MovieChat Forums > Mankind: The Story of All of Us (2012) Discussion > Why they didn't show the real History?

Why they didn't show the real History?


I was really happy that finally the History channel did a "show" that is about History...
But I was already mad once about the Jesus part (there is a post about it already), But they totally passed by about the Muslim History... They showed it as it was so peaceful and it spread so fast into the world like magic... If they showed how bad the crusades were, they need to show how bad the Muslim's "crusades" were too... This is totally false information...

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"false information"... that's all the channel knows these days...

"I don't argue with idiots, they bring me down to their level and beat me with experience"

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This is the real history, the Muslims were the most tolerant people and they are showed exactly what they were as like as the Christians which took Crusades war to kill, masacrate and genocide millions of innocent people... Overall this serial is good. Grade 10

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Um, yeah, that is 100% factually incorrect.

Muslim incursions into Europe in the 8th Century prompted the Church to respond.

And "millions" were not killed, either.

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You mean the Crusade where Saladin conquered Jerusalem and let the occupants live, as compared to the Christians who massacred everyone? They were wars it's pretty understandable that they were violent, no need to go into detail. Also, this series, just like the one they did about America a couple years ago, is really more of a summary of events. Since human history is so vast, there are many things that they will have to gloss over or skip altogether. The point of shows like this is to get you interested in parts of history that you may not have been interested in, or even knew about, before and to read up on it yourself.

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Those people in Jerusalem where far from peaceful... both sides (Christians and Muslims)
They need to show the true of both sides!
The part of Cordoba was just ridiculous, I felt like I was watching some magical fairy tale, when they said that the Muslims,Christians and Jewish were living in peace I laughed, It's so far from the true, Christian and Jewish lived as second class citizens paying special taxes to live in peace..If they didn't want to deal with it, then just don't show it at all.
And showing like Jesus and Mohamed where somekind of historic people, then why not just start with god creating the earth and Adam and Eve?

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I rolled my eyes when they said they were all living peacefully in the holy land as well. The narrator actually said they were "relatively peaceful" and "for the most part" so I guess it depends on how the history channel defines "relative" and "for the most part"

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Mumu, they presented Christ as someone that Christians believe in, and Mohammed as a genuine prophet who ascended to heaven. Obviously when they were so biased in favor of Islam, they weren't going to show any of the bad things the Muslims have done.

http://thinkingoutloud-descartes.blogspot.com/

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[deleted]

I see it as a marketing decision, there will be far more Christians watching the series then Muslims.

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[deleted]

Well then there you go, just considering how much time they spent on eastern island, I don't think they spent too much time with Christianity.

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[deleted]

OK you have stated your opinion many times, we get it. Besides that you appear to be wrong.

'Although scholars differ on the reconstruction of the specific episodes of the life of Jesus, the two events whose historicity is subject to "almost universal assent" are that he was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[20][21][22][23]'

Now you can take your argument to wikipedia.

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[deleted]

Care to post any "accurate source" to refute "...the existence of Jesus and whether or not he was crucified."? At least netsez00 tried to support his position with something other than an opinion, you haven't.


Do you realize that people who contribute to wiki articles frequently give references to the sources they use? netsez00 should have posted a link to the article so you could take issue with the referenced books.




"The more I know about people, the better I like my dog."- Mark Twain

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[deleted]

Thanks for the well thought out reply Brooklyn.

Actually, I remember you from the 'Breaking Amish' board, where that one poster who would post a lot of biased comments about Amish was almost stalking you, but you handled them very well.






"The more I know about people, the better I like my dog."- Mark Twain

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[deleted]

When I said you're repeating yourself I was talking about the position you made that this series spent too much time on Christianity and there was no historical evidence of the crucifixion. You said that several times and in multiple threads

I never said the Americas were historically insignificant, show me where I did .However they do not have the tremendous history of the East Middle East or Europe and I think the Americans were given enough time especially if you look at the last episode

wikipedia is very accurate on most things but I will show you the references that they used to claim the crucifixion happened

20.^ a b c d Jesus Remembered by James D. G. Dunn 2003 ISBN 0-8028-3931-2 page 339 states of baptism and crucifixion that these "two facts in the life of Jesus command almost universal assent".
21.^ a b c d e f g h i Prophet and Teacher: An Introduction to the Historical Jesus by William R. Herzog (Jul 4, 2005) ISBN 0664225284 pages 1-6
22.^ a b c Crossan, John Dominic (1995). Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography. HarperOne. p. 145. ISBN 0-06-061662-8. "That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be, since both Josephus and Tacitus...agree with the Christian accounts on at least that basic fact."
23.^ a b c Eddy & Boyd (2007) The Jesus Legend: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition Baker Academic, ISBN 0-8010-3114-1 page 127 states that it is now "firmly established" that there is non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus


Since most historians do agree that there was a man named Jesus that did exist it is not really a stretch to believe he was crucified. The romans crucified thousands of people. There is nothing special about the crucifixion. I don't know why you keep getting upset that people believe it happened.

