MovieChat Forums > The Gatekeepers (2013) Discussion > Stop the terrorist nation of Israel

Stop the terrorist nation of Israel


They butcher thousands of innocent people in their supposed war on terror. They are the ones creating it.

Stop all US support of this terrorist nation.

reply

Yes, but we must find a way to help the psychopaths. Somehow they need to see how infinitely beautiful their true selves are. We all derive from pure love. Embrace it, it's beautiful. You are it. Thanks.

reply

Yeah.. it's all a big fat lie !

reply

Yes, because we all know the muslims are pure as the driven snow and never the source of any problems, right?
:rolleyes:

reply

Way to generalize...you do realize Muslims come from every race and nation right? And you do realize that not all Palestinians are actually Muslim?
Therefore I don't get the point of your post at all, especially in regards to the subject at hand.

reply

I thought the documentary was as even handed as you would expect and I was actually surprised and pleased that the plot by some extreme Zionists to blow up the Dome of the Rock was at least mentioned. Its just a shame it seems to be that in Israel there does seem to be some debate about what the larger implications of an apartheid state are.

No political figure in the United States could be caught dead criticizing the domestic policy of Israel in any way.

reply

"They butcher thousands of innocent people"



You mean Syria, right ?

^ a b c d "UN says more than 60,000 dead in Syrian civil war". Associated Press. 2 January 2013. Retrieved 2 January 2013.

reply

No, that's a civil war.

You could also say by your logic that "That's America right?". It's a foolish and idiot argument to even try to make.

Try learning the actual facts about the terrorist nation of Israel who also attacked and sunk and US ship.

http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/terrorists.phtml

reply

The phrase butcher or terrorist is not relevant to the only democratic nation in Middle East. IF YOU DO CARE GO WORRY ABOUT 60000 MUSLIMS BEING MURDERED IN SYRIA WITH HELP AND FINANCE OF OTHER MUSLIM NATION " ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN" NOW WHO SOUNDS OBTUSE HERE? YOU

reply

I'm not obtuse. I'm rational and realistic. I also know these countries have internal problems... essentially civil war.

Am I supposed to excuse the terrorist actions of Israel just because a country like Syria is at civil war. Neither should be ignored, but my OP wasn't about that.. it was about this movie.

Make about movie about Syrian internal terror and I'll comment on that too.

Thank you and have a nice day!

reply

I just have two questions for you:

1. I thought that land had no racial or ethnic character. Isn't "Muslim" land, or "Arab land", the same thing as "White man's land" (Everyone knows that the proposed state of Palestine will be Judenrein) ?

2. How come you and your ilk never say "Destroy Syria" as you say "Destroy Israel" ? You want to change the government of Syria not destroy it. You wanted to change the government of Egypt, not destroy it, but for tiny but successful Israel, you reserve "special action", ie its destruction. Why ?

The Gatekeepers is another example I believe of the "Court Jew", the Jew that has to be ashamed of himself and his success, and always engaging in a mea culpa.

The truth is that any other nation in Israel's circumstances would have reacted far more brutally and far more selfishly. And every other nation in Israel's circumstances has, especially and including Islamic nations.

60 thousand Syrians massacred by an unelected lunatic, mostly civilians, is just another ho hum day. Watch the crocodile tears should five Palestinians die attempting to commit a terrorist act.

The entire Arab world is one tiny invention away from total destruction. It's not a weapon that will destroy them, it is the day the world quits its petroleum addiction. Virtually every successful Arab economy is so oil dependent that such an invention, or change will cause every one of their economies to come crashing down much worse than the crash experienced by Holland when their oil economy ran out of oil in the late 50's / early 60's.

reply

Well written.

"Insert famous quote from movie here" -- by Famous Movie Actor

reply

How come you and your ilk never say "Destroy Syria" as you say "Destroy Israel"


He didn't. Look at the subject line.

It's interesting to see these arguments. Always I see the same tactics.

If somebody says something negative about the Israeli government, the next thing you can expect to see is somebody saying "well, those Muslims over there are worse". Almost without exception.

Leave the nations alone to fend for themselves. It will be bloody as it sorts itself out, but at least the US won't have blood on their hands taking sides.

Without US support many of these conflicts would never have existed, and in fact, many regimes wouldn't ever have existed or long ago collapsed. Israel's policies only exist because of US "aid", or at least that's my belief. Basically, they receive a tremendous amount of money, which is leading to misallocation of resources - namely expansion.

The United States should not be involved in any of this.

reply

> If somebody says something negative about the Israeli government, the next thing
> you can expect to see is somebody saying "well, those Muslims over there are worse".
> Almost without exception.

Let's say that is true ... what about it?
Are you saying just because it is predictable that it is not true, or does not
deserve analysis or to be disbelieved?

The US should be involved in this, as should be the whole rest of the world, because
I do not think you either understand or disagree with the totalitarian mindset of
expansionism of the Muslim religion, it is incompatible with a free society,
freedom of thought, expression, etc.

If radical Islam is able to rollover Israel they will surely work on the rest of the
world, ... to which you answer is what ... that the West does it worse?????

reply

The US should be involved in this, as should be the whole rest of the world,


Why?

Look at what involvement has done in the case of Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya.

US involvement in Iran destroyed their democracy in 1953 with Operation Ajax.
US involvement in Iraq in 1980 led to a war with Iran and Iraq which killed somewhere around 1 million people and impoverished both nations.
US involvement in Afghanistan in the late 1980s led to a civil war and the ascension of the Taleban into power.
Libya today is a total disaster because of what was recently done. They are still in civil war.

When has involvement led to anything good? I can't think of an example since the 1950s, and that was a result of WWII.

Zionism is to Jewish people as the KKK is to white anglo saxon protestants. Each movement has identical goals. Why should the US be involved with that?

I'm not some liberal moron that thinks the US should stop this, they can't - without going to war. The US should simply not be involved.

reply

Virtually everything you said is false.

Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya are still up in the air. There is voting and there is beginning of a secular society. Relative to what was there before why do you see that as an improvement. Look at Egypt, it appeared that there was no improvement there, but the military is marginalizing the Islamic Brotherhood ... improvement. These are habit built into these cultures for hundreds of years. Things they got used to and think they need, like beating up and abusing women and keeping them ignorant. How do you think that is going to change in a year?

What the US did in Iran and in South America I strongly oppose and opposed at time ... well, at least with the Contras. But look, there is a flowering of native people in governments in South America ... it is going in the right direction. The US makes mistake and even has corruption in it. We should be arguing for more transparency and standards in what we do, and try to root our corruption. A little over a 100 years ago it was way worse. American soldiers in the Spanish American war were doing in the Philippines what we demonized the Japanese for doing to drive us into WWII.

You so not see the direct benefits of international stabiity and trade that all this messed up stuff led to. There is a benefit there. It's hard to justify it based on what was done to bring it about, but the past is past and we cannot do anything about it. We need to look to the future. The fact that you are making these complaints is one good thing, that would not have happened 100 years ago.

History moves slow. Sadly in my lifetime I think things have ever gone backwards and they are nothing like I thought they would be in the 2000's when I was born in the 1900's.

