MovieChat Forums > The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies (2014) Discussion > Book readers, question on Thranduil

Book readers, question on Thranduil

posted 7 years ago by enchanted630
15 replies | jump to latest

Hi guys!

I have not read the books, so I believe because of that, I enjoyed the films. I recently watched the trilogy extended editions and enjoyed being immersed back into Middle Earth. :-)

The elves have always been my favorite aspect of this fantasy world. Legolas was always my favorite character until we met his father, King Thranduil. His character is so intimadating amd yet garners much respect. How much of his story is in the books? When the Battle lf the Five Armies end his storyline with him and Legolas parting, I was left with wanting more of Thranduil's story. We know where Legolas ends up (although would love to know if he and his father ever reunite), but what happens to Thranduil? Is there any Tolkein works on him? Was his characterization on film completely different than his character in the books?

I guess all in all, my question is, does his story continue elsewhere?

Thanks everyone! :-)

[–] Otaku-sempai 7 years ago

Thranduil isn't even named by Tolkien in The Hobbit; he only appears as the Elvenking of the Woodland Realm. The whole story about gems in the Mountain that were intended for Thranduil's wife is completely made up by Peter Jackson, Walsh and Boyens. Tolkien did write that the Elvenking had a love of gems and wanted to increase his treasury, but not much more than that. His main concern with Thorin's company was that the Dwarves could have been spies for the enemies of his kingdom. In the book he is much more reluctant to go to war over Erebor and its treasures.

From Tolkien, we don't even know whether Thranduil's wife is alive or dead; and Legolas wasn't invented until Tolkien was writing The Lord of the Rings, which explains why he never appears in the book of The Hobbit.

We do learn more about Thrandiul's later life in "The Tale of Years" in the Appendices. During the War of the Ring he led the defense of the Woodland Realm against attacks from out of Dol Guldur. After the war, Thranduil met with Celeborn of Lórien and they set the southern boundary of his realm at the Mountains of Mirkwood. Everything below the Narrows became East Lórien, and the forest in between was given over to the Woodmen. The Woodland Realm continued to prosper well into the Fourth Age.

"Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved." - T. Isabella

[–] enchanted630 7 years ago

Thank you for replying with such detail! It is truly amazing the work Tolkein put into his world of Middle Earth.

Were you dissappointed with the way he was portrayed on the film? Wife story aside, I just thought his presence and fighting skills were just super cool, as well as his look. He was elegant, genteel, beautiful, but powerful, wise, and strong. It's an interesting dynamic for his looks. I guess a lot of that kudos goes to the actor who played him and the wardrobe, makeup department, fight trainers, etc. But then add the reason as to Jackson and his team suggest for his moody, detached behavior, and you get a complex and fascinating character, in my opinion.

I will look into the "Tales of Years". I have been curious what he was up to while Legolas was journeying with the Fellowship during the LOTR trilogy.

Again, thank you so much for replying. :-)

[–] 7 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Otaku-sempai 7 years ago

Thank you for replying with such detail! It is truly amazing the work Tolkein put into his world of Middle Earth.

Were you dissappointed with the way he was portrayed on the film?

I was only disappointed that Thranduil was so unrelentingly grim and unforgiving. In the siege of the Lonely Mountain, the attitudes of Bard and Thranduil were almost reversed from the book.

"Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved." - T. Isabella

[–] enchanted630 7 years ago

That seems to be the fault I have discovered in my research as well.

The romantic novel reader in me understands his brooding behavior. Jackson's Thranduil is heartbroken, still mourning his wife from however long, and those jewels are something of hers he feels he needs desperately. Have you seen the deleted scene that didn't even make it into the extrended edition? I was sorely dissappointed they even clipped it out of the extended edition because its like a 30 second long scene. Gandalf reminds Thranduil that his wife left him something far more valuable than those jewels, she left him a son. And you see Thranduil facial reaction to this, like he realizes he has been cruel and unkind so much so, that it has pushed Legolas away from him. (if you haven't seen this scene, let me know and I will link a youtube link in this post) It makes his frantic search for Legolas after the battle more understandable. And then his little speech with Tauriel. After that we don't see him again :-/

I guess thats why I feel like Jackson's Thranduil was left with no closure, and from what I have read we have no hope for Jackson to be able to adapt any of the other works into films. A terrible shame.