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[deleted]

There is as much historical evidence for Jesus' crucifixion as there is for Alexander the Great's existence. Why are people willing to accept Alexander without question and insist there is not enough evidence for the crucifixion?

http://thinkingoutloud-descartes.blogspot.com/

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[deleted]

There is as much historical evidence for Jesus' crucifixion as there is for Alexander the Great's existence.
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That's not true at all.


You may SAY so, but I notice you have not furnished the name of a contemporary of Alexander's. The best account we have of his life is Arrian, who wrote centuries after Alexander's death. So yes, like Jesus, we have no first-hand contemporary accounts of Alexander to prove he existed. And you are saying that Alexander's mark is all over the historical record, but so is Jesus Christ's. People all over the ancient world wrote about Alexander's conquests, and people all over the ancient world wrote about the spread of Christianity, which was started with Jesus. So unless you care to come up with the name of a first-hand historian of Alexander who wrote down eye-witness testimony, you will not be refuting my contention that there is as much evidence for the existence of Alexander as Jesus.

http://thinkingoutloud-descartes.blogspot.com/

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[deleted]

There were many contemporary accounts written of him and those works were used as references in the later accounts of him. The contemporary accounts are now lost, but they were not at the time of Arrian and Plutarch.

And there were many contemporary eyewitness accounts of Jesus that the writers of the Gospels used. As I suspected, you are aware there are no contemporary accounts for either man but you are unwilling to give credence to Jesus and you are perfectly willing to give credence to Alexander. Why can't you just leave Christians alone to believe what we know is true? We're not hurting you. Do you go around trying to debunk Mohammed to Muslims, or is your attitude reserved for Christians?

http://thinkingoutloud-descartes.blogspot.com/

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[deleted]

I have no issue with your beliefs and haven't bashed them. The topic of the historicity of Jesus was brought up and I gave my viewpoint. You kept responding with comments that were incorrect, so I replied.

You have not replied with one single objective logical reason why Jesus should be held, in a historical sense, to a different standard than Alexander.

http://thinkingoutloud-descartes.blogspot.com/

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[deleted]

There were many eyewitness accounts written of Alexander, which are now lost, but were used as references in accounts that were later written and still remain.

There were eyewitness accounts of Jesus that writers used for the Gospels, but you will never accept that the eyewitness accounts that have been lost are just as valid for Jesus as for Alexander. And the Bible still remains-it is only in your mind that it is not historically accurate, despite archeological evidence that backs up many of the events in the Bible.

Let's be clear. I wasn't really expecting you to defend your double standard. Double standards are, by definition, indefensible. All those of us interested in fairness can do is express disapproval of double standards. Sometimes a double standard can be made illegal-for example, when the practice of holding blacks to a different standard than whites to vote was outlawed. But people like you, who hold double standards, always think they are right. They never consider how unjust their position is, or wonder if they should take another look at the facts. I didn't think you would change your perspective and become a fair and reasonable person, but it was worth a shot. Your double standard has been exposed for what it is. Now have the last word-I know how important that is to your sort.

http://thinkingoutloud-descartes.blogspot.com/

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[deleted]

Okay, I'm a trained historian, and there is some documentary corroborating evidence for the existence of Jesus. From the writings of Josephus, born about 4 years after the death of Christ:

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day."

Jewish Antiquities 18.3.3


Josephus also has a reference to Jesus' family:

"But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned."

Jewish Antiquities 20.9.1


Now, regarding the first quote, there is a scholarly debate. Although much of the quote is accepted as legitimate, the manuscript which survived does appear to have been altered by a later copyist - there are sections, such as "he was the Christ," which are clearly part of a later Christian tradition. A probable reconstruction of the original paragraph is:

"At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following among many Jews and among many of Gentile origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians (named after him) had not died out."

