Question for athiests/agnostics - Left Behind (2014) Discussion

[–] thestrangebeauty 10 years ago

I definitely would.

That's probably the coolest thing about most atheists: we don't believe because there's no evidence, but if there WAS evidence, we totally would.

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[–] TheUltimateHippo (2250) 6 years ago

I do not consider myself a deeply religious person but I would be if there was ever any hard evidence that it’s all true. I’m not denying it is true, but if you are asking me to give my soul to someone I’d like to know beyond a reasonable doubt that it does exist. And I find the idea that anyone who doesn’t believe in Christianity is going to hell grossly offensive and I couldn’t care less if it’s in the Bible or not. That’s an incredibly bigoted attitude and by that logic at least 70 percent of the worlds population is going to burn.

And if it turns out that I am wrong and God really is merciful then he won't punish me for using the brain he gave me to question things and use my critical thinking skills. If he truly is loving then he'll understand why I felt the way I did and that I had every reason to believe that he didn't exist. If he expects people to worship him without every providing any proof that he exists and if you don't get in line then you are tortured for all eternity then that would make him an evil God. The truth is I would be willing to bet that there are a handful of Christians out there who are only Christian because they're afraid of what might happen if they aren't.

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[–] BillySlater (4097) 5 years ago

Interesting post. Why would he be an evil God? The people that believed in him will be with him and those that didn´t won´t be. Why would someone want to be with God in the afterlife if they didn´t believe in him while they were alive? I do agree there are probably "Christians" that are Christian because of fear of the after-life but they will be judged for who they truly were not who they claimed to be.

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[–] strangenstein (683) 4 years ago

Yours was an interesting response. Two thoughts for you:

1) It’s good you’re not very religious. God doesn’t want to have a religion with you, he wants to have a relationship.

2) God IS merciful, that’s why He sent Jesus. The issue with your statement is you’re judging God based on what YOU want him to be. It’s ok, many people do that. However, I recommend you take a little time and read about God. The Bible will give you insight. If you’re honest and open as you read it, you’re going to begin noticing things you don’t agree with. For example, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) He’s saying that He is the only way to heaven. If you disagree with that, ask yourself why. God wouldn’t make that claim? The Bible is flawed and/or corrupted? That’s exclusive? In order to find that statement false, you’ll have to make God out to be what YOU want him to be.

I mean no offense, and I hope I was able to explain this properly. I spent the first 25 years of my life making God be what I wanted Him to be. It wasn’t until I realized my own sinful nature that I began to search for Him. It was then I finally understood that being a “good” person isn’t the standard by which God would judge me. I can never measure up to God’s perfection. However, my sins can be forgotten by God because Jesus already paid the price for me.

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[–] teaguetod 10 years ago

Yeah, the scenario you have described would pretty well constitute 'proof' in my book, sufficient enough that I would (re-)convert to Christianity.

That's one of the really very, very stupid things about all 'Rapture' movies and books: they all assume that there aren't hundreds of millions of people like us: people who've heard but simply don't believe. In these narratives, everyone in the post-Rapture world (or the vast majority) just go along with the Antichrist, the Mark of the Beast, etc. What were all these people doing before? Was everybody raised as a Scientologist, or what?

Like they've never seen any one of ten 'Rapture' movies in their lives. Or The Omen. Or the remake of The Omen. Never heard of 666 (yeah I know, possibly 616). Or heard any heavy metal album in the past 30 years. Never heard Christians going on and on about the 'Rapture.' Never heard of The Late Great Planet Earth. Or heard about Harold Camping's predictions, when everybody was joking about it in 2011.

But when gajillions of people disappear off the face of the earth, they still don't stop to scratch their heads, and say, "Hmmm...." -- That's what makes all these books and movies ridiculous.

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[–] jlgreenlee 10 years ago

You're right. The characters in these stories are never genre-savvy. It's like zombie or vampire stories where the concept is brand new to the characters.

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[–] teaguetod 10 years ago

Thanks for that -- "genre-savvy" is a good way to put it.