You have to realize things change, but I agree with you that change is slow and unsteady.

But calling the Zionists a KKK analog is untrue. There was never institutionalized slavery, murder and genocide. When you want to make such judgement on nuanced things you surely cannot make this claim.

The US should be involved in Israel because Israel has goals and culture more like us, and that Islam is a major problem with everyone. It is a mental and spiritual cage that keeps hundreds of millions of people trapped and used to attack the non-Islamic world. Not all Muslims of course.

Funny that you imply it is the Liberals that think the US should stop this ... because that is the Conservative position. I am extremely Liberal and I argue the Israel issue all the time with Liberals who I think are insane on their positions on this issue. It's like arguing that Nazi Germany should have been left alone based on Liberals positions of autonomy, even though their society was despotic and existential danger to everything on the planet.

Drawing a line in the ground and backing Islam down to where it does not control whole countries and is not a threat to others is worth doing, if it takes 100 years. Used to be in the past you just prevailed militarily and killed everyone ... much easier than trying to do cultural change, but cultural change has been done before, with post-war Germany and Japan. This is what needs to be done with the Islamic countries for them to be peaceful neighbors and traders in the world.

reply

Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya are still up in the air.


Yes, and they will remain "up in the air" for along as the United States keeps its current foreign policy.

I don't feel like giving you history lesson.I done that too many times, and it will just be ignored anyhow. All you need to do is ask people that live in those nations. That's all you have to do. You're on the Intenet, spend a few hours and seek them out, and ask. There's all this stupid speculation as to whether intervention is good or bad when it's trivial just to ask. The vast majority of people that live with the consequences would overwhelmingly say no.

Americans had the audacity in 2001 to ask "duh, why do day h8 us?" and the equally stupid answer which a shocking majority believed was "duh, dey h8 us 4 R Freedumb". Well, if you want to believe that, I can't prevent you.

You can look up April Glaspie, you can do some research on Zbigniew Brzezinski's involvement in Afghanistan in the late 1980s. You can find out about the Carter Doctrine and Regan Corollary. You might want to do some research on Truman and why he supported UN Resolution 181 and why Atlee didn't support it. You might want to look up UN Resolution 194, and the murder of Count Bernadotte, and who ordered the murder. You can look into the Sa'ud Family and why they are in power, and what Saudis think of them.

But you won't. You'd prefer to believe a bunch of BS from a government that lied the United States into a war over weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist.

Drawing a line in the ground and backing Islam down to where it does not control whole countries and is not a threat to others is worth doing


The US has never done this. Hussein was a secular ruler, and yes, he was a tyrant. Gaddafi was a secular ruler, and he was a tyrant too. The Sa'ud Family are not secular rulers, and the Taleban certainly were not, even when they were the Mujahideen.

You still believe the US government when it makes these claims about their intentions. The US government has been lying to it's dumb population for 50 years about what it's intentions there are. Why do you still believe they are credible after Tenet got the Presidential Medal of Freedom after he resigned from heading up the CIA taking all the blame for the "mistaken intelligence" about weapons of mass destruction?

You're just going to remain ignorant but not everybody is this ignorant.

You think what I said is false. The truth is that the US doesn't have good intentions for the middle east, it never has. I don't know what their intentions are, but a 60 year track record of inciting religious nutcases, overthrowing democracies there, and subverting secular governments makes it obvious to me that what they claim to be doing isn't what they are doing. It should be obvious to you by now as well.

It's going to be this way your entire life, or until the US is forced to change foreign policy.

reply

I already know far more than you about this. I've read the history of the US from the normal sources, and then from Howard Zinn, John Perkins, and the latest book I am reading right now Oliver Stone's "Untold HIstory Of The United States" so don't give me this superiority BS. A country never has good intentions ... well, rarely anyway, and that includes about all of them. Countries and people all fall of the lower common denominator. If it was not the US you are complaining about it would Russia, or China.

The US will change its foreign policy, it already has. As I mentioned at the turn of the last century Americans were shooting Phillippinos just like we dehumanized the Japanese for doing.

So you want to name-call, you are ignorant and stupid as well, not in your complaints but in thinking things could be any different, or would be if the US was not doing all this stuff. Look at the European empires, the US is far better than they were. The US is far more powerful than any other empire has every been before, and it is less violent, you just refuse to see it, think it or admit it.

I just have such contempt for whiny self-righteous jerks like you who do not even know what they are unable to really process the information they have, they just follow whoever told them and never think for themselves.

reply

I already know far more than you about this. I've read the history of the US from the normal sources, and then from Howard Zinn, John Perkins, and the latest book I am reading right now Oliver Stone's "Untold HIstory Of The United States" so don't give me this superiority BS.


Oh, than you can tell me all about Norman Finkelstein then.

Hey, who are the two prime ministers of Israel who were known to be murderers and terrorists? I'm sure you know who they are, you're educated about it right?

What's the Ottoman Land Act of 1858, and how does it tie in to all this?

What was acknowledged as the worst terrorist incident in the 20th century?

The US will change its foreign policy, it already has. As I mentioned at the turn of the last century Americans were shooting Phillippinos just like we dehumanized the Japanese for doing.


Well, the US owns the Philippines now, doesn't it? What? Is the US going to turn the entire Middle East into a US protectorate now? Today, we blow up wedding parties in Afghanistan, and murder US citizens that the US government has unilaterally declared terrorists, along with their 16 year old son - two weeks later.

So you want to name-call, you are ignorant and stupid as well, not in your complaints but in thinking things could be any different,


They have been different before! The United States was widely respected and emulated in the Middle East before 1950. The same was true for Asia. How can you not know this?

I just have such contempt for whiny self-righteous jerks


Self righteous?

You're the one that thinks we have to be involved with the middle east constantly despite a 60 year record of total failure. But is it failure? What are the goals? Nobody really knows. You do know that once it was clear there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, the war continued anyhow. What was the mission? What's the mission in Afghanistan?

The United States created radical Islam as a direct consequence to Operation Ajax. Before then, there was no Iranian Revolution, or Islamic Revolution, or Hezbollah.

I really don't feel like giving you a history lesson and that's what I would have to do. You'll ignore it anyhow. Reading a bunch of books to support your viewpoint, isn't an education.

An education is talking to bunch of people in these nations and asking them what they think. They have lots to say, and they have the history to back it up so you can go ahead an independently verify it. At the very least is reading contrary viewpoints and then going and researching the claims made. It's so easy to do today. Heck, in 5 minutes I can confirm the Lehi offered to align itself with Nazi Germany in 1940. That took a week to do just 20 years ago. I remember when people were claiming that a Congressional Investigation was made into the USS Liberty incident - that claim isn't made any more. Got to love the Internet.

You won't use the internet but if your really want to understand what is going on you need to talk to people who live with the consequences of what has been done. This is trivial to do, and you won't do it.

So what point is there in talking to you? Your mind is set in stone. People believe what they want to believe. There's no reasoning with you and it doesn't matter anyhow, even if I could convince you, there's at least another 100 million people in the US I'd have to convince, and they care either way.

reply

> Oh, than you can tell me all about Norman Finkelstein then.

