Another unsolved mystery regarding the super elf, Tauriel..
How was she able to use it the athelas healing herb in combination with magic to heal Kili? I thought only Glandriel was powerful enough to do that? Tauriel was only a lowly Silvan elf after all..
Even though the poisoned arrow that wounded Kili was called a Morgul-arrow, it was not a Nazgûl weapon. It was just a poisoned arrow with a fancy name. Why shouldn't the healing properties of Kingsfoil combined with Wood-elf magic prove effective in treating it? And, Galadriel? It was Lord Elrond who healed Frodo; Lady Galadriel was nowhere near Rivendell at the time.
"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker
Yes. It was Elrond. I don't know why I typed Galadriel.
There is no way a common wood elf should have the magic to use the kingsfoil to heal a serious wound. Kili's wound was serious and even if it was not it is still strange that a lowly wood elf would possess such healing power.
And I thought Kingsfoil only works in the hands of a king? Also, how did she even get her hands on the herbs in the first place?
Athelas might work better when used by Aragorn but that is because of his knowledge of old lore, not because of any special power he possesses. And Tauriel was raised in the house of the Elvenking for 600 years and was a patrol-leader of the guard; it would not be strange for her to have herb-lore and some skill at healing.
The Dúnedain brought Athelas over with them from Númenor and the herb could be found anywhere where they had dwelt. It's not so strange that some might be found in the vicinity of Lake-town as it was once the largest trading port in the North. By the way, if you remember, Tauriel only had the kingsfoil because Bofur managed to find some that was being fed to some pigs.
"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker
My thinking is this. Aragon is of royal bloodline, and heir to the thorne. His hands are that of a king's hands so the kingsfoil responded to his touch. He was also raised by Elrond so I can see where he came to possess some magic and knowledge of healing.
Tauriel is common wood elf. The kingsfoil wouldn't have responded to her as would with Aragorn. It is strange to see that she somehow would acquire such powerful healing magic even if Thranduil would have taught it to her. Also, she is not a healer but a patrol leader so her knowledge of healing power nearly that of Elrond's seemed so far fetched.
My own thinking is that Kili's wound was not like Frodo's; it was serious, but Kili was not in danger of being transformed into a Wraith. That said, Tauriel's healing ability was probably stronger than it should have been--which should have been more like a Wood-elf's version of first aid.
"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker
Probably you're right about it, but what is annoying is the fact that it was Kili and not other dwarf. If it was Bofur or Oin, Tauriel's behaviour wouldn't look like a stalker going after his romantic interest, but a warrior wanting some revenge against orcs.
shareWell, of course she is not going to save Oin or Bofur. They are not tall and attractive. If it was one of them, they'd be long dead, lol.
shareOtaku is wrong: they specifically mention it was a morgul arrow. PJ purposely wanted you to think of Frodo being hit by a Morgul blade. That's why they didn't say "poisoned arrow".
And no, Tauriel would not know to use athelas, nor would she be able to cure Kili. Healing was an art reserved for those who were not warriors. Aragorn was considered amazing because he was both a great warrior and a great healer. Elrond was not a warrior, but a healer. Tauriel is a Mary Sue, nothing she did made sense.
Of course, if the scene was just about a poisoned arrow, and Tauriel happened to have some herbs to help cure the poison, that scene would be 100x better. However, PJ plagiarized himself the whole time he made the Hobbit, lifting entire scenes and events from LoTR and transplanting them into The Hobbit. Basically, he got lazy and just didn't care.
Otaku is wrong: they specifically mention it was a morgul arrow. PJ purposely wanted you to think of Frodo being hit by a Morgul blade. That's why they didn't say "poisoned arrow".The dart is called a 'morgul-arrow' in the film but there is nothing other than that name connecting it to the Morgul-knife of the Witch-king of Angmar. It isn't being wielded by one of the Nazgûl and nowhere is it stated that it came from one of them or from Sauron himself. You are making assumptions based on incomplete data.
And no, Tauriel would not know to use athelas, nor would she be able to cure Kili. Healing was an art reserved for those who were not warriors.Not true. Lord Elrond was a warrior and also a very skilled healer. The one does not preclude the other (although JRRT also wrote that killing had a negative impact on an Elf's ability to nurture and heal). The Númenóreans brought athelas to Middle-earth in the Second Age. It is reasonable to suppose that some knowledge of its properties and uses passed to the Elves, especially during the Last Alliance of Elves and Men (in which Thranduil and his father took part). And it would not be inappropriate for a patrol-captain of the Wood-elves to have some knowledge and training in healing--in fact, it would be quite sensible.