_________
If we could see ourselves as others see us, we would vanish on the spot. - E.M. Cioran

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[–] mrpocketwatch 10 years ago

The Rapture would be great for two reasons.
1. It would finally give me proof.
2. All the snotty obnoxious Christians would vanish.

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[–] imdb-3754 10 years ago

2. All the snotty obnoxious Christians would vanish.

Or would they? Even in the books, not everyone who called themselves a Christian got raptured. It's probably going to be that the annoying ones (like those who are currently trying to get anti-gay legislation passed in Arizona) will be the ones who get left behind :P

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[–] jsmith98-1 10 years ago

Actually, the snotty obnoxious Christians would still be here unfortunately , as most of them are the biggest sinners ever to be place on this planet. Not to sound racist by any means, but I think it would be cool if the Chinese were right and Buddha turned out to be God.

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[–] archer1812 10 years ago

I think it would be cool if the Chinese were right and Buddha turned out to be God.

That wouldn't happen, neither branch of Buddhism nor any Buddhist tradition claim the Buddha is God. In fact, Buddhism doesn't claim any god, it's a non-theistic religion.

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[–] bcampfield 10 years ago

Surely after the rapture occurs there will be explanations to explain it a non-religous way. mass suicides, aliens ... etc.
The general public will probably believe what the media will tell them.

In the Christ Clone books the Antichrist even admits that he is the Beast of Revelation but the person who wrote Revelation was trying to portray him in a bad light by calling him the Beast. He was really trying to take humanity into a New Age and convinced everyone that God was a tyrant who wanted to keep humanity enslaved and scared. Everybody believe him and happily received his 666 Mark.

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[–] julielb67 10 years ago

In the Christ Clone books the Antichrist even admits that he is the Beast of Revelation but the person who wrote Revelation was trying to portray him in a bad light by calling him the Beast. He was really trying to take humanity into a New Age and convinced everyone that God was a tyrant who wanted to keep humanity enslaved and scared. Everybody believe him and happily received his 666 Mark.

Satan/Antichrist is a lot more intelligent than people give him credit. And I wish people would actually get into the bible to see that the rapture theory plays into how he "will" be able to fool the entire world. It's because he comes in playing Christ, playing the messiah. Which is what antichrist means in the greek - "instead of" he comes instead of Christ. That's how he deceives everyone. It even describes the beast as looking like the lamb and speaking like a dragon. People will think he's Christ. And in reality he would not fool anyone if the rapture were really true. And yet people don't even realize it. And rapture believing Christians will line up as well. That's where the great falling away (apostasy) comes in. And if people are this deceived already believing in a possible rapture, how much easier it will be for antichrist. The true Christ comes at the the 7th trump, the fake one comes at the 6th.

Sorry to jump into this thread but I've seen plenty of Atheists jump into others as well.

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[–] teaguetod 10 years ago

julielb67:

No problem.

So, you are a non-rapture-believing Christian who sees the idea of the Rapture itself as somehow being used to trick everyone into accepting the Antichrist? Super-double whammy, nice one! I hadn't thought of that before. Kind of like Satan and his main bud Antichrist are the ultimate con men, pulling the ultimate fake-out on everybody!

Really, that still doesn't change the fact that -- after everyone having been given a colossal heads-up in the last book of the Bible -- anybody who is a serious, critical thinker would be watching out for a beneficent world leader who comes in the name of peace, and a one-world government of some kind. And (possibly) a literal mark... barcode... computer chip... whatever.

Rapture or no Rapture, Christian or unbeliever, I don't see how we are expected to fall for this nonsense when we've already been warned. Over and over again.

It's silly. The original prophecies in Revelation are silly, the people who try to twist those old prophecies into meaning something today are silly -- and always 100% wrong (William Miller, Hal Lindsey, Jack Van Impe, Edgar Whisenant, Harold Camping, etc.), and the books and movies based on these half-baked ideas are silly. But also a lot of fun. With popcorn.