An idiot.

You think I'm gonna take a test for you ... LOL! You are group-thinker, I bet you love tests.

60 years of total failure in the Middle East eh? Well, there is Israel, that is an improvement for Jews who did not want to live under Islamic oppression. Iran is beginning to have elections. Afghanistan is educating women. Take your blinder off pal.

> There's no reasoning with you and it doesn't matter anyhow, even if I could convince you, there's at least another 100 million people in the US I'd have to convince, and they care either way.

OH, yes, and now you know what the world is like, the whole of it. Only here in America and the West we do have a tradition of progress. Who would you rather see as the largest hegemon ... Russia, China, an Islamic Caliphate ... it really doesn't matter. The rest of the world does not want any leadership from problem places, even though it knows how bad the US has been. Britain is beloved despite a horrible history of oppression. That's the standard ... the challenge here is to figure out ways to improve that.

reply

You think I'm gonna take a test for you ... LOL! You are group-thinker, I bet you love tests.


No, I don't think you will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29#Contact_with_Nazi_German y
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement

That's how Israel was founded. Not the history you were taught, is it?

But I bet you knew that the Grand Mufti visited Nazi Germany. Omitted is what pre-Israeli Zionists were doing at the same time. An Israeli prime minister was part of that.

You don't know who it was, and you never will. You don't have the curiosity to find out.

60 years of total failure in the Middle East eh? Well, there is Israel, that is an improvement for Jews who did not want to live under Islamic oppression


They didn't live under Islamic oppression.

When the Inquisition was busy wiping out the Jews of Europe, and the Holocaust was ragin, the Middle East was the safe haven.

Israel has ended that. There was never anything like the animosity between Jews and Christians in the Middle East, until a bunch of Jewish bigots decided to create a country in what was then the Palestinian Mandate in the early 1900s proclaiming they intended to remove the indigenous population.

Gee, who would have a problem with that, other than the indigenous population and the nations that were forced to absorb all the refugees? This isn't rocket science, but deprogramming you is.

If the USSR decided to take over Canada, and millions of Canadians started to flow into the US illegally - think Americans would have a problem with that?

It's weird you can't understand why Israel is an issue. It's been at war for it's entire existence, and it will remain at war for it's entire existence. In any time over the last 65 years, it could have unilaterally declared it's borders, but it never will, because it intends to take over all of the West Bank. They could do it today, but they won't.

And this will continue until it no longer can. There's no rational people involved in this and it's irrational for the United States to be involved with it.

Most people's heads are filled with propaganda and half truths. They don't know even a tenth of the history, but they think they understand it all. I might as well be trying to explain to a Russian in 1940 that Pravda didn't mean truth. It's a pointless exercise.

reply

The Palestinians were allied with Hitler you dolt, read about Haj Amin Al Hussayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.
Palestinians ran pograms against Jewish settlements for decades if not centuries, as well as oppressing Jews and other religious minorities. Don't bother me with your nonsense, Islam will end up on the ash heap of history. Israel is not even at war, it is just defending itself against a culture of oppression, oppression that maims its own people as well.

reply

The Palestinians were allied with Hitler you dolt, read about Haj Amin Al Hussayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.


And? And you just ignore that Yitzhak Shamir was a leader of a group that did the same exact thing.

Lehi has a document that is on record making the offer to side with Nazi Germany dated in 1940. Their offer was to have terrorist cells in all through Europe disrupt Allied forces, provided that Germany:

1) facilitated the migration of Jewish people through force if necessary to what was then the Palestinian Mandate.
2) recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

Here's the conditions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29#Contact_with_Nazi_German y

Here's the letter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SternGang-Doc-Nazi-Collaboration.jpg

So easy to find out many interesting things today, omitted from "educational" books - isn't it? And it's all referenced.

reply

You misinterpret your facts ... the Jews thought Hitler would be happy to get rid of the Jews in Germany by sending them to the Middle East, but it was critical to Hitler to murder them.

There is no comparison between the relationships of your so-called Jewish terrorists groups and the Islamic Terrorist groups. Because there is a small group that may or may not be able to deliver on that negotiation does not imply what you suggest. You are merely trying at any cost to distort logic and support an apologetic and equivalence mindset for radical Islam. It does not wash. The Jewish terrorist groups are gone, they got independence and though there may be hardline Zionists they are a minority. The terrorist streak in Islam is front and center daily across 1/3 of the globe.

By the way, I'm sorry I used the word dolt, it was impolite, but it seems to me that you basic motivation really comes from a very negative place that you will not dislodge from .

reply

You misinterpret your facts ... the Jews thought Hitler would be happy to get rid of the Jews in Germany by sending them to the Middle East, but it was critical to Hitler to murder them.


My point is that the future leaders of Israel didn't at all mind having Jewish people in all of Europe uprooted by force by the Axis powers - so long as those people ended up in the British Mandate of Palestine to help them build a new state.

There is no comparison between the relationships of your so-called Jewish terrorists groups and the Islamic Terrorist groups.


I'd agree with that. The Islamic terrorist groups never pulled anything similar to the Lavon Affair, they don't have nuclear weapons in Dimona like Israel does, all the Islamic nations that do have nuclear power or weaponry are under the IAEA unlike Israel, and the Islamic terrorist cells kill less than 1/10th the number of Israeli children, than Israeli kills Palestinian children.

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/

Every death, name, date, and circumstance of the death is recorded.

It wasn't Islamic terrorists that murdered Count Bernadotte to prevent a peace deal, it wasn't Islamic terrorists that murdered Yitzhak Rabin, to scuttle any possibility of a peace deal, again.

Islamic terrorists don't put settlements in the middle of Israeli territory and call it legal, or demand 3 billion dollars a year in aid from the United States. They didn't threaten the Sampson Option like Golda Meir did in 1973 unless they received US assistance in the Yom Kippur War.

All they want is the United States out of their business. Why not? What good has it done for the US to be in their business? 9/11? 3 wars in the Middle East that have done nothing other than cost money. Sure - leave. Israel isn't the problem of the United States - it's Israel's problem.

Today 2 Israeli spies sit in US prison today. One of them is venerated as some sort of hero, although he was nothing but a scumbag spy who attempted to farm out information to anybody that would buy it, including the USSR. Mordechai Vanunu sat in prison for 18 years after being kidnapped from Rome for exposing what Israel accused Iran of doing - 11 of them in solitary confinement.

Israel is just the embodiment of hypocrisy. They think, that because their great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandparent, MIGHT have lived in the area 2000 years ago, it belongs to them, exclusively. They actually believe because the Roman Empire - an empire with a dead language kicked them out in 70 AD that the Muslims stole the land. They think that if they believe the land belongs to them exclusively, the Palestinians will simply accept this.

They're just insane. Why deal with that sort of insanity? They'll just continue to get more and more and more insane until they destroy themselves.

