MovieChat Forums > Le passé (2013) Discussion > is 'foreignness' a big theme?

is 'foreignness' a big theme?

posted 10 years ago by chuck-526
14 replies | jump to latest

My impression was the nuances of cross-cultural expectations played a huge role in the film:

- Both failed marriages were half French and half Iranian. Both seemed to have broken down in large part because of mis-communication between the partners.
- Samir complained that Celine didn't even care (and hadn't cared for a really long time), yet we know by the tear at the end she in fact cared a whole lot. Celine apparently found Samir so distant she long ago concluded the only possible reason was he was having an affair (which is probably what drove him to really have an affair).
- Celine automatically assumes that Samir is especially attracted to women from Iran (i.e. Naima), and that having such women around is very dangerous. Yet Samir married a French woman, and seems to employ Naima simply because as an undocumented immigrant she can't cause him much trouble or exact more pay.
- Marie seems to still have an unresolved attachment to Ahmed, and is still very angry at him (and we eventually find out is pretty effective in exacting her revenge). Yet Ahmed seems to be a very low-key, intelligent, supportive person whose main complaint about the marriage was that Marie didn't support him adequately when he was down.

Both Marie and Celine can never escape the suspicion they're in a marriage "of convenience", that their husbands want to legally stay in the country more than they want any particular woman.

There are other places too where we see the pervasive influence of foreignness:

- Samir needs his passport so routinely that he just leaves it clipped to the back of the visor in his car.
- Naima knows she can't call the police on unruly customers, and needs to flee whenever someone else calls the police.
- Ahmed had so much trouble finding a decent job he finally abandoned his marriage.
- Fouad is already at a very young age behaving like a juvenile delinquent.

In fact it doesn't seem too much of a stretch to say that if nobody had been "foreign", none of the sh** would have ever happened. Yet other threads here don't seem to mention "foreignness" as a factor at all. Am I just imagining it was in the film bigtime and intentionally?

[–] nsnces 10 years ago

Were Samir and Naima Iranians or Arabs? I'm not sure that was ever specified. (FWIW, the actors who played them are natives of France of Arabic heritage.) Not that that detail makes much difference for the argument you are making about the role of "foreignness", whether the foreigners in question are Persian or Arabic or Klingon.

[–] chuck-526 10 years ago

The synopsis here on IMDb -as well as every other synopsis I've ever seen- says Iran. The director Asghar Farhadi was born in Iran. His previous film "A Separation" was most definitely set in Iran. And the marketing of this film often refers to it as "an Iranian film". Although I too can't remember whether or not the dialog in the film itself ever explicitly said Iran, that was never a question for me.

Anyway, as you say, it wouldn't really make any difference in responses to my query anyway, as the key part of "foreign" is simply "not from France".

[–] yan-trussart 10 years ago

If Ahmad is in fact Iranian, I'm pretty sure that Samir and Naïma are from north african heritage. I believe that if Samir had been Iranian, it would have impacted on his relation with Ahmad on some level. At least, I think it would've been mentioned in some way or the two men would have spoken persian when they were alone in the car searching for Lucie.
North african immigrants are way more common in France than Iranian, not that it proves anything, but that's my two cents.

[–] chuck-526 10 years ago

Oops, I'd completely failed to consider the possibility that Samir & Naima weren't from the same country as Ahmad.

In any case, my main regret is my confusion about some secondary points has allowed us to stray from the main topic. Any responses to my initial comment/query about "foreignness" (i.e. "not native French")?

[–] yan-trussart 10 years ago

Regarding you main comment/query, I think you're milking your Forreigness theory to the point of ridicule, like when you ask if Samir acting "like a juvenile delinquent" can be explained by the "pervasive influence of foreigness"
First of all, that a little kid placed in his situation may act out is all too normal and comparing his tantrum to juvenile delinqency is absurd.
Furthermore, Samir's mother is probably french and there is a very good chance that he was born in France, so no, I don't think that his "delinquent" behaviour is born out of a sense of alienation...
Same thing when you propose that Celine "automatically assumes" that Samir, being "iranian" will be "especially attracted to women from Iran". In that case why did he choose to marry a blonde french woman in the first place?

