Didnt deserve the oscar
I thought the hunt was much better!!
shareI loved "The Hunt" too!
I read somewhere that the voters for best foreign film are not required to see the films nominated. That might explain why "The Great Beauty" won the Oscar, after winning a few other awards (including the Golden Globe). Perhaps some members of the Academy chose this movie because of that.
"Humans fear what they don't understand, and they hate what they fear."
Agreed. The Hunt is an absolute masterpiece and Mads Mikkelsen performance was overwhelming. I didn't know that voters are not required to see the films nominated. This explains a lot of things :(
Anyway, being Italian, I'm proud of Sorrentino. He's one of our best directors today and I'm happy he got international aknowkledgment. At least, "The Great Beauty" is a lot better film than the ridiculously overrated Benigni's "Life is Beautiful" ;)
Finally, someone on this website recognizes that Life is Beautiful is absolutely overrated.
And you are Italian, which makes this even more incredible.
Cumplimenti for your good taste on cinema.
By the way, although The Great Beauty is a pretty decent movie, it is ironic now when we look back and realise that Fellini's La Dolce Vitta only won Best Costume Design.
Anyways, The Hunt should have won and Mads Mikkelsen deserved at least a Best Actor nomination as well.
My opinion about "Life is Beautiful" is not very popular in Italy, indeed. Benigni is considered a sort of genius here and that makes him basically untouchable. However, the 2 films he made after winning the Oscar were both flops, so, luckily, it's been 9 years since we saw his last film ;)
Returning to the main topic, yes, it's quite ironic that the Academy rewarded The Great Beauty and not Fellini's La dolce vita, that cleary inspired Sorrentino. As it's crazy that Alfonso Cuaron won the best director Oscar for Gravity, while Stanley Kubrick never won one in his entire career!
Exactly!
I share the same opinion about Gravity and 2001
It won 7 Oscars while Kubrick's 2001 won just one for Visual Effects.
That's so inconsistent!
Guys I'm just gonna state the obvious here
Members of the Acedemy that voted and didn't vote for La Dolce Vita and 2001 are largely dead/retired today
They aren't the same people who voted for Gravity and La Grande Bellezza
The Academy isn't an ancient God, it's a group of people
They change over the years... cause you know, they're... people
:)
You're absolutely right. But still, isn't it ate least ironic that the movies who served as inspiration for those got much less recognition than their succesors?
shareI'm Italian and Life Is Beautiful is not only overrated but ridiculous. Benigni is a joke. And for the most part Italian films are horrid. Poorly acted and poorly written. Italian actors today are atrocious. Not sure what happened in the last 30 plus years since Italy used to be one of the leaders in Cinema.
shareYou and me both, pal: "Life is Beautiful" found itself in the right place at the right time, when no other WW2-themed tear jerkers had been available, and filled the quota. But the operation immediately felt tacky, disingenuous; history hasn't been kind to it either, with reviewers openly admitting it to be a movie best left forgotten.
shareOk, we get it. Some folks don't like LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL. But, to confer that over to THE GREAT BEAUTY and to declare that Italy hasn't made good movies over the past three decades is ridiculous!
GOMORRAH, IL DIVO, AND THE SHIP SAILS ON, NIGHT OF THE SHOOTING STARS, IL LADRO DI BAMBINI, CINEMA PARADISO, I'M NOT SCARED, VINCERE, LAMERICA and, yes, THE GREAT BEAUTY -- just off the top of my head.
For such a relatively small filmmaking country, not a bad list (in fact, quite an impressive one). And, those are culled from only those films that even get a release in the U.S..
Hate on Benigni all you want - but, don't drag down the rich history of Italian cinema with it. After all, it has won more Foreign Language Best Picture Oscars than any other nation.
By the way, I think Felini's La Strada won best foriegn language film over Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurais was ridiculous, too. Both of them are masterpiece, indeed. But the better one...you know...
shareFelini's La Strada won best foriegn language film over Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurais was ridiculous, too.
Except they never competed against one another.
LA STRADA beat The Captain from Köpenick, Gervaise, The Burmese Harp (The Japanese entry) and Qivitoq.