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[–] julielb67 10 years ago

Really, that still doesn't change the fact that -- after everyone having been given a colossal heads-up in the last book of the Bible -- anybody who is a serious, critical thinker would be watching out for a beneficent world leader who comes in the name of peace, and a one-world government of some kind. And (possibly) a literal mark... barcode... computer chip... whatever.

Satan "is" antichrist. This is just one of his roles. Just like God with the trinity, Satan is going to play the antichrist, the religious beast. There is only been one entity sentenced to die at this time and that's the son of perdition. Perdition meaning death, destroyer. Ababdon in the Hebrew, Apollyn in the Greek, that old dragon and of course the serpent. He will sit on the throne showing and proclaiming he's God. This was prophesied way back in Isaiah of Lucifer. Angels are always called men in the Bible and this will be no different. Michael and his angels will boot Satan and his to earth and people will believe he's Christ. Those not having the seal of God (knowledge of the seals, etc) will worship him. They will not have a choice seeing as it's God that sends the delusion (2nd Thes) This silly stuff about movies and bar codes will not even come to effect. As I said, Satan is lot more intelligent than that. He even knows the bible better than most Christians. You'll will believe in your mind that he is the Messiah. That's where your mark comes in. Doesn't matter if you've been warned. Those not having the seal of God will worship him. I know this probably won't be taken seriously but all this is at least biblical, whereas the rapture isn't.

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[–] teaguetod 10 years ago

If I understand correctly, according to you -- from your reading of Paul's words in Second Thessalonians -- God himself will 'send a delusion,' causing me to worship the Antichrist, because I didn't have faith initially and believe in God to begin with. If that's the case, then there's really nothing I can do about that.

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[–] julielb67 10 years ago

It's not according to me. It's according to the bible.

In the beginning of 2nd Thessalonian, Paul has come back to clear up the confusion that his first letter caused about the timing of Christ's return. Every rapture believer pins their hopes on 1st Thessalonians 4:17.

In this second letter he says in second chapter, "Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering back to him. That ye be not shaken in mind, or troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand" So he's there to discuss the the return of Jesus and tells them not to be confused or shaken, even by their letter (1st Thessalonians)

He continues with the same warning that Jesus gives the disciples in Matthew 24 in verse 3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not happen except there come a falling away first (this is apostasy in the greek) and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God shewing himself that he is God."

So you see, no secret rapture, quite the opposite. But most Christians don't read past 4:17. They don't even read into chapter 5 when Paul calls this the day of the Lord. Or further into 2nd Thessalonians when Paul is correcting. Because they though Christ could return at any time. And we see this is not the case as Paul just taught.

We also know the son of perdition is supernatural and the only individual at this point that's been sentenced to perish is Satan, whose name in the Hebrew is Adbadon and in the Greek Appolyn. This is none other than Satan himself playing the role of antichrist and our second witness to this in the bible actually came first in Isaiah 14

Verse 13 God is talking to Lucifer and God says "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of GOD: I will "also" sit upon the mount of congregation in the sides of the north." This is the throne in Jerusalem on Mount Zion. Paul's teaching is the second witness and identifies who the antichrist is. Antichrist in the Greek means "instead of Christ"

So this also tells us without a doubt that Christ will not gather back to the people until this happens. And all those Christians waiting on a rapture will likely fall away with the rest of the world to worship the antichrist. It's always been about God vs Satan and this is how it will go down. We also see that angels are always called men in the Bible and this is no different.

Back to 2nd Thessalonians -In chapter 3 verse 10, Paul says" And with all the deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received no the love of the truth (the truth is God's word and many Christians themselves don't know it completely) that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe the lie."

It's so simple to see and understand and I don't think it needs any interpretation. If someone wants to see this any different than how it's laid out in the Bible be my guest. But God is saying, if anyone chooses not to read the letter I sent them and not receive the love of the truth to be saved, I will send them a strong delusion. And we see that in Revelations the whole world wonders after him. He proclaims to be God, and even looks like the lamb. This is also in Revelation.

