MovieChat Forums > Paperman (2012) Discussion > The first of its kind

The first of its kind


So, this is a test of a new technology that will show us a kind of animation never seen before? I really hope it lives up to the hype. If it does, the question is what this mean for the future of animation.

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That's BS.

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Sorry, but the only BS here is your post.

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You really believe this toon will bring some amazing, never-before-seen technology and create animation unlike anything we've ever seen before? Yeah. Right.

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[deleted]

I know what it is, because I have read a lot of articles about it already, including the one you are linking to. It is what it says it is; handdrawn animation with the stability and depth of CGI. And the technology and look is something new that has not been seen before. The animators can also twist and change their lines after they have drawn it. From another article:


"It’s not like a texture map. It’s just like painting on the surface of the CG. It actually moves on a 2d layer that’s driven by the CG. And the greatest thing about the tool is that all of that drawing is right up front with the hand drawn animator; right there in their space so they can see what they’re doing. They don’t have to send it off on some blackbox that processes it and then it comes back. It stays right in front of them and they can see everything that they’re doing.

And as much as I loved Tangled – and I feel like we’re in a golden age right now with CG – all the studios today are competing with a stylized form of realism. I have to believe that’s not the only way that animation can look. I feel like 2D needs to come into the place where it can compete with a big blockbuster movie that has tons of cg and so forth. We have to push the processes and techniques and see where we can take them.

In Paperman, we didn’t have a cloth department and we didn’t have a hair department. Here, folds in the fabric, hair silhouettes and the like come from of the commited design decision-making that comes with the 2D drawn process. Our animators can change things, actually erase away the CG underlayer if they want, and change the profile of the arm. And they can design all the fabric in that Milt Kahl kind-of way, if they want to."

That sounds like something new to me.

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I don't agree that it is exactly what have been done for 75 years, but I guess we just have to wait and see what it looks like.

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don't listen to these cynics. it is going to be groundbreaking

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I know. But the sad thing is that the more revolutionary something is, the more certain posters insist that it is nothing special at all.

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because they don't know about *beep* this tech will be able to merge 2D animators and 3d animators together. we will be able to save the 2D animation artform from destruction by hiring more for shorts like this and possibly a movie. it is amazing

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I saw a screening of Wreck-It tonight and we got to see this before too.

It is BEAUTIFUL. The animation, in particular, is beautiful, but the story is as well. I can't say I sat there thinking, "Oh my goodness, look at the future of animation", but I'm no expert in animation. All I can say is that it is a wonderful new short by Disney.

Philippians 4:13
Faith is being sure of what you hope for, and certain of what you do not see.

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[deleted]

You just say that because you are not able to see what's revolutionary about the short.

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Wow. I had no idea. I have to say, I didn't really notice the animation being groundbreaking, but maybe that's a good thing.

I was just SO involved and enraptured by the short that - I don't know really. I guess maybe that just means it felt so photo realistic I barely noticed? I loved the animation anyway. Just everything about it. In retrospect, it did feel very crisp and fresh, and it's comforting to think it could give new life to the hand drawn animation industry. You know, yeah really in retrospect I preferred it to the standard CGI quite a bit, and I liked it more than hand drawn too. So I guess it kind of is groundbreaking in that small way. I would love to see more films like it.

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If you didn't notice it and just took it for granted, then I think it has achieved its goal. Disney probably hope people are gonna feel that it'something natural. Maybe it's that Glen Keane meant a couple of years ago when he said "What I’ve spent my time doing is taking what I like about hand-drawn, and putting it into the computer. I’d like to take some time and take what the computer can do, and put that into hand-drawn." I'm curious to see what a feature in colors using this technique will look like.

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Well I did notice it and didn't take it for granted. I'm sort of a nerd for these types of things so I certainly appreciated it for what it was.

I know you're very excited about this technology and technique, but to be honest, after seeing it a couple more times, I honestly think that the films strengths were more to do with the directing - those sublime quick cuts between scenes - and the story and definitely the score. There was an intimacy that the hybrid 2d-cg technique allowed that perhaps straight CGI does not, and a depth that 2d maybe can't give, but I think the technique was kind of bottom of the rung of the films many strengths. It was just that rare gem that could make you laugh and cry at the same time.

I'm more excited about what this could do for the industry, putting 2-d drawing back on the map and hopefully influencing movie houses to pour that extra heart and soul actual pencil work involves, than I maybe am about the actual effect. It's almost like 3-d to me; it's occasionally nice, but not necessarily the paradigm-shifting thing people make it out to be.

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Actually, it was the production of animated projects I had in mind, and what the technology allows the animators to do.

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Have you seen it? What did you think of the new technology?

It's always funny to me that people think that leaps in technology are going to be obvious. The idea here is to be invisible, as it often is with special effects.

For every lie I unlearn I learn something new - Ani Difranco

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OK. I have now seen it on both the theatre and on youtube, and it has great potential. But there is something in the movements that gives it away as CGI, and it is reason to believe that it has to do with the fact that the inbetweens were done by computers instead of human hands. Done right in future projects, it's gonna take the hand-drawn look to new hights.