I think the only responsibility the US has is to develop anti-ballistic technology to nullify Dimona, and forget about the area.

reply

> My point is that the future leaders of Israel didn't at all mind having Jewish people in all of Europe uprooted by force by the Axis powers

Look ... you seen to have a brick wall between you and seeing that these people at that time did not have much choice. You seem to be unthinkingly applying your modern mindset to a situation that is not modern. Any society is always going to have its faction with drastic solutions. Of course, you just home in on the microscopic view of what is going on and are completely ignoring the reality of what was going on. Do you think they could not see what Hilter's intent was, that he was growing undismissble existential threat and had written very precisely about his intentions.

reply

Look ... you seen to have a brick wall between you and seeing that these people at that time did not have much choice.


Sure they did, they could have allied themselves with the Allies, instead of Nazi Germany.

Those psychopaths that founded Israel were only interested in one thing, getting enough people to move there to get a demographic majority to create a Jewish state. That's all they freaking cared about. They didn't care about the "Jewish people". They cared about power. They were happy to see the Jewish population in Europe expelled. Do you think they felt any differently about the Jewish population in the Middle East? Some people have accused Israel of staging false flag attacks in various Middle Eastern countries to encourage migration of Jews out of them. I discount this, simply because it's not well enough documented, although some people have come forward claiming to be a part of it, but what credibility do they have?

And you ask about the choices that Israelis have today - and what choice do the Palestinians have? You tell me. Israel placed themselves in this position thorough 65 years of Zionism which is nationalism for Jewish people and rule by Jewish people. It's disenfranchisement of non Jewish people, simply put. It's institutionalized bigotry.

Settlement building is expanding now. It will continue to expand, and continue, and continue, and more will be created in time. All the Palestinians that could leave, did leave. They are a historically persecuted group, even when the Ottoman Empire still existed. You will pretend there was no such concept as the Palestinians. Whatever you call them, they are an ethnic minority and have been for centuries.

What do you expect the Palestinians to do? Israel doesn't care. They have the military strength, and they have US financial backing. All they will do is continue to expand, relentlessly until either the US stops funding them or can no longer fund them. The best the Palestinians can do is fire rockets which have a lower probability of killing an Israeli than a lightning strike does. This is the big threat that Palestinians have over the Israelis. All it works out to be is carte blanche for the Israelis to do whatever they want whenever they want using that excuse.


Considering the United States has a 16.7 trillion dollar debt, which on average grows at 9.4% a year and has since 1971, with a tax revenue of below 15% of that to support it, and no longer can force OPEC to sell oil exclusively in dollars like it could up until 2000 - it's a good bet what stops this is when the US can no longer fund it.

Then what happens?

Israel can end this by unilaterally declaring their borders and abandoning the settlements, but they won't. When finally this breaks down, and it will in time, Israel is going to go crazy if they are still like they are now. If they do, the result won't just be a collapse of Israel. If they employ the Sampson Option as they have threatened, every Jewish person in this world is going to be exterminated in retaliation.

So, you crazy morons can try to get people to see reason now and find a settlement, or you can watch a modern day genocide unfold eventually.

reply

> Sure they did, they could have allied themselves with the Allies

And we know how much the Allies wanted to help the Jews by the ship that
wandered all the oceans with some Jews that wanted to settle somewhere,
anywhere.

Listen, I think I've set up enough of an arc for a reasonable person who want
to find out and determine the truth to do that. You can continue to ramble,
and I'm sure you will because all your side of this argue has, like the Repubicans,
is repetition, repetition, repetition. Your strategy is to ignore the facts, to
make up your own facts and just pretend they are true.

The thing is the person who gives a few minutes to this with an open mind sees
that your facts and ideas contradict each other, but can also see that you are
biased and pro-Islamic in your intent, so if they agree with you facts don't matter.
If they disagree, well, you don't care about facts, so you just keep wasting time.

I don't have that much to waste.

reply

And we know how much the Allies wanted to help the Jews by the ship that wandered all the oceans with some Jews that wanted to settle somewhere, anywhere.


Oh, but the Axis powers were much better. Remember, that's who Yitzhak Shamir thought was as DANDY idea to ally with. After all, the Axis powers might force all European Jewry out of all of Europe. That was just awesome, from his point of view. Much better than the Allies who simply wanted to stop Germany.

And isn't it a bit hypocritical of you to bring this up? It's kind of like the Somali refugees of today, that were recently expelled from Israel - probably to face death in their country. That's not irony, it's simply ongoing hypocrisy. Israel does this today, yet you condemn the Allies for not taking in huge influxes of another ethnic and religious group - yet this is precisely what Israel does today.


Poland saved the greatest number of Jews in all of the occupied countries during WWII. Today, they are remembered as anti-Semites because the Nazis build Auschwitz there which is really Birkenau. The penalty for protecting a Jew in Poland was death. 2 million Christian Poles were exterminated. Still - those evil Poles! Where their Holocaust museum? They were the 2nd most persecuted group, and there was a written order to first enslave them, then exterminate them all. That was the plan of the 3rd Reich, still, they were Nazi sympathizers, even though their nation never co-operated with the Nazis and had an underground government during the entire time they were under occupation.

Lord Balfour ran the Red Cross and was recognized for saving 10's if not 100's of thousands of Jews from the concentration camps during WWII. What was his reward? Assassination at the hands of the future Prime Minister of Israel.

This is how Zionists remember everybody - as dirt. They commit the same crimes that they condemn others for, and they forget anything that was done to help. No, the holocaust is only about them, and nobody else. Forget the Gypsies, the homosexuals, the atheists, the Poles...

Listen, I think I've set up enough of an arc for a reasonable person who want to find out and determine the truth to do that. You can continue to ramble,


Hahaha.

I don't think you're a reasonable person. Certainly not a very educated one.

A reasonable person would see the Palestinians in a no solution situation. You're not reasonable at all.

If you think there is a solution, present one. You tell me what the Palestinians have to do. I saw what was offered at the Camp David Accords back in 2001 when Le Monde published it. It took over 8 years for the United States to contradict it, when it slowly became public. Gee, why didn't Arafat accept a deal that would cut up Palestine in 4 separate parts, littered with Israeli roads connecting all the settlements?

But the offer was false, they say, now, 8 years after the accords. Funny how things only came out public after Arafat was dead.

Oh, and the Palestinian papers - all lies, supposedly. Here's Tzipi Livni the "far left" of Israel offering to make land swaps, as long as they decreased or even eliminated their non Jewish demographic..

I don't really need an education on this subject. I need a stomach pump when I realize how deplorably ignorant people still are on this entire situation.

You laughable say that you're leading me to sense? You're brainwashed and programmed. There's ample opportunity to understand the actual history, but why would you do that? People get upset when they realize they have been deceived their entire lives - why risk that?

reply

>> Israel is just the embodiment of hypocrisy. They think, that because their great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandparent, MIGHT have lived in the area 2000 years ago, it belongs to them, exclusively

You have it exactly backwards, it is the Muslims that think that any land that the "caliphate" once owned must be returned to Islam ... and that is exclusive. Saudi Arabia forbids non-Muslims in the country, especially Jews. Not only that but they think the government has the right to kill people who convert away from Islam. You well know all the injustices Islam commits against non-Muslims. Non-Muslims, women and gays are oppressed.

reply

You have it exactly backwards, it is the Muslims that think that any land that the "caliphate" once owned must be returned to Islam ... and that is exclusive.