Except no, you're making assumptions not in evidence. I realize you liked these films, but a random silvan elf would not know about athelas, nor would a random dwarf be searching for them. If everyone in middle earth knew so much about aethelas, why did nobody even attempt to cultivate or store them? PJ was being lazy and hoped we wouldn't notice.
As for the morgul-blade, you're criticizing PJ perfectly for both his laziness and stupidity. In RoTR (the novel) Aragorn wonders if Faramir were pierced by a morgul arrow (he had not, but was merely exposed to too much of the black breath or whatever). PJ was so stupid, so lazy and ignorant, he uses a term he doesn't understand. Morgul arrows are exactly as you described them. So why was PJ so lazy and used the wrong term? Because he just didn't care about this piece of trash he was making. He said "Hmmm, here's another way to just copy and paste something from LoTR. No, it doesn't have to make sense, people will love it anyway." And he was right.
Occam's razor: simplest answer tends to be correct. That all these things not in evidence are true, or assume that PJ was just lazy and copy and pasted stuff from LoTR. The latter is the simplest answer. Otherwise, the entire realm of ME as we know it is turned upside down.
Except no, you're making assumptions not in evidence. I realize you liked these films, but a random silvan elf would not know about athelas, nor would a random dwarf be searching for them. If everyone in middle earth knew so much about aethelas, why did nobody even attempt to cultivate or store them? PJ was being lazy and hoped we wouldn't notice.
I'm not so sure about athelas. Remember, the herb-master in RoTK mentions they are used to clear up fouled air, meaning that normal people are able to use them in some way. I think Aragorn was the only one with the knowledge that such a thing would cure the problems caused by the Nazgul and the pernicious poisoning of the heart that comes during the dark times.
Of course, I could be completely wrong and maybe the touch of the King unlocked greater healing abilities in them.
But I will say that almost nothing about that scene in The Hobbit makes any sense. Nobody in all the stories or books ever mentions athelas except Aragorn. Even Elrond doesn't use them to heal, he has his own abilities and skills. Prince Imrahil has Elven blood, but never once does he ever mention athelas. Thranduil was a strange elf for a high elf, and was not very bright at the best of times. Silvan elves are less wise and skillful than their cousins. How would they know something they were never taught? Elrond isn't really an Elf, technically, he and Aragorn are kin. Why would elves abase themselves to learn from man when man is a lesser being. Even Legolas called Aragorn and Gimli children, as he is ancient and immortal.
PJ was just lazy, pressed "copy" and "paste" from LoTR and didn't care.
Thranduil was a strange elf for a high elf, and was not very bright at the best of times.
In the history of Middle Earth, Thranduil is not the brightest King. I think it was the last alliance or some other great battle, there was a strategy devised by the leaders. Thranduil, instead of waiting for the right time to attack, pulled a Leroy Jenkins. Yep, just charged in head-on, heedless of strategy or good thinking. His army (his subjects) were decimated. Something like only 10% of his army survived. So no, Thranduil thinks himself much brighter and wiser than he really is, and it has cost him dearly. Perhaps the event made him wiser.
However, the only reason he did not rely on the power of the one Ring is because everyone knew not to trust him with anything of any import. There were only 3 rings made for Elves, and everyone knew Thranduil should be kept away from all of them.
It was Thranduil's father Oropher who led his warriors in a doomed charge without waiting for the proper signal. Oropher had little trust or liking for the Noldor and refused to wait on their orders.
"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker
In the history of Middle Earth, Thranduil is not the brightest King. I think it was the last alliance or some other great battle, there was a strategy devised by the leaders. Thranduil, instead of waiting for the right time to attack, pulled a Leroy Jenkins. Yep, just charged in head-on, heedless of strategy or good thinking. His army (his subjects) were decimated. Something like only 10% of his army survived. So no, Thranduil thinks himself much brighter and wiser than he really is, and it has cost him dearly. Perhaps the event made him wiser.
Hell must be frozen, Otaku said something wrong! 😱
shareHell must be frozen, Otaku said something wrong!I've been wrong plenty of times, but not this one. That was the poster before me who confused Thranduil with his dad. You weren't paying attention.