This is what I mean. If you look at animation done with computer techniques, the movements has a certain feel to them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrKXH1CeXck

About 15 years ago, they made a test for a sequel to Roger Rabbit done with computer animation. It was first drawn by hand, and then done as CGI, and it looks just as smooth as a traditional cartoon. The whole test is meant as a "look what we can do" demonstration, and succeeds too:

http://www.cartoonbrew.com/cgi/roger-rabbit-cg-test-28194.html

Now, if you see Paperman, the animation is excellent, but it has some of the same feel from the first clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqmh1GoZjnw

I'm not sure what it is. Maybe it's the feeling that there is a touch of real time movements in the animation, and ironically, that makes it feel less real.

But this was a small project with a small team. Maybe a bigger project with a larger crew and even better technology can do something about it. If they first use the CGI models to explore all the different angles and positions, draw key features over the tablets, and then have inbetween artists take care of the rest before rendering, then it could truly represent the best of both worlds. If it should turn out too expensive and/or time consuming, then it simply means that more traditional hand-drawn animation can still offer something computer animated movies can't. Personally, I hope Disney is able to remove the special CGI look still present. If not, it's gonna be interesting to see what the future will bring anyway.

And yes, it's too bad so many people don't realize that the more invisible, subtle and discrete a technology is, the better it is in fulfilling its purpose. No all leaps have to be flashing and extravagant. It's like complaining that the tiger in Life of Pi was nothing special, because it didn't look any different from a real tiger.

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I just saw this last night. It was beautiful. I didn't even put it together that I was watching hand drawn animation in 3D. I could tell it was hand drawn, and that it was in 3D, but it didn't even cross my mind that I hadn't seen that before. It was just breathtaking. I hope there is more to come. So grateful that John Lasseter is so dedicated to hand drawn animation and the preservation of it.

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I would really like to see Disney do some experimentation with it. For instance; first make a 30 seconds scene using the old techniques, and then remaking the same scene with the Paperman technique. Will there be any differences other than a more dimensional feel? Will the first test be able to show something that the second can't?

Andreas Deja and John Lasseter about the production of The Princess and the Frog:

"I always thought that maybe we should distinguish ourselves to go back to what 2D is good at, which is focusing on what the line can do rather than volume, which is a CG kind of thing. So we are doing less extravagant Treasure Planet kind of treatments. You have to create a world but we're doing it more simply. What we're trying to do with Princess and the Frog is hook up with things that the old guys did earlier. It's not going to be graphic..."

"And there is a way that Louis moves, we call squash and stretch, with the bounciness of all his fat and the liveliness of him. And when it's done in traditional animation, there's a believability to a character moving around like that. If you were to do it in computer animation, it would be done totally differently, and I think having Eric animate him the way he did it, it's so perfect. It's the squash and stretch. It's the weight. It's the believability of this large character being able to move around quite like that. And the same way Dopey, you know, there is a flexibility, a squash and stretch bounciness that he's got that I think is so perfect."

But this was before Paperman. But it would still be nice to know if there is something that more traditional hand drawn does better than the style in Paperman. Take the short Nessie as an example. What would this cartoon look if made in the same way as paperman?

It was once said that a computer would never be able to replicate the way the dwarfs are dancing in Snow White during the Silly Song. Would it be possible today? Then there is the opening scene in Pinicchio, the morning scene when it's Pinocchio first day at school or when we see Gepetto on his own inside the belly of the whale, which are good demonstrations of the multiplane camera. The difference between more classic animation and CGI is that the backgrounds were just a flat and simple in the old days (with the exception of some Fleischer cartoons). When the multiplane camera was used, it was numerous layers of flat images. But doing something that the computer have made possible today, was impossible back then. So what would the opening scene in Pinocchio look like if they had present day computers back than?

Then we have old cartoons like Mickey's Trailer. Anyone who remembers how Goofy's car moved on the road? It looked as flexible as rubber. Making a CGI movie with cars who moved like that would look weird (the cars in Cars moved in their own way). Because computer animation looks more realistic in many ways, the objects have to be more realistic as well. But could it work if the new tools had been made to make some old school stuff? I guess they then had to add hand drawn lines on non-living objects as well, like bikes and other things. But it would have the hand drawn feel to them. And how would Hayao Miyazaki use the technique. In Ponyo on a Cliff, everythins is drawn by hand from what I have heard. But the colors of the characters is as far as I know done with computer. Also the scanning of the images and such is done with computers. So the studio clearly use them where they make good use. Which is why I, as mentioned, would like the see how the Japanese director would use some of the modern digital tools.

Of course, there are some styles that wouldn't require CGI, like the old UPA and Hubley cartoons. But that kind of animation has been absent from the theatres for a long time now.

Either way; if original hand drawn animation has something special to offer that the new style doesn't do as well or maybe can't do at all, they should show us what it is, and then maybe make a feature where these elements are some of the main foundatiosn for the animation style. It would also serve as a reminder for the audience why it is important to keep all the animation forms alive, including the oldest ones.

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