Of additional note, the word translated as "startling" or "wonderful" also translates as "controversial." So, what we actually get from Josephus is this: That Jesus Christ did exist, that he was a relatively minor figure in his time who developed a loyal and lasting following (you have to keep in mind that this was written in the 70s AD, which was either right before or around the time that Christianity was rejected as a Jewish sect - it hadn't exploded into what it was going to become yet), that he was crucified at the orders of Pontius Pilate, and that his brother was later stoned to death.

So, what is lacking is corroborating evidence of the resurrection. But, the man himself certainly seemed to have existed - there is a corroborating source outside of the New Testament, although there is some controversy over it.

For more information, see this: http://bede.org.uk/Josephus.htm

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Thanks for the link, Robert!

http://thinkingoutloud-descartes.blogspot.com/

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[deleted]

Actually, as I said in my previous post, I think it's likely it could have happened. I just don't believe there's enough proof for it to be historical fact.

Just so you know, you are going contrary to what most historians believe, and I showed sources. Plus Robert-132 has added quite a bit to the discussion.

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I think what it comes down to is that denying historical proof for Jesus is an emotional response, based on dislike of Christianity. Robert definitely nailed it with showing that historical proof for Jesus meets the standard that other historical figures are held to.

http://thinkingoutloud-descartes.blogspot.com/

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Well, speaking as a non-Christian, I think there is a religious backlash, and it is very easy for somebody who does not know better to extend "there is no historical proof that Jesus was the messiah" to "there is no historical proof that Jesus was real." Personally, it drives me crazy to hear people talk about how religion is the root of all evil, while I still remember growing up during the last years of the Cold War - in which the totalitarian enemy was the Soviet Union, whose official religion was Atheism.

Speaking as a historian, what gets really interesting is when you're trying to deal with ancient battles. The convention of the time was that you did not declare a defeat - so you'll get some battle between Egypt and, say, Assyria or the like in the Levant where the archaeology is present, and both sides declare a great victory. Figuring out what really happened often involves figuring out which side went home first.

History is FUN...(and I'm not saying that sarcastically)

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Speaking as a Christian, I have great respect for your integrity, Robert. Do you have a blog or something where you write about history? I love history-I totally agree with you that it's a lot of fun. I like finding out about real history-not the politically correct popular viewpoint but what really happened. Now THERE'S a challenge. And I have to laugh about both sides declaring a victory, although I don't know if that's a failing limited to the ancients. Do leaders ever tell the truth?

http://thinkingoutloud-descartes.blogspot.com/

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Well, I do have a Livejournal, and I sometimes write about history on it - http://garwulf.livejournal.com

I also own a small publishing company that specializes in history books - http://www.legacybookspress.com

(I just published Kjeld Hald Galster's new book on coalition warfare throughout history.)

And if you want a good book on history, I've been reading "The Crusades: The Authoritative History of the War for the Holy Land," by Thomas Asbridge, and I can heartily recommend it. It very nicely explodes the notion of the brutal barbaric crusaders waging an extended war of aggression against the heart of a unified, peaceful Islam (it wasn't unified, it wasn't peaceful, and it wasn't that interested in fighting Christians at the time - the Muslims caliphates were far more interested in fighting each other), and draws out the sometimes very bizarre politics behind what was going on at the time.

(For example, as far as the Crusaders were concerned, the big division was Franks vs. everybody else - religion had far less to do with anything than where people were born, and whether they sacked a city or not had to do with the old convention of a city that puts up a fight gets sacked, and a city that surrenders before any blood is shed is spared. So King Baldwin I was quite happy to spare Muslim cities as he consolidated the Kingdom of Jerusalem, so long as they surrendered without bloodshed. And then you have Nur al-Din, who spends at least 20 years hailed as a great Jihadist by propagandists while he ignores the Crusader states and concentrates on taking over the Muslim caliphates...and around 1160 starts to realize that maybe he should start waging a Jihad or something.)

Great book...

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Wow, thanks for all the information, Robert! I will definitely check out your journal and your company. Yeah, the Crusades were interesting, all right-the popular notions and the real history are so far apart I doubt they would recognize each other if they met in the street.

http://thinkingoutloud-descartes.blogspot.com/

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[deleted]

That may be true in a strictly dictionary definition sense of the word, but the point still stands. The official belief system of the Soviet Union was Atheism, and all other faiths were banned. The shorthand for this would be "official religion" or "state religion."

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[deleted]

So tell me, do you have anything of actual value or depth to add to this discussion, or are you just planning to continue being pedantic on a definition that nobody else here probably cares about?

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[deleted]