[–] Otaku-sempai 7 years ago

I have seen the deleted scene you mention (and all of those that have been included in the video Appendices).

"Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved." - T. Isabella

[–] isabel_pink 7 years ago

What is known about Thranduil? Well, he's an elf from Doriath, and old elven kingdom. He and his father Oropher traveled from this kingdom to the east and merged with silvan elves. His father was named king at some point and they fought in the Last Alliance Battle, the one we have watched in FoTR at the beggining. Oropher died there at the Dead Marshes field. Thranduil became king of the woodland realm and lived there until de evil awoke again in the third age.

Now in the movies we had an interesting portrait, too bad it was lost in the middle of a poor plotline that was invented for him.

In the book it was said that elves and dwarves didn't get along because of a feud they had about some jewel, which could be the story of king Thingol from Doriath,that was murdered by dwarves because they all wanted the Silmaril, but that is another's books material and I think PJ and Co, don't have the rights to use that material.

In the book is never hinted that he and Legolas had any trouble at all. At least for what we have in LoTR where Legolas first appeared. In the book Legolas came to Rivendel to bring the news that Gollum has scaped (because Aragorn hunted him and took him to Mirkwood), so we know that he lived in Mirkwood by those days. We also have the part in the book when Galadriel sent him a message warining him about seagul cry. Galadriel said that Legolas had lived happily under the trees, so we can thnk that he never really left the wood for a very long time. Just after the end of the war of the ring he left his homelan and went to live in Ithilien, but he left Middle Earth soon after Aragorn passed away.

As for Thranduil it was never said if he travelled across the sea or he remainded more time in his realm.

So you can see that there were too many changes about these characters, and in my opinion they were not good, the changes were made to squeeze in the middle a silly and flat character like Tauriel.

[–] otter 7 years ago

The story in 'The Hobbit's about an old fight between elves and dwarves was actualities an early version of the fall of Dortiath and the death of Thingol. The silmaril was added later.

“Seventy-seven courses and a regicide, never a wedding like it!

[–] infracaninophile 7 years ago

In the book is never hinted that he and Legolas had any trouble at all. At least for what we have in LoTR where Legolas first appeared. In the book Legolas came to Rivendel to bring the news that Gollum has escaped (because Aragorn hunted him and took him to Mirkwood), so we know that he lived in Mirkwood by those days. We also have the part in the book when Galadriel sent him a message warning him about seagull cry. Galadriel said that Legolas had lived happily under the trees, so we can think that he never really left the wood for a very long time.

Yes, further to this, we don't know that Legolas was an only child, and there's no hint that he and his father are not on good terms. In the chapter in bFOTR "The Council of Elrond" it's stated that Legolas came to Rivendell as an emissary of his father, King Thranduil.

The book also strongly suggests Legolas seldom or never traveled outside Mirkwood or its immediate environs. When he is with the Company as they near Lothlorien, he states that there are "stories" he has heard about the lady in Lothlorien (Galadriel) but that he doesn't know whether they are true because there has been very little contact between the Lorien elves and Thranduil's people for centuries at least. Legolas in the book is very knowlegable about songs and poetry about the history of the elves and he's an innocent and joyous character (MUCH more likeable than the revolting Legolas of PJ's Hobbit films - sorry fans).

In the books of LOTR, Legolas never refers to himself (nor is he called by others) as a prince, and only once does he mention his father - he says something in ROTK that he would like to bring a party of elves to Ithilien to restore its beauty "if my elven lord allows." This is the only time he referes to his father, and it's in a rather formal way but does not give any indication of what their relationship is. His extended absences from Mirkwood suggest that he's not the "crown prince" but maybe a younger one. Tolkien never clarifies who his mother is/was, or what siblings he may have had.

