Ending- Spoilers!


Okay, I thought the movie was okay when I saw it.
But, you know, I didn't like the sort of Trick ending in this film.
Not Twist; like a plot twist, I mean Trick.
The film tricks you as one of the characters never existed.
I refer to Kristen Stewart's character.
So, basically you are made to feel like a fool.
I imagined-did her character have an accident at the end?
Did she run off because she felt like Juliette's character was in love with her?
Where did she go?
So, no, I was stupid because I thought Valentine was real.
So, I don't like films that slap you in the face.




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I believe she was real. Kristen explained in a recent interview that her character just quits. She interacts with too many other characters for her not to exist.

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Valentine simply left Maria for good. She was very frustrated with Maria's dismissal of her opinions about meanings of many aspects of the play. She told Maria this several times throughout the movie -- Maria could get anyone to rehearse lines, that Maria giving no value to Valentine's take on anything was hurting their relationship. On their final hike just before Valentine split, Maria even stated they were not going to see the snake (the cloud formation), and she challenged Valentine's ability to even know where they were. At that moment Valentine had had enough. Bye bye Maria.

Another take on Valentine's leaving: on the hike they were discussing whether a certain play character (Helena) had simply left at the end, or died. Maria stated the character had died, but Valentine pointed out she simply disappeared, possibly reinventing herself somewhere else. Maria dismissed Valentine's take (once again), so Valentine disappeared herself to drive home her point, and to end her frustrations with Maria.

Rest in peace, Roger Ebert. You were the best.

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on the hike they were discussing whether a certain play character (Helena) had simply left at the end, or died. Maria stated the character had died, but Valentine pointed out she simply disappeared, possibly reinventing herself somewhere else


To me, only part of Maria's fixation on her own interpretation is personal. Another part is that Maria knows that Wilhelm didn't simply have a heart attack while out walking, but rather purposely went to that spot and took his own life. While almost everyone else has a different interpretation, Maria "knows" what really happened. Her certainty in that particular case makes it difficult for her to adopt a different interpretation about the similar event in the play.

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Valentine left just like the older character in the play. They discussed this in the movie.

Valentine opens our eyes to this possibility when she tells Maria that she didn’t read in the script that Helena commits suicide, she says that the script is ambiguous on this point and that she just goes into the mountains and disappears.
This mirrors Valentine heading off into the mountains and she disappears for good.

Val represents the older character in the play.


I can't hear you over the volume of my hair.

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The inverse parallels they went through with the characters in the play added nice depth, and allowed for a subtle but thought provoking examination of extracting meaning and value against the variables of time and perspective.

*all this I dreamt, and more.

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The film tricks you as one of the characters never existed.
I refer to Kristen Stewart's character.


With due respect, what is it with imdb boards that fuels all of these posts about characters who really were DEAD all along, or, in this case, NEVER EXISTED?

There are very very very few movies that use this device. But, on imdb every movie more sophisticated than TRANSFORMERS PART 9 seems to have at least one thread which states that the movie is really about dead and imaginary figures.


On second thought, in TRANSFORMERS PART 8 I started to believe that Optimus Prime might not really have existed............

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I agree. The problem is that you can take almost any character in any film and make the argument that the character is imaginary. When someone challenges this interpretation, the response is always, "Well, prove that the character is not imaginary." Any attempted proof is explained away as part of the imaginary realm. But why people want to interpret films in this way--I don't know.

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This "Valentine is imaginary" argument is nonsense.

It's true, that Karl, the director once says that in the theatre play the women
were the same character, but that's it....
There is absolutely nothing else in the movie that suggests Valentine/Maria
are one person.
Nothing.

I think Assayas wanted to keep Valentine's fate ambigious,
but for me she was either dead or simply left.

Maybe a reference to Antonioni's "L'aventura"?

But in that film the vanishing had dramatic weight, while here Valentine is just gone.

I found this film disappointing.
The last act doesn't work.

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I found this film disappointing.
The last act doesn't work.


I was really into the film until Val disappears. I agree that the last act felt like it belonged to a different film. It was an abrupt shift from the earlier scenes.