All the Muslims of the British Mandate of Palestine wanted before 1948 was to not have the land divided and have autonomy from the British.

They already accepted that there was massive Jewish immigration. It was when UN Resolution 181 was passed, without consulting the majority which at the time were Muslims, that there was immediately civil war. Atlee predicted this, and that's why England abstained from voting for UN Resolution 181.

Atlee was of course correct, within 2 years there were 470,000 Arab refugees as a result (that's Israel's estimate) and there was a tremendous land grab. Before this happened, Count Bernadotte was sent precisely because of his reputation and work with Jewish concentration camp victims. He was murdered by order of a triumvirate, of which Yitzhak Shamir was one to prevent any solution.

Saudi Arabia forbids non-Muslims in the country, especially Jews. Not only that but they think the government has the right to kill people who convert away from Islam.


Yet, they are the United States bestest friends and you have been arguing that the United States should intervene on their behalf this entire time.

This kind of goes back to my opinion that the United States should not be interfering at all in the Middle East and ought to entirely withdraw from it. Gee, why should I think that? Oh, is it because the US supported Hussein in a desperate attempt to recapture Iran after the traitorous Shah was thrown out of power for becoming a puppet of the US and the British in exchange for power provided that he delivered both nations oil on their terms? Or maybe it's because they used to send Hosni Mubarak a billion dollars a year which he hoarded in "aid" in order to keep himself in power, despite the fact that the Egyptians despised him?

That's US foreign policy. Been this way since at least 1953 or so - probably longer, but poor Mohammad Mosaddegh didn't know. Heck, that sucker came to the United States and visited the liberty bell. He was remarked to have said of the United States "it is because we share with you a love of liberty and because we have been less fortunate than you in wresting our prized freedom from that country which in 1776 had to yield it to you."

What a dope. What a sucker. He believed that the people in power in the United States at the time, actually believed in what the Constitution said. What a moron.

Two years later, the US staged bombings of markets and paid off thugs to claim to be communists and Mosaddegh supporters in order to oust him from power to prevent him from nationalizing oil interests from the British - even though the British at the time were nationalizing their oil own interests - which is where BP came from... The US then took 40% stake in the profits, England with the other 40% stake, and 20% went around to different European countries. In order to prevent a counter revolution, the CIA helped setup SAVAK, which brutally suppressed any attempt to move back to democratic rule. Torture and murder were commonly implemented, but there was one group that wouldn't be intimidated, and that was the Iranian Revolution - after all, religious people are willing to die for causes, it's a good thing to do. So they did die for it, but in the end, they overthrew the Shah and they remain in power today. When the Middle East recognized a religious uprising could oust imperialist interference, it was copied everywhere. It is from the Iranian Revolution that "radical Islam" sprang. That is when it became a widespread movement, when people recognized religious movements could overthrow imperialist governments.

It's impossible to say for certain, but it's highly probable there would be no Hezbollah if there was no Iranian Revolution, and there probably would have been no Iranian Revolution without any Operation Ajax. You're never taught this. I said I didn't want to turn this into a history lesson, but here it is anyhow.

Sure is a good thing that the US intervened there, isn't it. Gee, why were 15 of the 19 hijackers on 9/11 from Saudi Arabia? I can tell you for certain that the Saudi citizens do not like their government. Like most Americans, they just deal with it, but there's a radical element that will do anything to remove it. Don't see that in the press, do you?

I have already pointed out that Saudi Arabia is a nutzo religious lunatic nation. It's the United States that put the Sa'ud Family in power and keeps them in power. They even have negotiated an agreement with them to use military force to keep them in power which has been exercised at least twice out in the open and who knows how many times covertly? The Saudi population don't respect them, and think they are hypocrites - which they are.

Why is the US doing this for the Sa'ud Family? Well, it goes back to Aramco. Same reason as Iran - oil. They are traitors to their nation as well. They keep their population in poverty, and the US gets first crack at their oil.

Ironically, it's you that is arguing the US should do this, I am arguing it should not. There should be no intervention. Let the Sa'ud Family fall. They are tyrants.

You well know all the injustices Islam commits against non-Muslims. Non-Muslims, women and gays are oppressed.


It's up to the people that live there to fix the problems. It's not up to anybody else and trust me, the United States has no interest in doing it anyhow. That's just empty rhetoric to quell the stupid dumb masses - you. It's also not up to the US to create these problems, but they do. I'm sure in the short term it makes sense, I'm absolutely certain that in business terms for corporations that influence these policies, it makes sense. However, it's unconstitutional, and immoral, and dangerous long term.

If you feel differently, grab a gun, get on a plane, and start fighting for their rights. Nobody is preventing you. Go ahead.

Intervention is such a wonderful success. I'm sure you'll be fabulous at it. Get to work.

reply

It's not like I support a lot of US intervention. This is something that all the powerful countries had done up until WWII. The US evolved the face of Imperialism. I agree with a lot of what you say about the mess-ups of the CIA in foreign countries. What happened with Iran was wrong, and in a lot of other countries in a lot of other places. There are threads of history here that it really doesn't matter what we think as citizens, no one controls and there is no democratic or republican involvement, because the question is the continuation of civilization as one country or another sees it.

It is more like fascism-lite, or hegemonic militarism. The US is the one superpower. It acts in the world.

> It's up to the people that live there to fix the problems.

If Americans cannot fix what is wrong with America with all our information and rights, how is the Islamic Middle East going to do it? The American South could not even fix its own problem with race and needed Federal soldiers to march in and occupy parts of it.

The thing about America is that it is pragmatic, it acts and makes mistakes. It often does not learn or learns slow from those mistakes, but things do change.

I believe Israel should exist and has a right to exist. The Muslim world has been playing the same games that you complain about the US only not as successfully in a smaller field. These countries do not attack each other because the US makes them. There is no country that behaves in a totally civilized manner.

The problem is that most of what I've heard from people like you who are critical of Israel is that Israel should not exist. That is a non-starter for me. Or they do it in tricky dishonest ways such as demanding the right of return. They preach hate to their people and forbid contact. There is a healthy opposition in Israel about the occupation and Palestinian policy ... there is none of that from the Islamic side.

You keep trying to force things to be equal, it just does not work for me. I do not think that Israel and the Palestinians are equal. I respect the life on both sides, but the Palestinian government cheapens Palestinian lives in the way it supports terrorists. If there was not historic cultural hate of Israel buy the Palestinians, there would be no Israeli occupation, so I think your calling it a terrorist state is incorrect.

I don't think you can speculate about Hezbollah and some of the other things you seem to throw out there so easily. I also think that when and if the *beep* Muslim problem is more or less solved that the time will come to start demanding change from Saudi Arabia. Right now the West needs them, so throwing them in my face like support the Saudis is not right.

You're wandering all over the place and not replying to my points. You're bringing up irrelevant things that already have answers.

As far as the country acting against the Constitution, we've done that since we were launched. Pragmatism, dealing with the imperfect at a very high level is a very messy thing and one thing the US should really argue honestly. That said not one of the Muslim countries even comes close to dealing honestly and fairly with their citizens.

reply

It is more like fascism-lite, or hegemonic militarism. The US is the one superpower. It acts in the world.


