MovieChat Forums > The Gatekeepers (2013) Discussion > Just saw it today, I'm thinking the poin...

Just saw it today, I'm thinking the point is that ...

posted 11 years ago by bruce-129
14 replies | jump to latest

The US and Israel has been waging their own war against barbarianism
in one way or another since the end of WWII.

The consequences of this have been bad for everyone and the planet,
but particularly the beliefs in Western citizens in Western civilization.
If we have to descend to the level of barbaric terrorists, or admit our
own forays into terrorism or worse yet the denial and abandoning of
our own core values and the brainwashing and totalitarianism we are
starting to foist on our own people in reaction to what we face ...

then what the hell are we doing?

This movie makes me think we need to change unilaterally, and not
stupidly as in unilaterally disarming, or

but we have to re-walk through how we got to where we are, and
what we discarded or distorted of our own values, who did it, why and
how, and to re-visit and re-think the world, and take into account
how we can deal with what in the worst case can be billions of
what can only be called from our point of view barbarian Islamic
radicals and though not specifically mentioned since this is from the
Israelis point of view, Chinese hegemony as well.

What good does it do us to become as bad or worse than the enemy
we fight, and is it fair to submerge everyone on the planet into war
and chaos, real, social or economic, - - - the model does not work.

This movie made me ask the question to myself, but there is hardly a
good answer. The answer needs to come from information and a lot
of good information and perspective is gained by watching this movie,
as tough and boring as much of it is.

For example, if I a pretty staunch supporter of Israel can be moved to
inflamed anger when they showed the bombing of houses in the Palestinian
territories to kill terrorist that instead killed civilians and children
sleeping in their beds - I find that a total outrage, as I also found the
way the US began the Iraqi war ... by bombing residential neighborhoods
in Bagdhad hoping to kill Saddam Hussein and his sons. What on Earth
were these people thinking, and why do they think they have to the
right to fly over people and gamble with their lives.

Let's assume perhaps even that the strategy was to radicalize everyone
who could be radicalized and force them out in the open in warfare and
kill them ... what kind of world view is that, how does that jibe with
Western values, and what are Western values aside from the clarity that
is forced on everyone when survival becomes the main concern.

In that situation is again blasphemy by any moral code that members of
any side's government or elite should be profiting, Blackwater, Republican
defense contractors and investors. This is a recipe for world disintegration,
and I think that is what is at the bottom of this movie, and well explained,
but in the context of Israel.

We cannot get out of the box to think, so we are all forced by our respective
governments to accept this dark evil hateful world that goes on and on,
when there may well be a way out of this that does not involve arms,
killing hating, and also does not involve surrender or giving into
barbarism, of which I class radical islam, or any other religion that takes
the rule and ownership of whole countries and peoples as it's right.

A very thoughtful movie, rather hard to watch, but worth it. Sadly there
is little history of background to much of this, so you have to pay close
attention to what is said, but at least this is real, and honest, and something
we hardly ever see in the movie theater ... which is yet another part of the
problem.

8/10

[–] nutsberryfarm 11 years ago

cool review. thx. looking fwd to watching it.

You stay classy, San Diego.

[–] jmbwithcats 11 years ago

Remarkable review and spot on.

Web www.jmberman.com
Fcbk https://www.facebook.com/catnipdream

[–] ckanelevy 11 years ago

I'm going to see it in a couple of days but I appreciate your review. I am also a staunch supported of Israel, but I'm most definitely NOT a supporter of the current Israeli government. What I do take some comfort in is that there are many Israelis who have a much more progressive view on Palestinian rights, the immorality of building settlements, at least attempting to solve disputes through patience and negotiation instead of a quick trigger finger, etc. If only the Labor party had lasted and Arafat didn't have to cow-tow to his extremists, this part of the world might have been settled by now with a stable and viable 2 state solution. The relationship between Israel and Jordan could have been the norm instead of the rare exception.

[–] nutsberryfarm 11 years ago

keen.

Why is Cloud 9 so amazing? What is wrong with Cloud 8?

[–] adam_jondo 11 years ago

I appreciate the OP's attempt at deeper analysis.