It's possible it felt strange because the last act focused on the play rather than the characters' 'real' lives. It also seemed a harsh comedown for Maria as Jo-Ann was disrespectful toward Maria's wish to do a scene differently and Maria just bowed down to her wishes. The reality of the play was a far cry from what the director had promised Maria.



And all the pieces matter (The Wire)

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Yeah, I don't buy the "fight club" explanation at all. It doesn't fit with the scenes where Val is doing stuff on her own - including the opening scene.

In particular, the "breakdown" scene on the foggy road would make no sense if in fact Val wasn't real. If it was in fact a fantasy of Marie, she might plausibly imagine Val getting lost, crashing, becoming panic in the fog, but getting out of the car and vomiting. Something completely out of the character's central presence as would be persistent in the mind of a disillusioned person inventing her.

Also you have issues with Val driving the car around in several scenes. If they wanted to leave open the possibility that Val was an illusion, it would have been perfectly non-committal to re-write those scenes with both women being driven in the back of the car.

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Assayas confirmed in one interview that Valentine was real.In my interpretation she have enough from Maria's arrogance and she simply wanted new job. She wanted be respected.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mavwtyFsZe1regarwo1_500.gif

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Val was real. This was not a film like "The Sixth Sense" or the American TV series "Mr. Robot".

Val simply had enough of Maria and moved on. She quit. The fact that we never hear about what happened to her in the epilogue substantiates this (at least to me). In my opinion, if Val had really just disappeared, it would have been devastating to Maria and she likely would not have been able to do the play. The fact that she is still doing the play just a few weeks after Val leaves is evidence that Val simply took off to find a new life (remember she says that about Helena right before she leaves). To me it's just so obvious that Val just left for a new life.

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And Val changed her name to Maureen(or this was her real name) and work as personal shopper in Paris and search contact with her dead brother because she can see ghost and this is the reason why she know so much about the play, because she was in contact with Wilhelm's ghost (i'm joking).

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mavwtyFsZe1regarwo1_500.gif

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To me it's just so obvious that Val just left for a new life.

Totally agree.

Rest in peace, Roger Ebert. You were the best.

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To me its Obvious Val loves Maria and that she died - she fell in the cliffs. Maria wants to hang on to Val in the epilogue - she isnt disappointed when J is rude to her - she thinks "what would Val have seen - raw honesty.. - Val liked the young perspective so I will except it" - Also explaining why she takes on a si fi type of film at the end and has the similar sort of conversation she would have with Val were she still alive. Vals frustrations towards Maria were tensions because she was in love with her - Maria was in denial about her feelings towards Val - which is why she was overly critical - to distance herself - "I couldnt possibly love a brat like that - or she and old women like this" - this is what frustrates Val. Two scenes - Val goes to bed drunk early after touching Marias hand and face before things go any further - Maria - the feet creeping scene, looks at Val in bed in the G string...

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I don't think there should be any doubt that Valentine was a real character. If she was not real, then almost all the scenes could not have been real either, and the entire film then had to be just some kind of hallucination or imagination on Maria's part. So the real question was why the script made Valentine disappear in such a manner, and I personally think that scene was a mistake. As had been pointed out, the scene might have meant that Valentine (just like what she believed of the fictional Helena) just disappeared to reinvent herself somewhere else. That, however, meant placing more importance on symbolism than the basic credibility of the scene. That Valentine vanished totally in less than ten seconds was not only physically impossible, but also totally out of her character to leave Maria in such a sudden manner.

Of all the women in the film, Valentine was actually the one with the most balanced psyche. She performed her duties ably and responsibly, and she and Maria undoubtedly had a liking for each other. But she wanted her views - for example on the interpretation of the play - to be taken seriously and she was not intimidated by her boss' fame and position. She was more than twenty years younger than Maria but was actually the more mature and level-headed of the two. Maria looked upon Henrik as just a douchebag, but Valentine was able to recognize that as an actor he was good. Maria thought Jo-Ann to be the typical modern actress, with little acting talent and prone to scandals, but Valentine said she was cool and that she admired her for her boldness and intensity. Maria dismissed modern movies based on science fiction and heroes with superpowers as mindless, but to Valentine they might just be expressing old values and messages in a new form. Most importantly, in regard to the play, Maria (and also Jo-Ann) thought Helena to be washed-up and pathetic - and in addition playing Helena forced Maria to recognize and cope with middle-age and the changes (in the film industry and in her personal relations) with the passage of time. Valentine, though much younger, was the one who was able to see value and dignity in Helena's character.