SEVEN SAMURAI was never the official Japanese Oscar submission for the Foreign Language award. It did get Nominations for Art Direction and Costume Design. share
Message received. But, NO NOMINATION?Wouldn't it make it even more ridiculous? And also, films like City of God, Amelie, Farewell my concubine, Yojinbo, To live doesn't win or get nom, too.
shareBut, NO NOMINATION?Wouldn't it make it even more ridiculous? And also, films like City of God, Amelie, Farewell my concubine, Yojinbo, To live doesn't win or get nom, too.
You do know the Oscar rules, right? Blame JAPAN they are the ones who didn't submit SEVEN SAMURAI. No submission, no possible nomination in the Foreign Language category. And, Japan also didn't submit YOJIMBO (so, they are to "blame"). TO LIVE was also NOT submitted (blame China).
AMELIE and FAREWELL MY CONCUBINE were nominated in their respective years. Time to brush up on your google skills............. share
Films are never overrated. They are rated exactly as they should be. Just because you didn't agree with the majority opinion doesn't mean that you are right and that others are wrong, nor vice versa. People have different opinions.
share"Films are never overrated. They are rated exactly as they should be."
Sorry, but this statement makes no sense at all.
Films are constantly overrated (several animated movies on TOP 250, for instance, are), while some true gems are way overlooked/underrated.
This happens all the time beacuse people usually base their votes on subjective criteria and personal taste rather than broader aspects and artistic value, which is a shame.
eventhough i agree that some movies may seem overrated they in fact are not. The anime movies you mentioned are some movies that i found to be outstanding and deserve their place. Some i think shouldn't even make it to the top 1000. But then, that's just what i think.
and therein lies the crux.
When the vast majority deems a movie worth a place in list then it deserves exactly that place in the list. There's no reason someone's opinion should be any less valid then yours. and since you mentioned the top 250. There are no criteria for it and therefor every movie on it deserves its place.
Just because you don't agree with the criteria the majority (you think) used does not mean their ratings don't count. and even then every opinion, even artistic value, is subjective. and be glad that it is. It would be a boring world if it wasn't.
even then every opinion, even artistic value, is subjective
But "subjective" does not mean "of equal merit."
One kind of validity derives from the simple existence of, and entitlement to, an opinion or personal preference. Hard to dispute that. But there is another kind of validity which derives from the quality of reasoning and perception underlying it. And that kind of validity of opinion is certainly open to ranking in quality against others, from praise to dismissal.
The refrain that everyone’s opinion is equally valid is a Teflon defence against criticism. One can always fall back on “It’s my opinion, so it’s valid.” Such an attitude guarantees stagnation because a person considers their opinion perfectly formed.
Of course each subjective take on anything is justified in the banal and limited sense that it's of the person’s own making. But that narrow meaning of validity doesn't mean that whatever we feel or think is a personal ideal, a consummate experience. It doesn't mean we've seen everything perfectly, or even as well as others.
In our everyday affairs we don’t grant equal authority to everyone on given subjects. I enjoy wine, but I couldn’t get hired as a sommelier. It would do me no good to insist to potential restaurant employers that my opinion on wine is just as valid as any other's since it's subjective.
If you want to invest your money effectively, you research the best investment advisors or fund managers; you don’t equally credit gossip from some guy in a bar.
When you hear a rattle in your car’s engine, you take it to an expert mechanic to locate the source and repair it; you don’t take it to the little old lady next door for her opinion.
When Hemingway wanted feedback on his work he turned to Gertrude Stein, not any random person.
When evidence is brought to bear, certain opinions are so inaccurate and undiscerning as to be reasonably considered wrong. For example, not only the inability to recognize clichés, but mistaking them for complexity. That doesn't mean that the opinion of someone whose perception is more acute is the last word. It simply means it's a better word. They're more insightful, more accurate - more right - than the other person.
great reply. truly a fine read.
However this does not adres the issue here. and i don't totally agree. Yes a sommelier might suggest the best wine, that does not mean you think it's any good. does it mean the wine is any less? no, it just means if the general public doesn't like it it won't get a good rating if they are left to decide. the imdb boards (and to an extent the oscars) aren't decided by a sommelier. they are decided by the masses, for whom i might add the movie was made in the first place. eventhough most viewers will know little about camera techniques or photography or whatever it does not in any way discount their opinion. remember, they are not stating facts, just opinions.
also you presume to know how people voted, which criteria they used. that is ludicrous. you assume that people that rated a certain movie too high or too low (by your own opinion) don't know what they're talking about. that just seems odd to me.