Sorry this is so long, but I wanted to say, it's not according to me. I'm just going by what the Bible has written on the subject. Many other Christians and other religions don't believe in a rapture The rapture theory itself has only been around since the 1800's. But how fitting that we now have this remake coming out as well as other biblical movies. And now with Russia coming back into play just as predicted in the end times, I feel it's sooner than we think.

I'm sorry you don't have faith, but after I read the bible from beginning to end about 14 years ago, it only strengthened mine. I saw that many traditions being taught weren't true.
Earth being only 6 or 7 thousand years old -false
Adam and Eve were the first people on earth -false
Eternal hell -false
rapture -false

I could go on, but I sat in a church pew for sometime learning nothing about what the Bible is really teaching. And as a witness that so called pastors themselves are very lacking -Jim Bakker who I've never been a fan (nor most tv evangalists for that matter) sat in prison and read the bible for the first time and saw that the rapture wasn't true. And this is someone that went to bible college. So to me, it's so much about money and handing out traditions, not the actual word of God.

Take care.

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[–] life4all 10 years ago

The problem with a biblical rapture is largely one of interpretation. The early Christians had no such hope and the idea itself is only a few hundred years old. This is one of many ideas that are overzealous misinterpretations of the texts themselves. Many biblical writings are written in a metaphorical style that sometimes causes the reader to go off on tangents and misinterpret the message. For example, seeing a man’s nakedness means to have sex with his wife. That is the reason Noah curses his grandson (Canaan: the biological offspring of that sexual union between mother and son) rather than the son (Ham) who saw his father’s nakedness.

As far as the original prophecies in the book of Revelations or the bible being silly goes, well I’m not so sure. If there were not over 15,000 nuclear weapons in the world today, it would be much harder to believe them. The bible itself predicts the invention of nuclear weapons as far back as the book of Joel (over 3,000 years ago). These are somewhat obscure texts that largely go unnoticed which might serve to alert mankind to the horrors in store for us from the “brave new world” we have been living in for the last 100 years. Revelations also seems to suggest that mankind would someday harness technologies that would poison the earth itself. The post-industrial revolution has given us much to ponder about how we grow crops, raise livestock, manage our land, manage our forests, produce energy and even fish the oceans. We now routinely dump toxins where no toxins ever existed before. The expanded use of burning fossil fuels over the last 100 years may be forcing changes in the weather and even contributing to the formation of diseases (many new cancers, etc.) that our ancestors never faced.

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[–] life4all 10 years ago

It is also important to point out that many of the prophecies in the book of Revelations tie back to those written in the book of Daniel. When the book of Daniel speaks of beasts, it always refers to them as earthly kingdoms (empires) that for a time came into prominence (Persia, Egypt, Greece, Rome, etc.). I believe it is the same with the book of Revelations. Some say that the book of Daniel prophetically covers a period well over 2,500 years. In regard to that here is a strange prophecy that seems to exactly indemnify an important event that took place in the 20th century:

Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honor of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

That is exactly how Adolph Hitler came to power in 1933. Even many Jews at the time described him as an intoxicating, charismatic speaker (before the full scope of his agenda was known). It concerns me how easily the world forgets that this man was the cause of almost 60 million deaths. As I study history further I see few events that fit the prophecy so concisely. It always bothered me that Nostradamus goes well out of his way to warn the world of Hitler where the bible did not. I see now that it did not overlook the greatest antichrist (Paul said there would be many) the world has ever seen. History is replete with human attempts at global domination and I see that as a species we have not yet outgrown that objective at a time when our civilization faces overwhelming problems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock

There are other equally strange writings in the bible. Some even speak of a god the people come to worship that looks exactly like an IBCM (Intercontinental Ballistic Missile). It has ring of truth to it when you consider that the word worship is actually a cognate of two words: worth + ship. In that context worship takes on a whole new meaning. In conclusion I am just not convinced that the bible has no relevance in our modern world.

