The last 3 films I've watched, "Frances Ha," "Only God Forgives", and "Prince Avalanche" have all had something interesting in them. In a world filled with a never-ending supply of superhero movies, torture porn, bodily fluid drenced comedies, etc, it's great that we still have movies that are smaller in scope, less commerical, and more personal. Frances Ha is one of the best, if not the best film, I've seen in 2013.
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@ imnotazombie I agree!
shareWe are all subjective beings. Some just have more installed biases than others, intentional and aware of it or not.
Prince Avalanche was amazing, Only God Forgives is some pretentious *beep* up *beep* that wasn't good from any angle, and I didn't really enjoy Frances Ha as much as I thought I might because of poor acting from the very first words to come out of actors mouths -- so untruthful, shallow, on the nose. Sandy would turn in his grave if he'd seen this; not sure how critics tolerate this poor excuse for thespian skills.
shareWhy? Because "Ha" was Woody Allen lite, watered-down Woody Allen for privileged and/or flaky 20-somethings, the kind of people that "explore their artistic ambitions" in NYC while their parents and trust funds pay their ways. Have you lived in Manhattan? It's a VERY EXPENSIVE place, one that chews-up and spits-out people like Frances unless they've a "safety net" in place. (Also, ATM machines are EVERYWHERE.) I know this -- I was friends with a "Frances Ha" that moved to NYC and like Frances, she couldn't be bothered with a steady job and keeping an apartment but unlike Frances she landed herself in a homeless shelter for women...imagine how "Ha" would've been received had it really been true-to-life. Further, in my younger daze I knew a few Frances Ha-types and while they were generally charming and fun to be around, they were usually flaky, unreliable, irresponsible, and self-absorbed.
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re: smarmy 20-somethings full of themselves, do-nothing jobs and somehow affording $1,200 a month rent on three/four bedroom apartments. Jet-setting off to Japan, France, Sacramento.
$1,200 a month?!? You're kidding, right? In Manhattan, 5 or 10 or so years ago, maybe. (I used to live in NYC -- a parking space costs that much.) It's a FANTASY for yuppies and trust-fund babies, a movie pretending to be a "slice of real life." And I agree, the "happy ending" seemed WAY too pat, especially for a person as flaky/flighty as Frances.
Ever get the feeling most screenwriters and/or directors have NO idea how most "real" people (at least, people that don't come from money or make less that $100K a year) live?
THAT's why "some feel the need to trash" this movie.
Get your facts straight man, 1200$ was only her share of the rent.
One of her roommates said the rent was something like 4000$ a month.
Trigger happy much?
re: One of her roommates said the rent was something like 4000$ a month.
Oh, well, knowing that makes the movie so much more true-to-life...better, even.
What's your obsession with "true to life" and "real"? I generally watch films for a bit of escapism so they don't need to be 100% real like some sort of documentary.
I found the film and the character quite charming. I enjoyed her ditzyness or "Flakiness" as you put it and it's the kind of fun girl I'd like to be friends with. Just for the record I am neither rich nor a trust fund kid and work hard at running my own business.
Frances was not full of herself, so you must have some other axe to grind. Dancing is not a do-nothing job, and neither is the admin job she took at the end.
And I feel compelled to say your little homily about how people really live is not always true; I've worked in theatre all my adult life and I know plenty of actors who survived in NY just as Frances scrapes by. It doesn't work out forever, but it does happen on a daily basis, Mr Reality.
Some of the crappiest movie analysis I see on the internet falls into the category of Literalists. "That's not how it was", like it's some kind of documentary. Perhaps if you had owned a cafe in Morocco, you would trash 'Casablanca' as well.
Would it really change things if there was another roommate or two to share living expenses? The important plot point is that her dear Sophie makes plans without her. Focusing in on rent is the hobgoblin of little minds.
Thank you. Spot on. It's too bad the OP had to ask such a silly question as "why do some people feel the need to trash?" Feel the need...to have an intelligent, independent opinion?? So weird, right? I wonder why the OP "felt the need" to assume everyone should be impressed with this dribble. I've seen better film on teeth.
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Yes it's true, I've also known Young arty types wafting around safe in the knowledge that mummy and daddy can bail them out at any moment... And that to be fair is touched upon in the film; one guy takes a loan from his stepfather and spends it on antique Raybans; and Francis says she's poor, he points out that no really she isn't and that is an insult to truly poor people... None of them are really in financial peril. But that's not really what the film is about; it's about being lost; its about her becoming more reliable, less flaky, more independent – the last scene is her moving into her own apartment, and writing her own name for the mailbox. Hey, who knows, she might even grow up.
shareAgreed!
I'll tell you in another life when we are both cats.
They feel the need to trash because they didn't like those films. Just like you feel the need to trash the never-ending supply of superhero movies, torture porn, bodily fluid drenched comedies etc.
~.~
I WANT THE TRUTH! http://www.imdb.com/list/ze4EduNaQ-s/
If you want to praise a movie because it's 'small' or 'not superhero', then go right ahead.
And I'll feel free to say that this is a movie about self-absorbed young people who can't grow up and for whom New York is a life full of adventure and wonder. Boring.