Yep, the mistake was mine. I did not remember correctly.
shareYes. And he is one of my most favourite characters from the Hobbit too.
I believe his kingdom was the largest in all of Middle Earth too.
Of course, I could be completely wrong and maybe the touch of the King unlocked greater healing abilities in them.
That said, Tauriel's healing ability was probably stronger than it should have been--which should have been more like a Wood-elf's version of first aid.
Athelas might work better when used by Aragorn but that is because of his knowledge of old lore, not because of any special power he possesses.
No need to get angry, especially over a remark made almost three months ago. We can always make the traditional connection between the King and the Land. The King is the Land and the Land is the King. We are discussing (fictitious) myth, not history.
"Hell hath no fury like that of the uninvolved." - T. Isabella
Yep, we haven't seen any other elf doing that but Elrond.
Elves healed well, as we can see in Turin story, but I'm not sure if it would help a dwarf.
I found far fetched that from all the dwarves it was Kili, the nice and sexy dwarf she talked with.
Totally. The made up plot line is so annoyingly stupid.
We don't even see Legolas having that kind of healing power. But all of sudden, Tauriel was able to conveniently got a hold of the kingsfoil and through incredible magic healed the tall, handsome dwarf. I tell you, Tauriel can do no wrong, lol.
Oh yes, if we guess that it Thranduil that taught silvan elves to use healing powers, that he learned from his father that lived en Doriath and could have learned it from Melian, Why Legolas doesn't know how to use them?
^ Exactly. And of course since that whole stupid "Lowly Sivan Elf" thing came about, chances are that Thranduil would be the one to teach Tauriel is zero.
The only one besides Gandalf that I was hoping to see wielding magic was Thranduil. I thought it would be cool to see the king conjuring up some kind of spells. Alas, the only spell he conjured up was one to cover his disfigured face. By the way, the story line for his disfigurement was totally lame ass.
Maybe its a herb with natural healing powers? Tauriel doesn't have magic like Galadriel, no doubt about it. Also, remember this never happened in the books so Its likely that PJ made it up without a second thought.
Nothing like a nighttime stroll to give you ideas.
http://ow.ly/buqc302drQZ
Athelas don't need a spell to cure people. That's something that PJ came with when he involved Arwen in the healing of Frodo in FOTR. Also, the only mistery about athelas is that only the rangers new of their healing property.
Back to my old self.
I'm beginning to think that our good ol' PJ did a big mistake by introducing Tauriel.
Nothing like a nighttime stroll to give you ideas.
http://ow.ly/buqc302drQZ
He wanted to give a bigger role to Arwen in LOTR. He failed because it was leaked. Now, he used that to create the character of Tauriel that, in the end, is a mix of Jackson's failed Arwen and Jackson's Eowyn.
No originality on these movies.
Back to my old self.
Haha! Aragorn and Arwen didn't have enough screentime to steal the spot light. Thank god!
Their romance was intentionally exaggerated.
If anything, Tauriel was like a Disney princess so it was nice seeing her prance around.
Nothing like a nighttime stroll to give you ideas.
http://ow.ly/buqc302drQZ
She is no princess. That chick looked more manly than Legolas.
shareIf kicking a$$ defines her masculine side....then so be it. She truly is an extraordinary Disney Knight.
Nothing like a nighttime stroll to give you ideas.
http://ow.ly/buqc302drQZ
It was more of her manly jawline that defined her masculine side, and made her looked harsh. She looked like a female version of Clint Eastwood.
I thought elves were supposed to look ethereal.
With a stronger jaw line.
shareAh, that's the point. PJ shot Arwen fighting alongside Aragorn at Helm's Deep. But it was leacked and then he said that never happened.
Back to my old self.
It's hilarious how they included Arwen in Helm's Deep. I wonder what changed his mind...
Obviously he wanted changes in the main script after the leak.
She's like a funny easter egg in an odd place. lol
Still, PJ's mistakes didn't tarnish the film's quality and it still remains superior to Hobbit trilogy in every aspect. I suppose that's what matters most! :)
Nothing like a nighttime stroll to give you ideas.
http://ow.ly/buqc302drQZ
I wonder what changed his mind
Still, PJ's mistakes didn't tarnish the film's quality and it still remains superior to Hobbit trilogy in every aspect. I suppose that's what matters most!