The US is not really a super power at this point. What makes it a super power? That it has a lot of nuclear weapons? It doesn't have any money. It has no industrial base. It's military is pathetic and overused.

If the United States was wiped off the planet tomorrow by aliens from outerspace, who would notice? The Chinese government would just ignore it - Chinese corporations would just continue shipping stuff to the US and dumping it in the sea, and the Chinese government would just send back US "dollar bills".

If Americans cannot fix what is wrong with America with all our information and rights, how is the Islamic Middle East going to do it?


They are actually more effective at doing it, if you haven't noticed. It's the US stepping in the way more often than not to prevent it.

Where's Hosni Mubarak now? Seriously - is he dead?

The thing about America is that it is pragmatic, it acts and makes mistakes.


Is it? What's pragmatic about removing Hussein, Gaddafi, overthrowing Iran's democracy, inciting and encouraging the Mujahideen? What about the overthrow of the Guatemalan democracy in 1954 for the United Fruit Company? Seriously - they did that.

You said earlier that the US is acting in a quasi fascist manner. It's not. It is fascist - that is the foreign policy of the United States and it's coming home to roost. These actions are done to benefit corporations and interest groups because they bribe our officials to do these actions.

And you don't really know if the US is "making mistakes" either. You don't know what their ultimate goal is. Was Iraq a mistake? How can you say without knowing why the US actually went to war there? They certainly didn't do it over weapons of mass destruction.

The problem is that most of what I've heard from people like you who are critical of Israel is that Israel should not exist.


I couldn't care less if Israel existed or didn't exist.

I'm arguing the US should not be involved with it.

What's the involvement of the United States with the Indonesian government, which was established on a platform of genocide in the 1960s? As far as I know, none. The United States simply wasn't involved.

Or they do it in tricky dishonest ways such as demanding the right of return.


The Palestinians that could move, did move a long time ago. What is left is a bunch of impoverished people, who have been denied any possibility of economic advancement whose lives have been disrupted for 3 generations now.

As Israel expands into the West Bank, what do you expect to happen with these people? I see 3 possible scenarios as the land shrinks.

1) Israel imposes outright apartheid, after completely taking over the West Bank.
2) Israel commits genocide on them, literally wiping them out, after completely taking over the West Bank.

What other alternatives are there? Israel won't allow a Palestinian state to ever exist. They could make one today, unilaterally. If Israel had any intention of ever doing this, why haven't they just done this in the last 65 years?

If there are no alternatives, and I see none, this is what people like you are supporting. One of those 2 options. That's my problem with people like you, and you are trying to make the United States complicit, arguing it's morally justifiable. You call people like me anti-Semitic and neoNazis and people like Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein self-hating Jews or "morons". People like you attempted to label Jimmy Carter anti-Semitic and overplayed that race card right there and then. It was fun to see that repeated again with Stephen Hawking. Way to legitimize the BDS movement...

People like you have no moral boundary, and no shame. People like you will resort to any possible dishonest lie you can to quell debate about this subject. Your side shamelessly slanders well meaning, good intentioned people. The leaders on your side are people like Alan Dershowitz who is utterly morally bankrupt, a complete piece of human excrement.

On your side is a distorted history and frequently outright lies. Where's all the video evidence from the Mavi Marmara - oh I'm sorry "the ship of hate"? Confiscated, probably destroyed at this point. I saw video that was obviously doctored which purported to be video of the event. I can show you the video step by step frame by frame so you can see it yourself, it's from the official IDF website. They don't even go through the minimal effort of being convincing anymore.

And while people like you employ such ugly tactics, you dare to claim it's people like me that act immorally. You wonder why people call you hypocrites and NeoNazis? The Nazis fabricated their history too, and slanders all their opposition at every opportunity. They were "liberating" Poland remember?


It's so trivial to get an education today if you want one. Why do you think Israel is losing support despite the "war on terror" in the United States?

For 65 years, there has been lie upon lie to justify what Israel is doing. Zionism is nothing more than the KKK for Jewish people. They have identical goals and they have a history demonstrating it. Israel is a group of hypocrites in the extreme. You'll probably be disingenuously aghast I'm comparing the two groups. Without mentioning race or religion, try to describe the goals of each movement. The only difference is their victims and methods to control them.

I know how this will eventually have to end - because your side is intractable, and insane. Zionists will never allow an equitable solution to be found. There's a billion justifiably angry Muslims though, and there's the US, and that's about it and there's hundreds of years of the future. People like you are ensuring a bloody violent end to Israel.

reply

> The US is not really a super power at this point.

You're just be silly and navel gazing. It's no wonder you do not really understand
the cognitive dissonance here, you are off in lala land and denying the neccessity
of being pragmatic in the world.

Not to mention your name calling of Zionism like the KKK, without any kind of
balance from the other side ... thousands of times larger than the Jews, Islam and
it's complete totalitarian form of oppression.

You talk about an equitable solution ... divide the land according to the population
in some way, Israel is the most densely packed country there because all it took in
land was enough to survive on. If there was a really equitable solution like a closer
to fair person per square mile solution, Israel would be much bigger than it is now.

You appear not to be able to deal with fact unless you can stretch them at your
convenience, for example by equating the Zionism to the KKK, that's the limit of
your rhetoric, you have really nothing to offer but propaganda, and no solutions
but what you demand, the destruction of Israel and murder of the Jews, and then
on to destroy Western Europe and the US. It's not going to happen and over time
future generations of Muslims will realize what a terrible disservice the corruption
of their faith has done them.

reply

The US is not really a super power at this point.


You're just be silly and navel gazing. It's no wonder you do not really understand the cognitive dissonance here,


I would say I'm experiencing it now.

Look, the US lost the war in Korea, lost the war in Vietnam, lost in Iraq II, and is losing in Afghanistan. That doesn't stop it from declaring victory.

This is the same nation that (supposedly) won WWII. The US didn't win WWII, the Russians did. What the US did, was pretty much stay out of WWII, and was lucky enough to have Robert Oppenheimer - who was stripped of his security clearance as a reward.

The US has plenty of nuclear weapons now, and any monkey can blow one up or make one - purifying the material needed to make one is the difficult part.

They lost the space race, but they managed to make it to the moon. There, victory. Finally.

you are off in lala land and denying the neccessity of being pragmatic in the world.


Nothing about US foreign policy is "pragmatic". The Chinese are pragmatic, Russia is as well.

Not to mention your name calling of Zionism like the KKK, without any kind of
balance from the other side ... thousands of times larger than the Jews,


Name calling? You explain to me what is different about a bunch of white protestants trying to setup a state run by, and for the benefit of white protestants and a bunch of Jewish people trying to setup a state run by, and for the benefit, of Jews. You explain it to me.

Oh, it's a "persecuted" group. so it's ok if they persecute. Is that it?

Islam and it's complete totalitarian form of oppression.