[–] otter 7 years ago

I have always assumed that Legolas had older siblings for a very simple reason: When it became apparent that the return of Sauron, the end of the age, and the greatest crisis in thousands of years was about to happen... he did NOT go home!
A crown Prince or princess's duty is not only to defend the people as if they had no other defenders, but to always be ready to assume rule. This is particularly true in time of war, when the reigning monarch may die suddenly, and the second-in-command will need to instantly take charge with no lapses that could be taken advantage of by attacking enemies. Sending off to Rivendell or the hinterlands of Rohan to get the new king just wouldn't do.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that Lee Pace as Thranduil was the best thing about the "Hobbit" films. In a sea of bad acting and worse makeup, he nailed the immortal badassery!

“Seventy-seven courses and a regicide, never a wedding like it!

[–] lookthisway 7 years ago

Yes. Thranduil single handedly saved the movie for me, hence my profile pic, LOL.

Anyway, my own theory is that his wife died peacefully of childbirth compilation. And that Legolas is the only son.

I came to my theory based on the the fact that Bilbo whilst wandering around the place unseen never once made a note of the queen nor other existing prince/princess.

[–] Otaku-sempai 7 years ago

In the books of LOTR, Legolas never refers to himself (nor is he called by others) as a prince, and only once does he mention his father - he says something in ROTK that he would like to bring a party of elves to Ithilien to restore its beauty "if my elven lord allows." This is the only time he referes to his father, and it's in a rather formal way but does not give any indication of what their relationship is. His extended absences from Mirkwood suggest that he's not the "crown prince" but maybe a younger one. Tolkien never clarifies who his mother is/was, or what siblings he may have had.

Which is interesting, partially because the old (and out-of-print) Middle-earth Role Playing game (Iron Crown Enterprises) included material that suggested that Thranduil's queen was alive and well at least up to the years immediately following the Battle of Five Armies. She is even given a name, Lady Arhendhiril, and some background.

Also, the supplement The Heart of the Wild for the current The One Ring Roleplaying Game includes a note that, "when [Thranduil] is off hunting, he usually leaves one of his sons as seneschal," suggesting that the Elvenking has two or more children. No mention to date of his queen though.

"Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved." - T. Isabella

[–] isabel_pink 7 years ago

Interesting, since I think that the fact that nothing is mention about Thrnaduil's wife is because probably nothing happened to her. Just a thought though.

[–] Otaku-sempai 7 years ago

Or, when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit he might have thought of the Elvenking as unwed, especially as he had not yet given him a son. It might be a telling detail that when the Elvenking's throne room is described there is no mention of a second seat that would have been provided for his queen.

EDIT: As syntinen suggests below, the most logical place to insert a Queen of the Woodland Realm might have been at the Forest-feast. There is no particular reason why she would be present for the interrogations of Thorin or his followers or at the Battle of Five Armies.

"Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved." - T. Isabella

[–] syntinen 7 years ago

The whole Mirkwood episode in the book is certainly heavily influenced by the medieval romance Sir Orfeo, which Tolkien translated (https://allpoetry.com/Sir-Orfeo). In that poem the fairy king has a beautiful queen who sits beside him in his hall at dinner, but she plays no part in the action and never speaks (and clearly doesn't object to her husband making a habit of kidnapping any beautiful mortal women he sees). She's just a decorative prop, mentioned in passing. If Tolkien had given us any scene of the Elvenking feasting, either in the forest or in his hall, he might have mentioned a queen by the Elvenking's side; but as there is no such scene, there was no logical place for a queen to be mentioned, nor any children they might have had.

I do think it's a mistake to consider the Elvenking (or any of the book characters in The Hobbit ) as being necessarily 'the same' as their equivalents in the rest of Tolkien's work; the Hobbitverse is simply disjunctive with Middle-earth as he later wrote it. He was well aware of this and considered retconning the entire book to make it fit, but eventually gave up the plan, as it had been in print and wildly popular for decades.