It was leaked > fans were angry > he first said that it never happened (the shooting of those scenes).
Maybe because in the Hobbit he didn't care for being himself.
Back to my old self.
Athelas or Kingsfoil is only powerful when used by kings. In combination with magic, the healing property is said to enhanced further. Otherwise, it is just useless weed. Tauriel could have put lettuce on Kili and it would be just the same.
shareAthelas or Kingsfoil is only powerful when used by kings. In combination with magic, the healing property is said to enhanced further. Otherwise, it is just useless weed.Not according to J.R.R. Tolkien. It's just that it had been so long since there was a serious need for its most important properties that it was only being used by old folk as a headache remedy.
"When the black breath blows
And death’s shadow grows
And all lights pass,
Come athelas! Come athelas!
Life to the dying
In the king’s hand lying!"
(The Return of the King; “The Houses of Healing”.)
It is only powerful to heal when used by true kings.
Yes. People in this thread have been saying that Elrond used it to heal Frodo, but there's no suggestion of that in the books, which just refer in general terms to Elrond's great healing lore and skill, and presumably well-stocked medicinal stores. Elrond's not a king, so no reason why he should use athelas.
shareIf you read the whole chapter "In the Houses of Healing" it is plain that athelas is not just effective when used by royalty. Aragorn was knowledgeable in its proper use and therefore fulfilled the prophecy of the "hands of a healer".
"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker
True. But its effectiveness lessened greatly when used by commoners. When used by commoners, the kingsfoil is only good for curing headaches and easing stomach discomfort. But when used by a king (Aragorn is of royal bloodline) it can cure serious injuries even bring the dying back to life.
That's why the herb is called the kingsfoil.
I had in my head that elf stone helped him to use Athelas to cure Eowyn and others. But I have to read the chapter again.
shareI'm still not convinced that one had to be an heir of Elendil to bring out the full benefits of the plant, but it couldn't hurt. It was a sign of the decline of Gondor that so much of the lore concerning athelas had been forgotten or trivialized.
"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker
How do you figure that?
Sure, it's plain that the plant is mildly beneficial - pleasant-smelling, purifies air, improves mood, infusion helps headaches. So perhaps is mildly analgesic or relaxant. But although it is known to have these properties (i.e. is not simply unknown to Gondorian herbalists), they are not felt useful enough to keep in the standard pharmacopoeia.
As for Aragorn being 'knowledgeable in its proper use'; we know that old-fashioned Gondorians make an infusion of it. To make a herbal infusion, you bruise the herb and put it in hot water. What Aragorn does with the athelas leaves is: 'laid them on his hands and breathed on them, and then he crushed them, and straightway a living freshness filled the room, as if the air itself awoke and tingled, sparkling with joy. And then he cast the leaves into the bowls of steaming water that were brought to him, and at once all hearts were lightened.' The only thing he does that any old-fashioned Gondorian wouldn't do is breathe on them; otherwise he is just preparing a very basic infusion. And Tolkien is careful to point out that the old herb-wife Iorwerth, who knows exactly what the herb normally smells like, is amazed by the difference. Also that the herb smells different for each of the three patients he prepares it for.
You surely don't think that if Iorwerth, the herb-master or anybody else had breathed on the athelas after bruising and before infusing, that they could have brought about the same effect?
It just seems to me that the Herb-master's dismissal of athelas has more to do with Gondor's decline than anything else. Old lore is trivialized as romanticism and old-wives' tales until it is eventually lost. That isn't to say that athelas might not be more effective when administered by an heir of Elendil. If I am reversing myself a bit, so be it.
"If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker
Yes, athelas would be more powerful in the hands of Aragorn being of the royal lineage, but it is inferred in the texts, as Otaku has noted, that it is merely ignorance on the part of the common folk, and not lack of power that hinders them from using athelas to treat more potent ailments beyond headaches. Indeed, the royal lineage giving power to Aragorn more than likely merely applies to the Numenorean knowledge of just how to use the plant versus having any special power and merely applies in comparison to the knowledge of those of the "Middle Men" bloodlines, which would then be the cause of the "the hands of the king are the hands of a healer" belief (which would be accurate for this exact reason, because a Numenorean would know when and how to use this plant while the majority of Gondorians would not, since they had regressed to being more alike to the Rohirrim in that they valued knowledge and healing less while valuing valor and prowess in combat more).
