This had probably already been asked for hundreds of times in the boards but I just can't get the relation of Barkeeper/Agent to John/Jane. How he turned into...him.
I don't understand the fight/burning scene either. And finally why the officers created this Bomber 'person' , why they intend to keep this loop on. What's their intention?
Thanks for your ideas in advance. Sorry if I sound too dumb :)
You don't sound dumb. You actually sound smarter than the writers. I figured out the entire twist at the very beginning when Barkeep reacted Jane/John calling him an SOB.
shareAh, the wonderful irony of you calling the writers stupid and then proceeding to misunderstand the plot completely, down to the simplest parts.
shareRemember at the very beginning of the movie after recovering from those severe burns, he was basically given a totally new face. We see him becoming Ethan Hawke.
Question on my mind is - if the loop happens again (think Back to the Future) why don't they continue seeing multiples of themselves? Like when new-John meets young-Jane for the first time, why didn't he see another new-John that looked identical to him (not wearing the same outfit because the other new-John is wearing it). Unless this film is the first loopty-loo. But that still wouldn't explain why there weren't two identical babies dropped at the orphanage.
I thought the "realization" part of the film where everything "starts to make sense" (at the very end) came way too late. I'm sure everyone had it figured out long before then.
Why don't they keep seeing multiples of themselves? Because it is a consistent timeline in one dimension of time. The handsome stranger that Jane bumps into and eventually falls in love with *is* John. John isn't an additional third person.
There aren't two identical babies dropped off at the orphanage because there's just one person. Your phrase "the first loopty-loo" implies the plot is a spiral, but actually it's a circle, coming back exactly to itself.
If something like that ever becomes possible, that would be truly hell. Though, the people experiencing it would never know what is really going on because it just keeps repeating itself.
shareThough, the people experiencing it would never know what is really going on because it just keeps repeating itself.
ALSO, why do we have to see the scars on Ethan's body at the end when we already know who he is? But more than that, how could the government technology make post-burn (Ethan's) John's appearance end up looking so natural and flawless, but they couldn't fix those scars?
shareYes it is ridiculous that their plastic surgery technology was so out of this world that it could fix the monstrous damage done to his head and make him look like Ethan Hawke yet they couldn't fix up those mastectomy and cesarean scars.
shareYour first two questions answer each other. John became an agent? One of the assignments he does is to prevent one of the Fizzle Bomber's bombs going off. John manages, but gets his face burned off. He manages to get his time machine and return to the Agency. The agency give him reconstructive surgery and skin grafts, even iris grafts, plus time to heal. At this point he's Barkeeper/Agent.
Once John realised that he was Jane's future, Barkeep says to John "now you can realise who I am," revealing that Barkeep is to John what John is to Jane.
"why the officers created this Bomber 'person'" - I don't understand the question. The Bomber isn't created by any officers. The Bomber is what the protagonist becomes after mental degeneration induced by the time travel.
Damn you, Spoiler McSpoilerton! It's a good thing that I've watched this movie! :P
Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. -Isaac Asimov
Jane/John becomes Ethan Hawke's charachter after he was burnt. You can see that in the beginning, as he says while looking into the mirror "I've changed so much" and also the doctor says "your vocal chord damage is reduced but will not regrow as it used to be" which means his voice change is permanent too.
The barkeeper drags John/Jane in the first place to become an agent. Just before the Movie title appears Ethan takes up a mission go back into the past, which is the present of the Jane/John(in the bar). From there Jane's story is revealed and Ethan asks Jane/John to come with him and takes into her own past where you can see lady Jane and how they fall in love with each other(or you can call love myself). Then John/Jane tells Ethan that he can't leave lady Jane but Ethan convinces John that its inevitable. During this time Robertson tells Ethan that he made an illegal jump(I didn't understand that nor it was explained why it's illegal and in what way). He goes back t 1945 to keep the kid at the door step of that orphanage.
So, after coming back to the future Ethan introduces John/Jane to bureau and thus he becomes an agent, and John listens to the tape that was already made by Ethan. In the tape he says "our first mission is as important as our last" during when Ethan was on his way to his last mission.
So, basically its a loop where you kind of go back and take your younger version into the past. Like Ethan->Barkeeper(where he meets his own younger version)->John->Jane->Kidnapping the baby and placing on the doorstep. His own character sinks deeper into the past with every incident until the baby version of it.
And finally for your question, why the loop? I think as Ethan's character says he gets disoriented and the affects of time traveling maybe one explanation.
why Fight scene? That's where all the three versions of the characters meet Bomber,John,Ethan and remember this is where John changes into Ethan coz of burning.
Why the bomber? Robertson answers that question, saying "he made a better agent of you. He's made us better at our jobs". Bureau's point of view is that he's an internal Agent who's making the agency better by his wrong doings. For a greater good I guess LOL.
That's my take on it bud.
I drew the same conclusion. However, there is the question whether Robertson actually intends and know about the spiral, as Ethan retires and then becomes the bomber. This could simply be due to the paranoia, and the creators of the "time-police" agency doesn't know that they've created a paradox. That is, John is forever sentenced to relive the paradox.
Robertson suggests the idea of an outside agent inside Johns mind, which could be intended, or John due to paranoia and psychosis, understands this as a sign that he has to become the bomber. Of course, that would mean that there are two things that doesn't make sense, why the case isn't decomissioned and also, where does John get the news clippings from.