Thus in a way, Valentine represented the words of wisdom and might even have been regarded as the moral center of the film. She simply would not have left Maria in such an abrupt manner. It was doubly disappointing that - whatever the symbolic significance of "The Snake" was - Valentine was the one who missed the scene of its coming.

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Maria thought Jo-Ann to be the typical modern actress, with little acting talent and prone to scandals, but Valentine said she was cool and that she admired her for her boldness and intensity. Maria dismissed modern movies based on science fiction and heroes wdith superpowers as mindless, but to Valentine they might just be expressing old values and messages in a new form.

But I felt Val's admiration for Jo-Ann's acting ability, based on the clip of Jo-Ann's movie, was unjustified. That was Jo-Ann's only significant movie, and she's Val's favorite actress? Really? Or did Val love Jo-Ann because she was a badass Sigrid type in real life (battling the paparazzi, shooting up her boyfriend's house)?

And I totally agreed with Maria's evaluation of Jo-Ann's movie being about goofy pop psychology mouthed by bimbos in astronaut suits. If Assayas wanted us to think Val had a valid point of view about Jo-Ann's acting, then he should have showed us something besides the dumb "I love Sargon" clip.

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First, I think the main issue was not whether that particular science fiction film was good or silly - and I don't think the excerpt shown was sufficient to form a judgment, Maria's main problem was that she let her own personal issues cloud her and never even acknowledged the possibility that there might be some merit in Jo-Ann's acting or in science fiction films. When Valentine talked about heroines (some of them mutants) with "superpowers" but emotionally vulnerable like humans - which, by the way applied to almost all the female characters in The Avengers - Maria laughed uncontrollably, as if all the films of that genre had to be silly by definition. I don't think Valentine admired Jo-Ann for her scandalous behaviors and lifestyle, but she was (while Maria wasn't) able to separate those from Jo-Ann's acting ability. Perhaps, it might even be possible that those same characteristics enabled Jo-Ann to identify emotionally with the types of characters she played? Second, it was also possible that Valentine did not really believe 100 percent in what she said, but was exasperated by Maria's narrow-mindedness and as some counterbalance expressed the opposite view more vehemently than she actually felt. For example, after defending Jo-Ann's science fiction film and the characters, Maria asked her what she thought about Sargon, and Valentine finally said "Sargon sucks" and they both laughed.

As I said, Valentine, though much younger than Maria was actually the more mature and level-headed of the two. She appeared to have greater insight into Maria's character - as well as the characters in the play - than Maria herself. In that respect, I sometimes do not find Valentine too believable as a character. Very often, her lines showed far, far greater sophistication, depth and insight than what one would have expected from an assistant. She spoke more like a philosopher - or perhaps the director/scriptwriter - and might be treated as the voice of reason for the film. Yet her character was given scant development and we know nothing of her background and past history - and that made her disappearance from the ending all the more dissatisfying.

Valentine's absence in the ending also left many questions regarding her relationship with Maria unanswered. The two women were undoubtedly very close. Did Valentine leave just because she felt her opinions on the play were not valued by Maria and so moved on to a new job where her talents would be given more recognition, or was there something else? More specifically, were there ever sexual feelings between the two women like what Helena had for Sigrid? The film did not have much to suggest that Maria was ever sexually attracted to Valentine - save that scene in which she looked at her sleeping in her underwear, and the one where she hugged her and begged her to stay. Yet when Maria and Valentine rehearsed the play after the latter had declared her intention to leave, their lines became increasingly uncanny and we sometimes have difficulty in knowing whether they were from the play or whether that was their actual conversation, and finally Maria was close to breaking down. Was the film trying to suggest something? Was Maria in love with Valentine, and the latter noticed that and wanted to end their relationship? Or was it even possible that Valentine herself discovered that she was in love with Maria? I personally think it was a bad idea for Valentine simply to disappear without explanation, and would have preferred a more satisfactory closure.