Is it possible that Aragorn and those of the royal blood lines had special power? Sure, if only because it isn't explicitly stated otherwise. However, it isn't explicitly stated that he/they DO have some special magical power with the herb, so in the case of a tie I'll go with the more logical explanation, even in a fantasy work: the power of Aragorn in using the plant was knowing when and how. That is just what I believe, though. I can see both sides
Otaku, will you please shut the fack up?
shareOtaku, will you please shut the fack up?No. Though you might notice that with time to think about it, I've modified my view on this a bit.
I know this comes a bit late but it had to be said after reading some of the threads here: Never stop talking sense Otaku
share[deleted]
Tauriel couldn't possibly have the power she's not nearly as special as Galadriel or Elrond. Only a descendant of a king can use it.
Nothing like a nighttime stroll to give you ideas.
http://ow.ly/buqc302drQZ
Only a descendant of a king can use it.I call bovine turds on that statement.
LOL! Its called Kingsfoil for a reason and Tauriel was a ...well...a lowly silvan elf. Did she find a loophole?
Nothing like a nighttime stroll to give you ideas.
http://ow.ly/buqc302drQZ
As far as I remember, dunedains and elves new of the curative properties of athelas.
Back to my old self.
Fan-edits solve all such problems by removing all that crap that makes no sense. Dont watch these movies, watch what the fans did: that is a work of love, unlike this mess of a trilogy.
Will save some time too.
I thought I read somewhere that the athelas is basil?
shareIt has been suggested, largely because the name of basil derives from the Greek basileus, 'king' and the strong scent of its leaves.But the strikes against its being basil are several:
1. No variety of basil is hardy enough to grow wild in Northern Europe, whereas athelas does (Aragorn finds some just south of Weathertop).
2. Aragorn keeps some of the leaves he picked there in his pouch, and months later gets them out to treat a cut on Sam's head: they are 'dry' and 'withered' but still fairly potent when crushed and infused in not water. But basil is too far too juicy to 'wither' and dry when kept in a pouch; it rots. To dry basil you need to spread it out in sunlight, or put it in low oven: and even then it doesn't 'wither', but crumbles.
3. If athelas had been any variety of basil, even if the Gondorians had forgotten its healing qualities the place to look for it would be in kitchens and kitchen gardens, and possibly perfumiers. Wherever basil grows it is used as a flavouring, and very often in scents as well.
Okay. Thanks for the information.
It's perfectly possible that it was basil, its name and properties, that gave Tolkien the idea of a 'king's leaf' (foil is a Middle English word for 'leaf') that was powerfully aromatic when crushed. But that athelas is the same plant as real-life basil: no, I really can't buy that.
shareWell, yes. It was probably inspired by basil. Basil comes from the Greek word basilias/vasilias/vasileus which means King. The herb in Greek is called vasilikos/basilikos, which means "that which is related to a King". No wonder athelas works miraculously in the hands of a King.
Don't forget that athelas is also called kingsfoil.
Btw, here's where I first got that info: http://middleearthnews.com/2014/02/18/is-athelas-based-on-real-life-plant/
So, Tauriel CANNOT use it to cure a wound, especially not from a morgul weapon and especially not such a serious one, so incredibly fast. Kili was on the brink of death from that wound. He couldn't even walk properly and he had a high fever which caused him to be delirious. How a morgul weapon was even there is a whole 'nother story :P I know they wanted to make her a princess like Arwen, but what can you do? You're not one, Tauriclown, no matter how much you want it Also, athelas just doesn't grow there and there's a reason behind this, as everything in Tolkien. PJ and co. just chose to ignore everything and write their own Mary Sue fanfiction, because "dragon sickness" aka hollywood money.
^^^ True. All true.
shareI've been thinking about Athelas, I think it wasn't only this, but it had to do with Aragorn green stone, Elessar. If we recall other writings, this stone had healing powers. So, if we think about that it wouldn't be only athelas, but the elf stone also that people would need to cure somebody.
In conclusion, Tauriel just could'nt use athelas to cure Kili. I think they should thought of something else.
Or maybe just never insert her in the story and let Kili be a normal Dwarf and not a boyband hot Man. :P
shareThe way I see it, it is irrelevant whether it makes sense or not because it's a mere consequence of a larger problem that doesn't make sense: an Elf falling in love with a Dwarf.
share