powers. I find erosion of the latter in particular to be especially troubling. Even when the cause, e.g. using Interstate Commerce to reduce Jim Crow all over the country, it opens the door to further regulation.

I've lived in big cities my whole live--San Antonio was the smallest town I've ever called home--now in NYC. I get why hyperegulation is often necessary when folks live on top of one another. But similar rules don't have to apply to people in Alaska, or rural Oklahoma. Often they don't. But often enough they do, & I can understand the frustration people there must feel about having key aspects of their lives determined by legislators whose lives mirror their own in no significant way.

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Although I still resent the unnecessary viciousness of the invasion and of Reconstruction, I'm not big on rancor. It accomplishes nothing except to stir up emotion.
And I'm convinced that I'll never be able adequately to portray the Southern view of the conflict to a Northern advocate.

BTW, I mentioned my great-grandfathers. One of them was brought along when his family moved from Wisconsin to San Antonio because of the rural, semi-feudal, agricultural lifestyle.

I like your term, "hyperegulation." But I don't think it's ever justified. Only the absolute bare-bones minimum of necessary regulation is ever justified, although I know it's tempting to over-regulate in places where "folks live on top of one another."

"Using Interstate Commerce to reduce Jim Crow" is nothing less than using the end to justify the means. However admirable the ends may be, that's never acceptable, morally or philosophically.

As to legislators, I don't think there's ever a single one at any level who has the faintest clue to how their constituents live. But Ted Poe of Texas comes close.
If you can get your hands on an essay by Sisela Bok, titled "Lies For the Public Good," you might find it enlightening.

Pax.

Sandman
**
Don't sweat the petty things; and don't pet the sweaty things.

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My father's family arrived in the 1600s with a land grant from King Charles II, and fought in just about every conflict this country has been in including one who was a drummer boy for the Maryland Militia at Yorktown during the Revolutionary war and later marched on New Orleans with Andrew Jackson. But that doesn't make the entire family historians. Besides, if your family was here as long as mine, you would most likely have relatives who fought on both sides of the Civil War. I haven't heard anything about your Yankee/Northern sympathizer relatives.

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anything about your Yankee/Northern sympathizer relatives


OK, sized-2, you make a good point.

But I'm active on Geni, Wikitree, and Ancestry.dot.com; so far in a year or three of research, everything I can find is Southern. I haven't yet found any who were on the Yankee side during The War. By that time, all my paternal and maternal relatives had moved either to Dixie or to Texas. However, one of my maternal lines originated near Boston; but the descendants moved to Alabama and Georgia in the early 1700s.

The nearest I can come to a Yankee forebear is my mother's father's father. He was born in New York State (Cattaraugus County); the family moved to Wisconsin, and then to Texas when he was eight.

My direct paternal line goes only to the 1730s when my g-g-g-g-grandfather landed in Virginia. His grandsons fought the British during the Revolution, and later founded the State of Franklin and still later the State of Tennessee.

If I can find any Yankees, I don't think I would be moved to come back here and post that just to satisfy the doubters.

Sandman
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Don't sweat the petty things; and don't pet the sweaty things.

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[deleted]

[deleted]

Nonsense

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Sir. I'm truly tired of the revisionist altering the facts of the cause of the civil war.
Does any one ever mention the fact the Constitution of the CSA made the further importation of black slaves illegal??!!
You and I are fighting a lost cause. The war was fought for the same reason a civil war should be fought today; the ever expanding federal government.
Lincoln as some "great" liberator, ha!! Wiped his a$$ on the Constitution as our "President" does today, suspending habeous corpus at whim.
Before I rant...
It sickens me that so many Southern Men died, who never owned slaves, and never supported the act. Are portrayed as evil. When what they were fighting for was state sovereignty.

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You're half-right about the causes of the war--it was about the power of the federal government, but in this instance the limitation imposed on Congress by the Dred Scott decision, which meant that slavery could expand to every state of the union & Congress could do nothing to stop it. So the "self-determination" argument runs both ways, actually.

Banning further importation of slaves into the Confederacy makes a lot of sense when you consider there were already four million negroes in bondage there. What happens if they're continually imported & soon outnumber whites? If you're citing this an argument that the south didn't really support slavery, then you're also calling the founders & leaders of the Confederacy liars. One example, Alexander Stephens's "Cornerstone Speech" of 21 March 1861:

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. "

There are many other examples of southern leaders themselves citing slavery as the bedrock of the southern economy & culture.

The problem of Lincoln is that his priority was maintaining the union. No one, least of all him, should believe him to have been a "great liberator". That's a distortion of history, true. But it doesn't mean that the opposite supposition is somehow true--i.e. that he supported slavery or wished to "enslave" the south.

Frankly, I'm at a loss as to how you believe the southern cause or Confederates are portrayed as "evil". From The Birth of A Nation to Gone with the Wind, to Cold Mountain, Ride with the Devil, they're usually portrayed pretty sympathetically. Monuments to southern leaders abound in the south. Robert E Lee is treated by historians north & south as a sort of demigod, in spite of the reality that while he was at time brilliant, he also made more than his far share of blunders: e.g., historians who call Grant a "butcher" for Cold Harbor usually give Lee a pass on Pickett's Charge.

I certainly don't deny you pride in your (apparent) heritage, but that doesn't mean you're entitled to your facts about what happened & why.

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That is usually the problem with anyone taking a pro Confederate stance today, they don't realize just how hypocritical the South was at the time. They proclaimed states rights but wouldn't let the North use theirs to nullify the Fugitive Slave Act. The love to say "winners write the history" but don't realize that scholarship of the war was almost entirely all Southern for 70 years after the war. The Lost Cause wouldn't even have existed if winners wrote the history.