Yep, it is today, thanks to things like Operation Ajax and Zbigniew Brzezinski stirring up the Afganis. Once the USSR withdrew, the US did as well and they then supported the Mujahideen directly so that the Taleban could take hold, and totally ignored any democratic movements of which there were many. The US propped up, and probably installed Hussein. They certainly supported Hosni Mubarak. They're keeping the Sa'ud Family in power.

How freaking "pragmatic".

Sometimes I think the US intentionally creates problems in order to keep the world supporting the US dollar. In the Cold War, you could have taken two sides, and what industrialist wealthy group would want to take the side of the USSR? Better keep the US running...

Now there's this big push to promote the idea of "radical Islam" - you have to support us because "duh Mooslims" intend to create a Islamic Caliphate to take over the world!!! Is anybody stupid enough to believe this, other than Americans? That was an actual claim from Mitt Romney during his 2008 presidential bid. Want the video?

You talk about an equitable solution ... divide the land according to the population in some way,


That would require Israel to give up land. That's not going to happen. There are approximately 3.9 million Palestinians still living in the West Bank and Gaza. There are 7.8 million Israelis. The area of Israel is 20.770 square km, and the area of the West Bank and Gaza put together (not including settlements) is 6,120 square km.

Palestinians (3.9 / (3.9+7.8)) * (20,770 + 6,120) = 8,963 square km
Israelis (7.8 / (3.9+7.8) * (20,770 + 6,120) = 17,926 square km

You think it's going to happen?

There will never be an "equitable solution". Israel won't even allow a solution. Israel isn't interested in a solution. As long as they have the military might, they will just continue to expand.

Israel could unilaterally declare a Palestinian state today. They won't because they intend to take over everything. All this negotiation, all these peace talks, are simply stalling tactics, false hopes. It will never happen.

Israel is the most densely packed country there because all it took in land was enough to survive on.


Really.

.

Check my math, and verify it's correct. If all Israel did was to take just enough land to survive on, the Palestinians can't survive, because they are more densely packed.

Quit regurgitating BS to me. I can use a computer, I can look stuff up, and I can do 2nd grade math. Not only am I capable of doing this, I'm willing to do this. There - I'm in the 1 percentile of people that know anything about this stupid ongoing, never ending, conflict.

You appear not to be able to deal with fact unless you can stretch them at your
convenience,


Let's see you refute what I just said. I'll provide any links so you can do independent verification.

Lets see how you deal with the facts I just presented. My bet, is you won't even address them.

for example by equating the Zionism to the KKK, that's the limit of your rhetoric, you have really nothing to offer but propaganda,


You explain how they differ.

You are saying I'm just producing propaganda. I don't see any facts or figures coming from you. I don't see you demonstrating any knowledge of history here. I don't see you looking into population densities.

You know how big Gaza is? It's 360 square km. If you made that a box, it's 19 km on each side - or about 11 miles. I bike further than that a day. It has 1.7 million people living in that. That's 4,700 people per square km.

You know what the population density of NYC is? It's slightly more than twice that, and there are no high rises in Gaza.

Gee, what could the Palestinians possibly be upset over? I dunno Rocky!

Just remember, the Israelis are just innocent Jewish people trying to get along who wouldn't harm a fly, and this entire conflict it all the bad Mooslim's fault. Yes, they are the victims. They only receive 3 billion a dollars a year in US aid (that's 500 dollars per man woman and child), get US technology, have an illegal nuclear weapons facility in Dimona, and founded their country on horrific terrorist acts, have had two prime ministers who were known murderers and terrorists, committed the worst terrorist act of the 20th century, and murdered the UN peace negotiator in 1948, less than a year after the UN created Israel.

What a group of innocents. Yes, it makes moral sense to blindly support them...

And if you don't, you must be a Neo Nazi. That's the only explanation.

reply

> That doesn't stop it from declaring victory.

You should be smart enough to realize that one of the big reasons the US fights there wars is to continually have officers and soldiers with war experience, to collect data on wars and study it to develop and increase expertise.

We have the best logistics of any country now. We can get a wounded soldier out of the war zone in minutes and apply medical technology that will save their lives by inexperienced non-medical soldiers.

We keep improving our planes and ships, reacting to the enemy. We beat Iraq in days. Then we ran up against urban resistance. Then we went and developed software to look at cell phone calls, terrorist networks.

We have a whole science on things other countries have not ever experienced or thought about.

The Chinese are very smart, I respect the Chinese, and the Russians, but their societies are even bigger failures than ours. How can the Chinese get the buyin of the world as a leader when they are the most racist monoculture on the planet. They have invaded Tibet and ship thousands of Han Chinese in to settle the country. You want the whole world to be Chinese? I don't. I also do not the world to have to convert to islam because that is the only think Muslims can deal with - domination.

Islam is only starting to change today because of the attention it has gotten by virtue of the war. Before 911 people who went to Afghanistan talked until they were blue in the face about how music, dancing, reading, TV, education for women was illegal under the Taliban, and how the Taliban blew up those big carved statues of Buddha in the mountains ... or you conveniently don't remember that? We learned how people who try to question of leave Islam are treated. The US did not create the threat of radical Islam.

Look at the population density of Israel vs. that of any of the surrounding Muslim countries. If things were fair they would get as much land per person as any of the other countries. And by the way Palestinians could live anywhere in the area if they wanted to. The problem is that everywhere they have gone they bring death and destruction. In Jordan they tried to take over the country and kill the king.

You know Gaza is not all of Palestine, and I think it is ridiculous to have Palestine split into two regions ... get rid of Gaza and make the West Bank larger and more consolidated ... but I really think the Palestinians do not deserve a country. They have not proved they can manage themselves, and what is the point of a country that only exists to destroy Israel?

Nothing you say is straight or makes sense.


reply

You should be smart enough to realize that one of the big reasons the US fights there wars is to continually have officers and soldiers with war experience,


Oh, so the US starts wars to simply train soldiers. Hmmm.

The military is obsolete. It's a WWII carry over. Any actual war will be nuclear. The military of the United States has been reduced to heavy men doing the dirty work for corporations that have sufficient pull with the government.

We have the best logistics of any country now.


In order to spy on it's own civilian population. The US government is worried about a dollar collapse, and is preparing to take measures to remain in power, even though they are the ones that engineered it. You can't have a 16.7 trillion dollar debt that grows at the rate of 9.4% a year on average since 1971 with a tax revenue of under 15% of that support it.

This time around, there will be no Carter Doctrine or Reagan Corollary to create a world wide need for US debt. There is no possibility of raising interest rates to 18% like Paul Volker did for 2 quarters in 1980 to halt a dollar collapse because that interest rate is larger than tax revenue.

Then we went and developed software to look at cell phone calls, terrorist networks.


Oh my, you're naive.

Here's what I would do to send a message to another person on the other side of the planet without being detected. I would encrypt a message, upload it through an open wifi network, name it something innocuous like "Elysium Cam (RAD).avi" pad it out to 700 MB or so, and send it up through the TORR network on a movie pirate site. A few thousand people would download it, discover it's filled with garbage, deleted it, but my real target would receive the message, be able to decrypt it, and act upon it.

Nobody uses phones to communicate criminal activity.