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[–] teaguetod 10 years ago

I know: the word 'silly' is offensive. I shouldn't talk that way about people's revered beliefs. Let me change the subject slightly to make my point.

What if I told you that the place where Jesus will return to earth at the End of Days is in Syria, in the city of Damascus?

According to the Hadiths of Islam, before the Day of Judgment, the Prophet Isa (Jesus) will descend from heaven to confront the Dajjal, or Antichrist. Jesus will reach earth via a minaret of the Umayyad Mosque in Damascus. He will break the Christian cross, and fight for the true religion of Islam (see http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/bukhari/bh4/bh4_660.htm, among others).

Would you say that's silly? Or should this belief be taken seriously and revered as holy? Most Christians have never heard of this prophecy about the End of Days, yet this is common knowledge among over one and a half billion Muslims, and is taken very seriously (even more so now, due to the civil war in Syria: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GorhP9qLJ7M).

The minaret in question has actually been destroyed several times over the centuries, but has always been rebuilt, so it will be there at the time when the prophecy will be fulfilled.

Of course, the problem -- and the danger -- is always that a prophecy becomes self-fulfilling. So now Muslim fighters are flocking to Syria from around the world to wage jihad against the Assad regime, because they believe it's a sign of the coming Judgment Day.

In the same way, some Christian eschatologists, motivated by their beliefs about the coming end of the world, may actually be helping to make it happen -- for example, by encouraging a confrontation between Judaism and Islam at the site of The Dome of the Rock / Temple Mount in Jerusalem.

I worry about this sort of thing.

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[–] julielb67 10 years ago

I think the antichrist will play at being everyone's messiah and they will believe.

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[–] SkaterDave 10 years ago

Julie honey, so you know. To an atheist your little tale is as true as the Harry Potter books or the Twilight books. Satan isn't real. He's a fairy tale character just like jesus and god. The bible and isn't even as interesting a read as the harry Potter books. Personally I think they're much more believable.

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[–] chilone (17262) 5 years ago

Your condescension only weakens any hope of an argument you may have.

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[–] SkaterDave 9 years ago

I believe the stories in the bible have as much credibility as the stories in the Harry Potter books.

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[–] teaguetod 10 years ago

Reply to bcampfield:

- "All the children in the world simultaneously committed suicide. No wait, they were all simultaneously abducted by aliens."

- "OK, I believe you."

You're right. It's so easy.

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[–] jlgreenlee 10 years ago

It would be very easy to believe that God is a tyrant, given the source material, and the Left Behind series. There is no swearing or sex to speak of in LB, but the God/Jesus (the book treats them interchangeably) blood lust is unquenchable!

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[–] LetsBeSerious 10 years ago

The Antichrist, mark of the beast, all that stuff was a reference to Emperor Nero using Hebrew gematria to warn other Christians. He's been dead for quite some time now so he's no longer a threat to Christians around the world.

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[–] julielb67 10 years ago

No way Nero was the person. No one has ever sat on the temple mount proclaiming to be God. As well as performing miracles in the sight of men etc

There are are many other things not fulfilled etc

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[–] TalnReich 10 years ago

Well, I'm a Atheist mainly because I refuse to belive, that such a despicable figure (yes, despicable. How else do you call someone who commands genocide?) has such a great deal of power, if there is no proof for that. But if something like the rapture would happen (of course I would be sceptical, and would look for alternative explanations, but the sudden disapperance of millions of people, even with concrete criteria, can't really be explained by anything natural, so supernatural would be the only thing left) I would have proof. Therefore I would then swallow my ethical concerns and join the God-Camp, since, if something as fantastical as the rapture come true, that would mean the rest of the revelation-Text would also come true (aka God is going to win, and everyone from the loser party is going to suffer horrible).

Of course I'm living in the assumption, that this scenario is purely hypothetical. Not more realistic as the Question what I would do if I would have three wishes free from a fairy.