Yes i agree some opinions i value more then others (while not discounting them) but that's not what this is about. you're going to extremes with the mechanic and the old lady, this is not the case with films. if my buddy tells me i have a flat tire i won't go running to the mechanic to have it confirmed. He has had enough driving experience for his opinion to hold merrit. i believe the same principle aplies to movies. and certainly to imdb ratings.
if you want a movie judged differently then go to the sight and sound director's polls. these were judged by "experts" and yet they vary every time, because even then it's just their opinion.
Thanks!
I was addressing an issue you raised, that "There's no reason someone's opinion should be any less valid then yours." I think there may very well be a reason or reasons why an opinion might be less or more valid than another. Mine included!
We're talking means and ends, apples and oranges. You're focused on the end, and saying that a person's expression of like or dislike is valid simply because it exists. And that is indeed a reality not to be denied.
However, I think that expressions of relative pleasure are the least important aspects of opinions. I've focused on means, on what a person saw and heard and felt, the elements that influenced their judgment. From that perspective, an opinion can be informed by less or greater accuracy than another and so have greater or lesser validity in terms of quality. Strictly speaking, one stands to gain much less from knowing the end result, the expression of relative pleasure, than from knowing how it was formed.
You can see the confusion of means and ends in the following paradox: according to your logic you must accept as valid my opinion that opinions are of unequal validity. You must stop finding fault with my opinion because it is valid.
even though most viewers will know little about camera techniques or photography or whatever it does not in any way discount their opinion.
If we're focused on the means by which an opinion is formed, then relative awareness of the causes of effects do make for a superior opinion. If we're focused only on ends, on expressions of pleasure or displeasure, then no opinion can be held superior to another.
And I'm not talking about necessarily discounting opinions, I'm talking about placing them on a scale of accuracy. Obviously some opinions will be so demonstrably inaccurate that they should be discounted. That's only reasonable.
you presume to know how people voted, which criteria they used.
I do? Where did I imply that?
you assume that people that rated a certain movie too high or too low (by your own opinion) don't know what they're talking about.
Nothing I've said implies that I assume in advance that people with different valuations of a movie than mine don't know what they're talking about. I make no such assumption.
I may know "what I'm talking about" strictly in the sense that I have perfect knowledge of a limited perspective. For example, if I watch a movie shot only in one room, I may with perfect knowledge say that it was shot only in one room. But if that's all I saw, then to "know what I'm talking about" according to that perfect but highly limited knowledge isn't worth much.
To take a personal example, I am working to appreciate Godard; many people value certain of his films a great deal more than I currently do, yet I don't presume that they don't know what they're talking about. Since I have not yet learned how to appreciate his work beyond a very simple level, I don't credit my opinions about it with much validity. I might say I don't like it, but that judgment isn't worth much since I lack clarity on the subject.
if my buddy tells me i have a flat tire i won't go running to the mechanic to have it confirmed. He has had enough driving experience for his opinion to hold merrit. i believe the same principle aplies to movies. and certainly to imdb ratings.
You're choosing an equal but opposite extreme, an example of a highly simple condition. Some movies are indeed that extremely simple, and therefore demand little experience, energy, imagination, perceptiveness, etc. to fully appreciate them. In my experience, opinions about movies that simple are fairly accurate. Most people can see the flat tire or whatever. But that doesn't mean their opinions will hold equal merit when it comes to more complex conditions.
if you want a movie judged differently then go to the sight and sound director's polls.
Or I can stay and read posts on the IMDb Message Boards (or any other boards) to see how people judged a movie, how informed various opinions are, and accordingly make comparisons as to their relative validity. I might supplement that reading with checking out Sight and Sound... or better yet, David Bordwell's blog @ http://www.davidbordwell.net/blog, since it is all about causes, means, process. But the point is that whether I read here or there, the focus is no different; I am still prioritizing the means by which people arrived at their conclusions.
i think we're on different tracks here. but i'll adress an important issue as it leaves me curious.