Personally, I think the main theme of the movie lies somewhere else, more specifically in how we cope with our past decisions and actions, thus the title of the movie.

[–] zolazona 10 years ago

"Fouad is already at a very young age behaving like a juvenile delinquent."

I thought Faoud was acting out on the confusion set in front of him! He has a mother who struggled with depression within her marriage AND family life, who later attempts suicide. He has been separated from his mother for 8 months and is frightened of this woman he sees in the hospital. He is plopped into another household with another woman who "acts' as his mother (who doesn't seem to hide her unhappiness with this sad and angry little boy when he makes a mistake) and then has to share this space with two new "sisters, one who obviously resents him. To top it off, a new man enters the scene to shake things up.

He needed more attention and it appears that Samir finally figured this out at the train station. I don't see a juvenile delinquent. Lordy, he just reflected the *delinquency* manifested by the adults around him.

[–] chuck-526 10 years ago

You described the situation pretty much as I would have. Poor choice of wording on my part; my unusual/unique use of the term "juvenile delinquent" --rather than clearly getting across my meaning-- obscured what I meant :-( Sorry.

The question I was trying to get at is whether or not the "foreignness" (most especially the resultant hassles) of some of the people around Fouad contributed to his behavior. It now seems fairly clear from these responses that whether or not "foreignness" may have factored into some other problems, it definitely wasn't a factor in Fouad's behavior. (Do I understand correctly?)

[–] zolazona 10 years ago

Yes.

I think each individual was troubled and it was revealed within both of these family constructs, all the way to the choices each of the couples made in coming together in the first place. Modern day blues... Iranian Style, I guess.

[–] daveoafc77 10 years ago

'The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.'- the first line of LP Hartley's book 'The Go-between'.

Foreignness is a big theme here but its part of the bigger picture of the complexities of love and relationships, everyone has got baggage whether that be a wife in a coma, divorcing a man you've still got feelings for or being uncomfortable being away from the country you love and its not easy to negotiate these obstacles in order to make things work.

[–] remembervhs 10 years ago

I don't think foreignness is a big theme at all, at least not in the way you're describing it. It is hinted that Ahmad left France because he couldn't live away from Iran (we see this in the conversation he has with the Iranian restaurant owner--also this idea comes up in A Separation as well. Love for one's homeland seems like a trademark of this director's work). In my opinion, this is the central (and unspoken) cause of the divorce between Marie and Ahmad. He cannot stay in France and she cannot move to Iran.

As far as some of your other points, I don't agree with most of them. Samir is an Arab, not an Iranian. This actually increases tensions between him and Ahmad (in my opinion) because Iranians are often presumed to look down on Arabs.

I also don't think either man (Ahmad or Samir) was relying on marriage to stay in France. This is not delved into, but I assume Samir had citizenship (as a man of Algerian descent who is totally fluent and French and doesn't speak a word of Arabic in the whole movie).

All in all, cultural differences seem to play a minimal role in the troubles between the characters.

[–] bear022013-588-696101 9 years ago

I did not care for all the mixed up,immoral characters..they are not the equal of the animal kingdom.At least animals do not flood France and ruin it!
Illegals and people have not been Caucasian French should ALL be sent away by the French people,the commoners.
This vapid film sickened me because of the aforementioned.France for the French!

[–] 9 years ago

[deleted]

[–] chuck-526 9 years ago

To each his own...

For the record, I do not share your opionion. The World for the World's People!

[–] sammyoz-27878 8 years ago

Well aren't you the racist little d bag. I can imagine the whole film just served as an excuse to infuriate you.

You are a pathetic little spiritual spawn of Donald Trump..