Because of course, if the reason for the bomber simply is to make John a better agent, well; then Robertson creates the bomber for John to find, and there isn't any purpose whatsoever. Unless he made other contributions, but who knows really. Maybe the writers didn't overthink it.
Sorry if I sound like a conspiracy theorist, but there's an element of 9/11 in this film.
Let me explain, the story starts with an agent sent to stop a terrorist from killing people.
The fact that the agent is going to become the terrorist at the end is the last twist.
But what else do we know about this world? We know that in March 1975, 11,000 killed.
They were killed in... New York City, the same city on a day 3000 were killed.
Both events were believed to be caused by terrorists.
The events of 3000 being killed in reality, is what begins the "War on Terror".
It is this event that leads later to an Iraq invasion, but also the US Patriot Act.
The US Patriot Act is believed by some conspiracy theorists as a war on freedoms.
That is civil freedoms, the rights to privacy, the rights of stronger security.
This is what conspiracy theorists believe will make the US a Police State.
Some conspiracy theorists believe that the US Government allowed 9/11 to take place.
As was mentioned by Michael Moore, the US Government was aware of Al-Qaeda's plans.
Ok, Moore is left-wing and biased in his films, even considered a conspriacy theorist.
What's interesting is that Al-Qaedia was under control of one Osama Bin Laden.
Osama Bin Laden and Al-Qaedia were believed to have been created by the CIA.
The Al-Qaedia were previously the mujahadeen, afghan warlords fighting the Soviets.
This all happened during the Cold War, when Soviet Union/Russia was fighting the US.
Afghanistan was targeted probably due to it being an OPEC country and thus a resource.
The CIA trained the mujahadeen and provided them weapons due to one Charles Wilson.
If you don't believe me, look for Charlie Wilson's War film starring Tom Hanks.
The CIA provided tactical training to Al-Qaedia which they used against the Soviets.
After the fall of Soviets and the end of the Cold War, Afghanis turned on the US.
The World Trade Center was a symbol of capitalism, globalization and secularism.
All these were considered threats to Islamic extremists, thus leading to the attacks.
This was why the World Trade Center and the Pentagon were chosen as targets on 9/11.
The idea is the US government knew of the attacks and allowed them to take place.
Not to kill people, but to wage a war that to conspiracy theorists was about control.
Control not only of terrorist activities but of civilian activities as well.
The Edward Snowden case of data-collection and metadata was considered a result.
That and the War on Terror that has continued despite Osama Bin Laden's death.
What this basically boils down to is a US Government allowing terrorist attacks.
Killing 3000 people, according to some people, led to War on Terror and Patriot Act.
Now imagine what 11,000 people being killed in March 1975 could have ended with.
What we know from the film is that time travel is supposedly invented in 1981.
What I believe is the connection is that time travel was invented due to March 1975.
It leads to a reason for the Temporal Bureau to exist and get US Government funding.
The Fizzle Bomber's attacks are used as reasons for the Temporal Bureau to exist.
This leads to a new level of social control, through the manipulation of time.
This probably leads to new technological developments such as Space Corp.
Space Corp in the 60s is used as a front for the Temporal Agency to find agents.
The paradox is that if the March 1975 attacks didn't happen time travel wouldn't exist.
The other paradox is that the Fizzle Bomber can only exist due to time travel.
All the Fizzle Bomber's life, from conception to death was caused by time travel.
True, the Fizzle Bomber, later to be seen as Jane, caused these events as an agent.
Thus all the events in Fizzle Bomber's life had to take place to create time travel.
This is basically an allegory of the US allowing a terrorist attack to take place.
The people who caused the terrorist attack were also trained by the US government.
The terrorist group Al-Qaeda was formed according to some, by the US Government.
Without the training or formation, the War on Terror may not even have occurred.
Simply substitute Al-Qaeda with The Fizzle Bomber and you'll see the allegory.
What this film is about is an allegory of Al-Qaeda, 9/11 and the War on Terror.
Some people could think of how these events could have been predestined to happen.
Hence why the film may have been chosen to be called predestination.
The original short story the film is based on was called all you zombies.
This could also be a reference in the story to us being in a trance or zombie-like.
This could have been a metaphor for how America might have been in the 1950s.
The fear of Soviet Union invading American Society has been a fear for a long time.
Some conspiracy theorists even believed that the attack on Pearl Harbour was allowed.
Conspiracy theorists believe that the US provoked Japan into causing the attack.
This would have been a reason to possibly begin work on the Manhattan Project.
A weapon which they thought could lead to a complete new way of running the world.
This creation of atomic bombs was believed to have been provocative to the Soviets.
Hence why after 1945, some conspiracy theorists believe the Cold War began.
A Cold War which led to the invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 by the Soviet Union.
Which led to Al-Qaeda, which led to 9/11, which led to today's War on Terror.
At least that's what some conspiracy theorists believe. ;)
Sorry again for the long post, but I hope this has helped, just my two cents worth.
Wow, you should really seek help. Ignored
share... where does John get the news clippings from.
Robertson said it: it made the bureau better. Gave the bureau some needed information/insight on the time paradox/loop.
And yes, i think Robertson knew everything. Btw, i don't remember seeing Robertson at different ages ...
Wow. Thanks for that "explanation". Saved me 90 minutes of torture.