Films are constantly overrated (several animated movies on TOP 250, for instance, are), while some true gems are way overlooked/underrated.
if your previous post about people having opinions that don't hold merrit still holds, it would imply the people over- or underrating movies would have such opinions would it not?
Therefor i can only come to the conclusion that you think that the overrated movies got there by being voting on by people who's opinions should be less valued. for if you assumed they had opinions that should be valued and did have merrit the movies could not have been overrated but will have been rated justly and deserve their place in the list.
and if you do not presume to know how people voted how can you state a movie is over- or underrated. the opinions given and the rating that followed could very well have been done so by people with knowledge. thereby legitimising it's rating.
and as for finding out those reasonigs, the number of votes a movie gets far outnumbers the posts on the imdb boards. i don't think you would get an accurate estimate of the reasoning behind the ratings that way.
that's about as acurate as i can put it. english is not my native tongue. by the time i've translated things in my head my mind is already miles ahead of it in terms of thinking.
the reason i chose the flat tire is simular. i already knew it was a poor example but i have no knowledge of cars to use another. besides a steer and some tires i couldn't name another carpart that could be causing a problem :)
the example is an important one though. if a movie is too complicated for the masses it was created for, should anyone be surprised if the ratings seem off? you could reason that the public needs to inform themselves, or perhaps that the director should use a different path. but that's a whole other issue. one that i'm not getting into as i have conflicting thoughts about it.
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My point about some opinions not having merit refers to wildly inaccurate ones, where people fail to see even the most obvious qualities.
But if I think some people have merely over or under-rated a movie, that doesn't mean I think every one of those opinions has no merit. Ends, conclusions, can be of different quality than means, or analysis. Opinions aren't a single whole, namely the end, or conclusion, but many parts. Therefore I can find much of an analysis to be well-observed, yet still find the conclusion flawed.
And when it comes to over- or under-rating a movie, this involves comparison (analysis) to other movies, which means the capacity to see clearly is even more important since we must consider much greater context than just one movie on its own.
In this way I may find that a percentage of opinions on a movie have value and merit, yet still find the collective ranking of opinions unfair, unjustified, or whatever.
as for finding out those reasonigs, the number of votes a movie gets far outnumbers the posts on the imdb boards. i don't think you would get an accurate estimate of the reasoning behind the ratings that way.
Quite true, and thus I don't give ratings much attention. I might find a film's rating too high or low, but that doesn't mean I necessarily discount all the opinions of those who voted it a very high or very low rank. It means I think the aggregate conclusion is off, and that a percentage of the voters who ranked it either very high or very low are off. But parts of their opinions, their analysis, may well have some merit.
LOL the car part problem! Wine is better.
if a movie is too complicated for the masses it was created for, should anyone be surprised if the ratings seem off?
Probably not! But how many movies created for the masses are too complicated? I wouldn't think very many. It seems to me that complicated movies are made for people who are able to appreciate them, or at least who have an attitude of wanting to apply themselves to appreciate them.
It is interesting to consider the comparison of Citizen Kane with Ford's How Green Was My Valley, the latter film beating the former for the Oscar that year. Kane is typically ranked near the top, while Valley is not ranked so high. I think it is significant that in some ways Valley is much simpler than Kane, less complicated. And simplicity is itself consistently an under-valued quality. To make a delicious dish with only a few ingredients, you must be a master. (Not that Valley literally had only a few ingredients!)
Thanks for elaborating, i have a better understanding of your reasoning now. and while i still don't fully agree i do see some merrits in it that i'll take into consideration next time. and that to me is what these discussions are all about.
shareI love what you said. Totally agree.
shareIt may be true that they're not required to watch all the nominated films, but if anything that's an explanation for why a film might LOSE the Oscar, not win it. If a voter hasn't seen all the nominees, they're much more likely to vote for a film they have seen rather than one they haven't.
Both this and The Hunt are excellent films. I slightly prefer this one, but why compare them?
I know everything about film. I've seen over 240 of them.
Maybe hunt was too depressing to get oscar?
*beep* movies
The Academy tries to keep it as fair as possible so you are only allowed to vote for Foreign Language Film and the Short Films for the Oscars if you attend special screenings of those films. This is to make sure that only the votes of people that have seen the films will be counted.
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