However he openly presumes that the arab insurgents are just "barbarians" and that the US and Israel are merely reacting to the unjustifiable threat they pose.

This is a complete whitewash of the events of 1948 that form the basis of the conflict.

Would like to hear more from "ckanelevy" and other members of the non-zionist israeli community as they clearly represent the best hope for the future.

But I would still put it them that the palestinian displacement of 1948 was a fundamental injustice for which the current state of Israel is still culpeable (by acquiescence) and on which the moral statute of limitations has yet to expire.

In short - Israel threw the first punch and that contextualises all the subsequent strands of the conflict.

If only you could see what I have seen through your eyes.

[–] bruce-129 11 years ago

> he openly presumes that the arab insurgents are just "barbarians"

I've been thinking about that comment ... and I would not say "just"
any people are more than just one aspect of themselves, and I do not
mean to dehumanize of derogate the Palestinians. Palestinians who
get out of this situation, like people who remove themselves from
dysfunctional families are much more than barbarians and I well
know that ... likewise I resent the implication that my thoughts on
this is shallow or dismissible.

When I say barbarians, I am talking about those who run the government,
like a gang that runs a neighborhood and keeps everyone in terror and
in line by terror. Anyone who says "our existence is to make your suffer"
is nothing but a barbarian in my eyes who cannot see past their own
egotistical hateful point of view.

We have it in our own Declaration of Independence, when in the course of
human events ... Jews had to declare independence from Muslims to fullfill
their own lives, and that should be expected, even demanded of any people,
but Palestinians are NOT DOING THAT.

They do not need to destroy Israel to do that, in fact they do not even need
to have their own state to do that - in my opinion - all Palestinians are
forced to act and give their lives in service to the greater "Islamist" good.
That is inhuman and barbarous.

[–] bruce-129 11 years ago

> In short - Israel threw the first punch

And you talk about looking for a deeper analysis? LOL

On a more serious note ... it is really impossible to reduce this down to
who threw the first punch. Jews needed freedom from Islamic domination
in the region, and a place to go after WWII globally so they created Israel.
Jews also purchased about half of the land in the area though the world-
wide Zionist movement to create a Jewish state.

After Israel declared statehood they were immediately attacked and then
subsequently by what can only be called barbarianism, the idea that
the Islamic religion must conquer lands and people for Allah.

Also subsequently, Jews were expelled from neighboring regions and
forced to go to Israel ... more Jews were expelled this way than Palestinians
than fled or were expelled from Israel.

What we see today is the PR version of the Palestinians ... spun in the most
ridiculous way ... i.e. that they are doing this to support democracy. This
is the latest Iranian claim. They just want democracy, that is, under the
condition that there is one state and Palestinians have the right of return
to it. Ha! This is just more war talk.

Islam cannot coexist with non-Islam - and purposefully refuses to do that
unless they are forced and the world cannot coexist with Islam, so they
will be forced. If you do not like it get the Islamics to be more tolerant of
the world and less superior, which they obviously are not.

[–] lightningcows 11 years ago

I would agree with much of what you wrote. Abraham Shalom probably best represents both sides of the coin - on the one hand, he refuses to dwell on the morality of the 300 bus incident, and still looks at it within purely national security lens. On the other, he does agree that Israel should continue talking to the opposition, including Hamas and the Islamic Jihad. He may have been the one (or it may have one of the others) who drew the comparison between the more unsavory Israeli actions regarding the Palestinians and the Nazi's treatment of the Poles and Czechs. One of the others, possibly Ami Ayalon, told the story of his conversation with a Palestinian acquaintance who revealed to him that "victory is to see you suffer" despite that the Palestinians were facing heavy losses. He concluded that his fear is that Israel would win all the battles, but ultimately lose the war.

[–] bootblack987 11 years ago

You only need to hit the return key when you start a new paragraph. Computers have a feature called "wrap-around text" that will automatically move you to a new line when it is necessary. It will be easier to read your posts if you let your computer do it's own thing.