Overall, I actually find Maria's story rather straightforward: she was just a famous actresses now having to cope with time and middle-age. Valentine is a far more complex and interesting character and I would like a film about her instead.

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Whew! A lot in your post to digest...
Here are a few of my thoughts:

I don't think Val is that mature. Her relationship with Maria is oppositional: She spouts things even she doesn't understand. (We don't either). If Val is so mature, why does she suddenly disappear? To let someone you work for think you may have died by falling down the mountainside? To leave your friend/boss high and dry like that just because Maria rejects her interpretation of the play and the role of Helena? This is a role that Maria has to find her own way to in order to bring her to life credibly, and as a viewer I trust Maria's process because she is an internationally renowned actress with a 20 year career. If anything, I think Maria's major character flaw is in taking Val's baiting seriously. She is jealous of Val's admiration for Jo-Ann. But as a viewer, all we have to judge Jo-Ann's acting on is her "Bimbo in Astronaut Suit" clip. And at the end of the film Maria is considering taking a role where she plays a "hybrid" with a young, first-time director. Unless he's a genius like Kubrick, Maria's career could be in for a dive. (and she can thank the influence of Val for that.)

BTW, I don't think Maria has played it safe with her career. She played a character called Nemesis and acted hanging from wires against a green screen (an action movie?). When she negatively characterizes Jo-Ann's film role as mouthing pop psychology, she says, "Been there, done that." Because Maria has a negative view of Jo-Ann's movie, (based on the clip, I share her view) does that mean she automatically rejects Sci-Fi as a genre? I suspect Maria would have had an appreciation for the movie 2001.

TBC

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If you have read some of my other posts, I have always thought it was a shortcoming of the script that Valentine disappeared without reason. It was very likely meant to be symbolic, but certainly it was totally not her character to walk off abruptly just like that.

Valentine was not blindly siding with Jo-Ann: she acknowledged her talent but there was no suggestion that she liked her behaviors or lifestyle. She was able to identify with the older character in the play too. She was sympathetic towards her and recognized her value and dignity. Valentine did appear very mature for her age, as shown in her conversations with Maria and in her interpretations of the play. All you need to do is to read some of her lines in the "Memorable Quotes" section of IMDb for this film. She certainly spoke more like a psychologist or philosopher than an actor's assistant - who in most cases would be just some kind of attendant or tagalong.

I think that Maria agreed to do a mutant film with the young director showed that she finally was able to see some merit in Valentine's opposing viewpoints. Interestingly, the young director - in contrast to what Maria thought of science fiction films - believed her to be the right actress and not someone of the "bimbo in space suit" type that she despised.

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Valentine was not blindly siding with Jo-Ann: she acknowledged her talent but there was no suggestion that she liked her behaviors or lifestyle.

When Maria and Val first discuss Jo-Ann, Val says, "I love her. She's not completely antiseptic like the rest of Hollywood. She's brave enough to be herself. At her age I think that's pretty f'ing cool." She's not referencing her acting, but her lifestyle antics... as captured on the Internet and celebrity gossip.

Chloë Grace Moretz may have been miscast as Jo-Ann. Jo-Ann is described as being "classically trained" yet she says "Di-nint" instead of "Didn't."

She must have learned that from the Euripides play she was in. 



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Maybe Val is overstating Jo-Ann's classical training. I think taking a few acting classes and doing some stage productions qualify young American actors doing big budget films as "classically-trained" these days since standards are so low.

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Well said, everyone. I love this movie because it creates discussions. That's what I once loved about films, those after-the-show talks over dinner with bright friends who loved movies. Doesn't take much time to talk one's way through these "boy movies," based on comic books, does it? Eating cotton candy does not satisfy like a gourmet meal with good wine.

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