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[–] 10 years ago

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[–] Oblivion14 10 years ago

I'd rather die than lick the boot of a deity that enabled the deaths of millions of innocents and good people just because they happened to believe in something else.

Even if god was real, why would you ever want to serve someone as obviously sadistic, controlling, and petty as he is described?

For all their talk of mercy and kindness, the one mark the Abrahamic religions - from Christianity to Islam and Judaism - has left on this world is millions of dead people. From the conquest of the Jews of Canaan to the Crusades, to 9/11, to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

And this is even reflected in the scriptures. From the proposed rape of Lot's daughters to the admonition to kill every man, woman, and child of neighboring settlements because Jews needed more land.

I've been to "rapture" sermons before. And the kind of rabid twinkling everyone in the pews get when the pastor/priest describes in exquisite detail the punishment waiting for everyone else is frightening. They actually relish the coming pain of others. They relish their own vindication, so they can gloat at how they've been right all along. These people WANT the rapture to come now so they can laugh and point their fingers at everyone else who ever doubted them.

If he is the kind of deity who would willingly let a sentient being be tortured for eternity, then he is NOT merciful, nor kind, nor great. He is a child. An envious child who resents anyone who does not pay attention to him. Who pulls off the wings of a fly because he can.

Goodness is not tied to religion. I can be a good person on my own terms. Without the need to pamper to some higher being's pride.

Millennialism is nothing new either. Even just a few years after Jesus' death, people were claiming that the end times were coming. 2014 years later, we're still apparently waiting. Entire new sects of Christianity sprang up because people once believed a pastor who told them it was going to happen within their lifetimes. And they were wrong. And it wouldn't be long before they get impatient.

If it doesn't come, they will make it come. As has been the case with numerous doomsday cults springing up every few decades who commit mass suicides or killings in the name of ushering in their "golden age". You only have to look at Bin Laden for that. Muslims and Christians worship the same god. The god of Abraham. Islamic jihadists are their version of doomsday cults. People willing to kill thousands of innocent lives in the hopes that it will make the end of days come tomorrow.

It's a shame really. Jesus' message was in itself quite good. And universal. But it has been twisted so much that most of modern Christianity does not resemble his teachings in any way whatsoever, other than in rote and ritual. These people do not follow Jesus, they just want a ticket to heaven. They aren't good because they are good people. They are "good" because they want their reward afterwards.

P.S. If of course he turns out to be real and isn't the complete tyrant that he is described in the bible and as preached by millions of fire and brimstone conservatives, then yes. I think I'd like to know him/her/it. If only to ask some questions.

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[–] TalnReich 10 years ago

Even if god was real, why would you ever want to serve someone as obviously sadistic, controlling, and petty as he is described?

For all their talk of mercy and kindness, the one mark the Abrahamic religions - from Christianity to Islam and Judaism - has left on this world is millions of dead people. From the conquest of the Jews of Canaan to the Crusades, to 9/11, to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

And this is even reflected in the scriptures. From the proposed rape of Lot's daughters to the admonition to kill every man, woman, and child of neighboring settlements because Jews needed more land.

I pretty much agree with that. If there were a Deity with the powers of the Abrahamic God, that cares for humans, there would be violent religous conflicts, since this Deity could (and should) send all involved a vision along the lines "I thought I made myself clear the last Time.It's that and that and That way! No go home, and don't even dare to call what you were about to do a 'Holy War'.". The lack of apperances like this would only leave the possibilities of a God who don't care for human concerns (or is outright malicous) or one who didn't exist. Of this to the last seems prefferable to me.

I'd rather die than lick the boot of a deity that enabled the deaths of millions of innocents and good people just because they happened to believe in something else.

Here I see things a bit differently. If the cristian doctrine about the rapture would be correct, it would be logical to assume, that also their doctrine about the afterlife would be correct - meaning, that, if you die (and fighting against a being with powers like described to the abrahamic God will result just in your death if you are lucky) in Opposition to this "God" he will send you into a place were you would be tortured for ever .

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