And, sorry for being so 'establishment', but at some point we gotta stop glorifying this 'I can't figure out what I wanna do when I grow up' deal. It's as toxic to culture as Iron Man Part XI.
Finally, as a former Manhattanite (is that a word?) from the 80's, I also question the realism of a lot of these kinds of scenarios. I'm assuming mom and dad are footing the bill. I just can't imagine how any of these delightful characters... or those in Friends or -whatever- can afford to live on the island... or all those quaint parts of Brooklyn for that matter. Seems like just as much a fantasy trip as many superhero movies.
In short, I'm sure everyone under a certain age would tell me to lighten up, dude, but, if you think about it, it's just another flavour of 'stoner' movie. And I never got the joke with those, either.
Unless you are talking about Mother Theresa, I will assume your use of 'self-absorbed' describes the daily life of almost all people on the planet.
The film is not about people who 'can't grow up.' Though it is a tricky film that plays with the audiences perceptions. I have already posted this before, but here is the short version:
The film sets up the audience to feel superior (as clearly you do) to Frances. At first it is little, silly things, but it evolves into huge, breath-takingly stupid decisions (her one day trip to Paris) so that even total clods in the audience will feel that they have it over her.
Contrast that with the totally responsible, great-job, adapting to her boyfriend, serious-minded Sophie.
But Sophie is the one who winds up hating her watershed decisions: her impending marriage, her switch to Tokyo, her abandonment of her soul mate, and the compromises she has had to make. At the end of it all, Frances and her bad decisions don't really amount to more than a maturation process that everyone needs to go through.
Plus she finally gets to have that moment with her person, looking across the room. Hard to ask for more, really.
As far as the realism goes, I do not understand your problem. Yes, the film openly acknowledges that their families help out. Would it make you feel better if they threw in another roommate to share the rent - as people do in NYC? What is the big deal? Would it really change all that much of the film? Would that sate your thirst for 'realism?' I suppose if you ever worked at a newspaper, you would be upset with Citizen Kane, or if you ever fought in a war you would deride The Longest Day. Thank God when Shakespeare was writing The Merchant of Venice, you were not around to question the pound of flesh. Most all literature and creativity would grind to a halt with your rigid embrace of realism.
Manhattan seems to be doing fine without you.
I think 'my problem' is that, for better or worse, these sorts of things are role models. As was Easy Rider in my day.
And looking back, regardless of the 'artistic merits', I'm not so sure that's such a great idea.
All these movies now seem to me, intentionally or otherwise, to glorify some pretty crappy behaviour... or at least make it seem OK... as you write, 'a maturation process'.
In my view, the fact that Frances is portrayed as 'the heroine' and not Sophie... who -is- trying to be responsible... says something about the culture.
In short, these things, movies are cultural/political statements and not just entertainment. And the message doesn't seem quite as uplifting to me as it does to you.
Frances and her goof-ups are not at all being glorified or used as role models. Her bahavior becomes ridiculously dysfunctional. It's comic; it's a joke. Nobody really goes on a capricious one day trip to Paris. And then falls asleep the whole day.
The point is: How about marrying someone you don't love? Giving up your career for a spouse? Living in a place you don't like? Because of a tiff, ignoring your best friend in the world? These are decisions supposedly mature people make all the time.
Yes, it says something about the culture. That our derision of others is often facile, empty, and misplaced.
"The point is: How about marrying someone you don't love? Giving up your career for a spouse? Living in a place you don't like? Because of a tiff, ignoring your best friend in the world? These are decisions supposedly mature people make all the time."
Yep. And the first 3 out of 4 are not necessarily the wrong decision for the majority of people drawing breath on planet earth.
For you, it's entertainment. For me? It's something of an enabler.
The good news is that most people agree with you. Enjoy!
mail,
I think you are in effect concluding that the film is intended to be taken as a paean to the character type that is Frances. And in so doing she is put forth as a sort of role model. I did not see the film to stand for that at all.
My experience of the film is that we understand Frances to be struggling with he attempts to find authenticity and meaning in her life. But to think that the choices and points of emphasis she makes and asserts are held up as "the right ones" is incorrect, and not at all what is going on. To take the obvious example the flight to Paris was clearly a big mistake. More to the point is why Frances did that, and why it fell short for her, and most of all what she learned from it.
But I must also say that someone who thinks that marrying someone you don't love is not necessarily a wrong decision is too cynical a worldview by a long stretch.
Frances is a searcher. Her search leads to discoveries at times, but also to cul de sacs at others. Even the notion of a true friend who will not betray is complicated. Yes Frances is generally right to want friendships that are authentic, and she reacts when Sophie's choices are questionable at best. but of course Sophie is also on a search, only with her making her own decisions. And however they grate on Frances.
In short I do not see the film at all as presenting Frances as an enabler.
No I don't think of it as a 'paean'. I think of it as an -apologia- for a certain class of self-indulgent people. It doesn't overtly glorify her as make her a sympathetic figure. But the end result is much the same.
I've grown old enough to realise, in a sort of 'Buddhist' way that everything is sending multiple messages. When yer young you think you're in control of what you experience and -no one- can tell you that yer being affected by this stuff in ways you can't control.