[–] bruce-129 11 years ago

stfu*

[–] THOMASSU 10 years ago

I live in Sweden where we've embraced a lot of muslim refugees (mainly from Kosovo, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia and now Syria) in the last couple of decades. The one's from Iran seem to be the most civilized, since many of them fled the religious oppression of the regime. They are now worried about the numerous mosques being built, financed from radical countries on the Arab peninsula (Quatar, Saudi Arabia etc). Some of the new swedes are hard to integrate and are causing unrest in the society to put it mildly. Sweden was one of the most secular country on the planet before this (85% atheists or agnostics).

So how do we handle fanatical people who embraces death by martyrdom? This is not easy. How would we handle a million christian crusaders from the 13th century, or a million spanish inquisitors from the 17th century, traveling to our time. I think we'd try to educate them as best we could. What else can we do? We don't nuke our children when they misbehave, do we?

I wonder what Mr. Spock would say about the issue? It is kind of similar to the Federation's problem with the Klingon empire, isn't it?

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe..." - Roy Batty, Blade Runner

[–] bruce-129 10 years ago

I think the thing no society can do is nothing.
The idea that Western societies have to integrate people who mean to destroy
it, one way or the other, is absurd ... and ironically these are at the root ideas
that come out of Christianity - but in the secular tradition.
It would be one thing if all Muslims were the same, then one could say pretty
categorically - deport them all, under some excuse; as enemy combatants or
just as people who will not integrate or tolerate anyone else's traditions. But
not all Muslims are "barbarians" so speak and some, even many are very nice
productive wonderful people.
What I wonder is what are the forces in Western society that cause NOTHING to
be done? The same forces that argue or lobby for tolerance or "barbarism"
[ I don't know what else to call it ] benefit economically. It is as if there are
underlying corrupt force in Western society itself that wants to rebel and
overturn the moral base of that very society by using it against itself.
The bottom line is that these people were accepted and brought in to serve
economic interests, as low-cost labor for the most part as I understand it,
as Mexicans were in the US. Some can work out, but since it was and is
unregulated it can stress and break the system. The system's own corruption
brought this about.
I really do not know about Klingons, much as I like Star Trek the social
analogies don't really apply to reality that well, but could be? ;-)

[–] THOMASSU 10 years ago

Here in Sweden everybody that tries to question the massive immigration and point to the problems it causes gets labelled as a racist by the media and most political parties. There is a new party that have become Sweden's third largest that challenges the politically correct establishment. It wants to lower immigration to about 10% of what it is now and increase the foreign aid instead.

The Klingons culture is about as alien for me as the so called "honor culture" many of the immigrants adhere to. And I bet there were Klingons who sought refuge after Praxis exploded to Federation space. And I do think there would have been many culture clashes that followed.

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe..." - Roy Batty, Blade Runner

[–] bruce-129 10 years ago

> Here in Sweden everybody that tries to question the massive immigration and point to the problems it causes gets labelled as a racist by the media and most political parties.

Well, more or less the same in every Western country ... and my comment is - why is that? Where does that come from. By labeling everything as racist and not allowing a free discussion about it - even if it was racist, or I prefer the term racial, is it is somewhat ABOUT race, or religion - so what, does that mean a discussion cannot be had about it?

My thoughts are that this is a concerted program by the top level of our government to use racial means to subvert the democratic process - because in the modern world to the people at the top democracy is an idea that is dead, but whose image must be maintained to fool people in a sense.

I don't think any culture should have to destroy itself to achieve politically correct goals, and that is the discussion that should be had.

Being in Silicon Valley, CA, I know and have worked with Muslims, but I also know that there are some problems there. Many not specifically about Islam but more about deluging society for people who take a while to integrate into it, and if you throw too many in it is us that has to integrate to them. A side example is Asians, and how Asians in Silicon Valley distort corporate structure preferentially for other Asians, at a time when Americans/whites are winding that down. How is that supposed to work?

These are tough questions, but they should be talked about and they should not be ignored. There are things about every society that need to change, can be improved and should not be ignored ... but right now a fairly constant theme with Muslims is expansion, intolerance, and taking over - even when they are in other people's cultures.

I am a long time Star Trek fan, saw the first broadcast of the first episode as a kid, but in this context I just prefer to leave it out because I don't think it's helpful.