If I was really paranoid, I'd bring an SD Card that is setup for encryption across the entire flash memory, have a bunch of photos on it, and the rest would be filled with what looks like random data, because it's encrypted. I would then "lose" the SD Card in a washroom, a hotel room, or some other place to have it picked up. It is smaller than my fingernail.

You just assume criminals are stupid. Only stupid criminals are stupid.


The Chinese are very smart, I respect the Chinese, and the Russians, but their societies are even bigger failures than ours.


Time will tell. Neither of them are subject to a collapse of their currency, both have huge industrial bases, and neither are viewed as bullies to the world. Iran is allied with both - which is why the US will never attack them.

How can the Chinese get the buyin of the world as a leader when they are the most racist monoculture on the planet.


Nobody cares about that.

They have invaded Tibet


Oh yeah, the 1990's cause du jour.

People care about products. Who is complaining about the United States invading Iraq over lies? Well, the Iraqis, and the very few Americans who recognize this is damaging to US long term interests.

Putin has said the United States needs to "finish the job" in Afghanistan - knowing full well that in the long term, it is damaging to US long term interests. That was a curse.

Before 911 people who went to Afghanistan talked until they were blue in the face about how music, dancing, reading, TV, education for women was illegal under the Taliban, and how the Taliban blew up those big carved statues of Buddha in the mountains ... or you conveniently don't remember that?


The US put the Taleban into power! This goes back to my opinion that the US shouldn't be involved with the affairs of other nations.

And by the way Palestinians could live anywhere in the area if they wanted to.


No. No they can't. The Palestinians (or the people that lived in that area if you prefer) have been discriminated against for centuries. The people that could have left, were the wealthy, and they are gone - long gone.

You honestly think people want to live there? Gee, there must be a huge immigration into the area then. Cite your data when you demonstrate there is.

and what is the point of a country that only exists to destroy Israel?


Yeah. That's their sole purpose... Right.

Hey, what is the purpose of a country whose only purpose is to drive every Palestinian out of Greater Israel? Well, I don't know, but it's called Israel. You don't seem to have a problem with that..

Nothing you say is straight or makes sense.


I notice you didn't bother to reply to a lot of what I wrote previously, especially when I showed you to be in error.

But it's me that isn't straight, and me that doesn't make sense.

You know what having principles is like? Or having ethics? I have ethics and principles, and I'm blind to ethnic or religious groups. What Israel is doing is wrong. You don't care, because they are Jewish, and an ethnic minority that suffered under the Nazi Regime.

You treat them differently because of their ethnic status. I don't. It's a consequence of having principles and ethics. It's a system of thinking in terms of morality. Do you know what morality is?

reply

Very good post, except I don't think you are right about "the Jew that has to be ashamed of himself and his success, and always engaging in a mea culpa."
Did you see the movie?

The Israelis can and did express remorse and bad feelings about blowing up innocent people, and talked about it as fairly as possible, the very people in the middle of it, and they conclude that it hurts their cause more than it helps. That is kind of where the movie stops, so they did not go further and say how they can build the trust they deemed necessary to build peace, nor did they address the facts that several of them mentioned that the Palestinians leadership does not seem to want peace, or a peace where Israel still exists.

The examples of they are damned if they do and damned if they don't, and meanwhile the Palestinians seem to play to a completely different audience, a captive totalitarian audience in Islamic countries that in many cases condemns or prosecutes/persecutes anyone who says there should be peace between the two sides. I recall the example of a small newspaper own in Bangladesh around the time of 911 who editorialized for peace and was put on trial for his life by the government. To me, that is worth the West fighting for, the problem is, how does the West or how does Israel fight intelligently and effectly against this kind of low tech ruthless totalitarianism. They have tried to be just as ruthless and the point of this movie I think was that it did not work, and now the question is, does anything work, and if now, what?

reply

It's not their reliance on oil, that argument refutes your statement. Since, an overwhelming amount of evidence has surfaced concerning the US's involvement in overthrowing and implementing political parties in these regions; specifically, parties that support their western ideals. The true devastation is religion, Islam is a younger monastic orders and is experiencing a phase of fundamentalism. There's simply no way to label all Muslims as barbarians and be taken seriously, the Arab spring has shown that the vast majority are seeking independence from oppression. Judaism and Catholicism are, certainly, not without similar historical critique. Quite obviously we will be forced to solve this problem at some point in our lifetime, it's an issue in which no one should be without doubt.

reply

----------------
>If somebody says something negative about the Israeli government, the next thing
> you can expect to see is somebody saying "well, those Muslims over there are worse".
> Almost without exception.

Let's say that is true ... what about it?
Are you saying just because it is predictable that it is not true, or does not
deserve analysis or to be disbelieved?

----------------

No bruce_129, he's obviously not saying that.

He's saying that you are highlighting certain relevent (and palatable) truths as a smokescreen to distract your and our attention from certain even more relevent (and unpalatable) truths.

Everything you say is valid and helps contextualise the debate - but it is nonetheless secondary and fails to detract from the core issues of Israeli responsibility and culpability for their own actions.

And I assume (for your sake) you already know that. But could be I'm wrong. So either:

A) You are contriving a well worn debating strategy to distract from the core argument. Or...

B) You're not being entirely honest with yourself.

My guess is option "A" but feel free to own up to option "B" and I'll apologise.


If only you could see what I have seen through your eyes.

reply

Coincidentally burningriver (above) uses exactly this tactic when he claims that...

The truth is that any other nation in Israel's circumstances would have reacted far more brutally and far more selfishly. And every other nation in Israel's circumstances has, especially and including Islamic nations.

This may or may not be true (and eitherway I agree that the worst excesses of many nominal "Islamic" states are beyond the pale and should be vilified).

But what's more worrying is that burningriver openly concedes that Israel has acted "brutally" and "selfishly" but then magics away all accountability for that behaviour on the basis that there are even worse perpatrators in the opposing camp.

That's a bit like claiming the nazi SS are somehow off the hook for massacring the nazi SA members on "the night of the long knives (1934)" because the latter were even "worse" behaved than they were.

True or false this conveniently side-steps the fundamental truth that the SS were still behaving like nazis and you don't want that kind of mentality at the helm of ANY nation - european, arab, israeli, or otherwise.


If only you could see what I have seen through your eyes.

reply

Well stated. There is something weird about what seems to be the forced acceptance of a cultural relativistic mindset that makes Islam equivalent to other moralities that is not there in reality. All legitimate religions have a philosophical universality about them - except Islam that is basically an expansionistic militant totalitarian system of hierarchical oppression. It enlists men by its oppression of women and dehumanization and incitement to violence and a violent state or mind ... many of the stories of Islam appeal to purient interests, like the 70 virgins or whatever it is. Adolescent fantasies because consciously Muslims are not meant to evolve beyond that point in their society, except at the top.

reply

When you use the term terrorism only to pertain to Israel, you impeach your own claims.

reply

Considering your massive lack of proof you get written off as tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy nut!

reply

Muslim on Muslim violence exceed anything the Israelis do.
Anyway, I disagree and do not think you have any facts or logic to
support your claims.

reply