We had the same kinds of movies when I was a kid. When I was 16, I watched 'Easy Rider'... and thought it had a very positive message. Now I realise it was sending some very ugly messages about people of -my- generation that we just would not have listened to. And I think the same thing here.
To me, she's a guilty pleasure. She's kind of the Honey Boo Boo of her class. On paper, one may say she's not the greatest person... or say that you're laughing -at- her. But she also sort of an 'OK' to be like her if you can afford to do so. So long as yer 'nice' and well-intentioned, make all the mistakes you can afford to make. Take as long as you want to grow up. It may be rough, but it all works out in the end.
This probably all sounds over-the-top Marxist or Libertarian (or worse 'OLD GUY' :D ), but the world could do with a few more movies that model competent young people, behaving responsibly (not super heroes) and perhaps even overtly ridiculing their self-indulgent friends.
I'm sure such a movie would sell at least two dozen tickets.
mail,
You clearly have an agenda here, but it is rather incoherent. Marxist or Libertarian? You realize those are rather distinctly different sets of theories? One would hope.
Among other problems with your pov I do not at all see the film as "excusing" Frances's mistakes. Yes, despite the mistakes the film still sees her humanity. That is a problem for you?
Your aside about Easy Rider is too revealing. It is in fact neither a positive message or an ugly one. It is a film about people trying to come up with answers to questions they are not familiar with. For example, consider the interlude at the commune in the Southwest. On one hand we see an earnest attempt to "get back to nature", but it is also understood as problematic. You obviously did not get it then just as you do not get it now.
Perhaps you are having a similar difficulty with Frances Ha.
re: these movies now seem to me, intentionally or otherwise, to glorify some pretty crappy behaviour... or at least make it seem OK... as you write, 'a maturation process'. / ...the fact that Frances is portrayed as 'the heroine' and not Sophie... who -is- trying to be responsible... says something about the culture.
INTERESTING viewpoint! Just like in the movie Rent, wherein the starving artist-ic types -- you know, the ones that steal bank machines, kill dogs, work as strippers, and seem to think making a living and/or paying rent is beneath them -- are portrayed as "heroic" and the schumucks that, I dunno, work for a living are seen as sell-outs or vampiric. [And believe it or not, I have lots of friends that are musicians, writers, etc. -- not all so-called creative types are like Frances or the clowns in Rent.]
Well... perhaps I'm a bit 'sensitive' because I make my living as a musician. The funny thing about being a musician is that, when I tell someone that, they automatically assume that it's not a profession so much as a 'lifestyle'... that one has that same <cough> 'bohemian' personality as Frances' crew. I've kinda gotten sick of movies about 'creative' goofballs. I'm sure gay people get sick of seeing gay florists... and arabs get tired of seeing arab terrorists. etc.
And BTW, I've played 'Rent'... and Grease... etc. and the same thought has crossed my mind: stop screwing around and get a job. :D
re: The funny thing about being a musician is that, when I tell someone that, they automatically assume that it's not a profession so much as a 'lifestyle'... that one has that same <cough> 'bohemian' personality as Frances' crew. I've kinda gotten sick of movies about 'creative' goofballs. I'm sure gay people get sick of seeing gay florists...
I hear ya, but I think the gay stereotype is more the "hairdresser" than the "florist" -- but I get yr point. I too am getting tired of the "creative goofball" stereotype in movies. Tho to be sure, that stereotype exists -- I was friends with a Frances Ha-type that carried around a sketchbook everywhere she went; she had an epiphany every 90 minutes or so, and wasn't all that concerned about making a living (she mooched off of people and her family was fairly well-to-do).
I'm loving your comments, shelemm. They're adding to my experience of the film.
I'm a big fan of Baumbach's previous work (especially Squid and the Whale and Margot at the Wedding), but hadn't seen this till it appeared on netflix streaming. It's incredible to me that people are seeing these complex, sometimes lost characters as "role models" (and what in the hell does Easy Rider have to do with this?!). I thought the film was a brilliant and quite moving look at some very real characters who are trying to survive and figure their lives out in a pretty alienated world. Complaining that they are "navel-gazing" and "self-absorbed" and that the film simply endorses these traits does it a serious injustice. I surrendered to the spell of it quickly and remained gripped throughout by the very flawed, human qualities of Frances et al. that have nothing to do with class or privilege.
alive,
I think at least some who raise such complaints as that the characters are self absorbed may have a basic tendency of preferring characters that do not seem to have any interior focus. Obviously those who prefer action films, and of course those who exclusively watch those films, are going to find the cliche label of navel gazing an appropriate put down.
But to be fair there are films out there that can take an interior focus too far. In short it is not a kind or category of criticism that is always inappropriate.
For myself I enjoyed Frances Ha very much, but the character of Frances did have some frustrating qualities where Frances herself might even acknowledge she could have been doing better at her attempts of relating to others.
On balance, though, I think this adds to the film's realism, however atypical one might contend her specific character is. It is not hte specific qualities of the character that undermine the persuasiveness of the portrayal, but instead lead to a recognition that as you say her flawed qualities make her more human, and appealing.
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