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"People still believe this myth that the North was fighting to free the slaves, and the Confederacy was all trying to enforce slavery. That is not true."


According to the Confederate States Constitution, it is true-


http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp


Article I, Section 9, Clause 4 of the Confederate States Constitution prohibited the Confederate government from restricting slavery in any way:


"No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed."


Article IV, Section 2 , Clause 1 also prohibited states from interfering with slavery:


"The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired." (So much for States Rights!)


Perhaps the most menacing provision of the Confederate States Constitution was the explicit protection Article IV, Section 3, Clause 3 offered to slavery in all future territories conquered or acquired by the Confederacy:


"The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several States; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected by Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States."


This provision ensured the perpetuation of slavery as long and as far as the Confederate States of America could extend it's political reach, and more then a few Confederates had their eyes fixed on Cuba and Central and South America as objects of future conquest.


Unlike the Confederate States Constitution, the United States Constitution freely permitted states to abolish slavery. If the day ever came when slavery was eliminated voluntarily throughout the United States of America, not one word of the United States Constitution would need to be changed, whereas slavery would never lawfully be abolished under the Confederate States Constitution.



"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."



That was from a letter President Lincoln wrote in response to a editorial written by Horace Greely, the antislavery editor of the New York Tribune.



I have no reason to doubt that in the immediate crisis of the War of the Rebellion, as the death tolls of Americans grew daily, President Lincoln would have adopted the quickest and surest measures to save the Union, even if those measures did not include abolishing slavery.



If President Lincoln could stop the slaughter and restore the Union without touching slavery, why should he not have done so? Had he been able to bring the war to a speedy end, slavery would once again be a problem to solve through peaceful political processes under the U.S. Constitution, slavery would remain an evil institution, and all the difficulties that attended the earlier attempts to eradicate it would remain as well, but this was a lesser evil then the bloody carnage happening daily on the fields of battles.



Furthermore, President Lincoln at that time had no lawful authority to engage in an antislavery crusade, as Mr. Greeley desired, and the majority of the American people would not have supported one. Thus, President Lincoln rightly told Mr. Greeley that he would do with regard to slavery whatever "helped to save the Union"



When President Lincoln said, "I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races" , he stated nothing but a political fact.

From the time he reentered national politics in 1854 until his 1860 campaign for president, Mr. Lincoln had in fact never proposed to "introduce political and social equality between the white and black races."

The core of his political platform was the proposal to prohibit slavery from spreading into the federal territories; in terms of policies related to slavery and race, President Lincoln only advocated repealing the Kansas-Nebraska Act, and restoring the Missouri Compromise.

On face value then, Mr. Lincoln's words are not a statement of racial supremacy; they only describe his campaign platform.


Further, while he said it was not his purpose in 1858 to "introduce political and social equality between the white and black races", President Lincoln never denied that he believed in their political and social equality, and he never said that he would not support policies of racial equality in the future should public opinion become more receptive to them.



"I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people."



In the context of his many other statements insisting on the equality of white and black people, it seems likely that his refusal to advocate such policies was more a matter of strategy then principle on his part: Mr. Lincoln knew that there was no possibility at all of getting such policies enacted into law, so why destroy his political career by proposing those polices to an audience that wanted nothing to do with them?

Nowhere did Mr. Lincoln suggest that such policies would be wrong. Nor did he deny that he might support such policies in the future, perhaps when the American mind had cleansed itself of some of the racial prejudice and was better prepared to entertain the full implications of human equality.

"And I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality."

Is there a physical difference between black and white human beings? Of course: black is black, and white is white. And while this simple difference of skin color, in itself, does not imply or require political and social inequality, the distinction of color in the United States of America at that time had become deeply entwined with slavery and questions of racial hierarchy. Mr. Lincoln was offering a sound sociological observation when he predicted that differing skin colors would "forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality."



"And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

President Lincoln did not endorse a political hierarchy based on race, but indicated that such hierarchy may be a "necessity" - an inescapable result of widespread racial opinions and assumptions.

In such a case, anyone of any color, when presented with a choice of having his or her race assigned a superior or an inferior position in a given society, with no option of equal citizenship, would choose to have his or her race in the superior position.

President Lincoln's assertion is the flip side of the obvious statement that no human being would wish to be enslaved. That in no way proves that President Lincoln did not believe in the equality of rights of all humans of all colors or that he did not hope American opinion would someday move in the direction of equal citizenship of all people of all colors. It simply demonstrates that so long as necessity required that there be an unjust hierarchy based on color, and as long as the American people rejected color-blindness, President Lincoln, like anyone else, would rather be on top then on bottom if forced to choose.




Getting American audiences to listen and then persuading them of the equality of black people would require great, and perhaps unprecedented, rhetorical skills. No one, however, was more calculating in crafting his speech then President Lincoln as he attempted to refute the new pro-slavery arguments while moving public opinion, without insulting the public, back in the direction of the founding principle of human equality.



President Lincoln's challenge was to move opinions back toward the principles of the United States Declaration of Independence while avoiding the fanaticism of abolitionism, and to uphold the rule of law and protection of property rights while avoiding the fanaticism of the pro-slavery camp. In this, Mr. Lincoln's skill was unmatched.



Please consider President Lincoln's qualification of his position. If Mr. Lincoln could move public opinion to grant this basic precept of political right, that black people have the right to own and acquire property, the other precepts of civil society and civil liberties could then be argued.



If President Lincoln could persuade Americans of all black people's equal humanity and natural rights, and if Americans were to act consistently with the terms of their own social contract, justice would demand either equal citizenship for black people or the right to freely emigrate from the United States. In either case holding black people as chattel slaves violated the first principle of the American's social contract - human equality.

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Comedy right here!!!

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