MovieChat Forums > Mandela: Long Walk to Freedom (2013) Discussion > the ignorance of some people

the ignorance of some people

posted 10 years ago by hutchingsgregory
45 replies | jump to latest

It saddens me to see how ignorant some people are of masons, calling the great man a terrorist

[–] larosat 10 years ago

That's because he was idiot. Check facts. He was responsible for bombs that killed innocent women and children.

I believe we call that "collateral damage" in my country, the United States.

that is not collateral damage

collateral damage would be going to war with a nation and fighting and accidentally killing an innocent person who gets in the way of your round

what he did was organize deliberate attacks on civilians

[–] holdek01 10 years ago

No, he did not. He organized bombings of government facilities, at night, in order to destroy property and minimize casualties.

[–] Royalcourtier 10 years ago

Mandela was sentenced to a term of imprisonment for participation in 156 acts of terror. He confessed. He was offered release on many occasions, on the sole condition that he renounce terrorism. He refused. Those who lionise him for his 27 years in prison (self-inflicted) or for harbouring no hatred as a result of his imprisonment (which was deserved) do not understand history, or more likely are simply ignorant.

[–] holdek01 10 years ago

It's especially grating when people who write misinformation upbraid others about "ignorance."

Mandela was convicted of conspiring to commit sabotage and violently overthrow the government.

He confessed that he had participated in sabotage but denied planning to overthrow the government.

(At the time he was already serving a five year prison sentence for inciting a labor strike and leaving the country without a pass.)

One of the conditions for his release from prison (which was not offered until 24 years into his sentence) was that he abandon calls for democracy, which he naturally refused.

[–] Prismark10 10 years ago

Tell me how should black people in South Africa get equal rights?

Its that man again!!

[–] actionmanrandell 10 years ago

build up arms(in the sense of a militia) then go to direct war with apartheid. but what he did was Plan direct attacks against non combatants(civilians) that is the very definition of terrorism

[–] p-stepien 10 years ago

That's because he was idiot. Check facts. He was responsible for bombs that killed innocent women and children.

I suggest you do. Because he wasn't responsible for any bombs that killed women and children. At best he can be guilty by appropriation, as he was in prison with little to no contact with the outside world when the attacks in question took place.

Mandela attacked only military and strategic facilities in the dead of night, avoiding human loss of life. I believe it is recorded he is responsible the one night watch guard being injured during his 65 bombings.

[–] suemarshall7130 10 years ago

Where the hell are you getting your facts from? Are you making them up as you go? I suggest you view the 10 pages on ANC own website as to the bombings and sabotage attacks MK military wing of ANC carried out! Many people read this site and you are giving out horribly gross miss information!

Now go and read this site to gain some knowledge please. It ANC own freakin site!

http://www.anc.org.za/show.php?id=2651

Here's another of their most active sites planning a communist revolution of South Africa's economy. Of course if you are afliated and ingreement with such comunistic activities, actions and planning, you should rival in what you find. Maybe even sign up to be a member! UGH... When SA lands up like SUDAN, I'd like to see what media has to say then!

http://www.ycl.org.za/pubs/voice/2013/issue4.pdf Full blown Red Communists regime organized meetings, planning a Leninst Revolution of the South African Nation!

Oh and what about this one, the on going genocide of whites in SOuth Africa?? I guess that hogwash too? I THINK NOT !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylKgntJcP4s

[–] p-stepien 10 years ago

Where the hell are you getting your facts from?

From published research papers I actually read and understand.

I suggest you view the 10 pages on ANC own website as to the bombings and sabotage attacks MK military wing of ANC carried out! Many people read this site and you are giving out horribly gross miss information!

As you can see on the same website you posted ANC's military wing only initiated terrorist attacks after the Soweto uprising. No one denies this. Attempting to pin it on Mandela who was not an ANC leader at the time and a prisoner incarcerated with almost no contact with the outside world is ludicrous.

Oh and what about this one, the on going genocide of whites in SOuth Africa?? I guess that hogwash too? I THINK NOT !!

I think YES! Hogwash. White murders account for 2% of all murders, whilst white population is 9%. This in itself contradicts any claim of 'white genocide'.

Please read:
http://www.africacheck.org/reports/are-white-afrikaners-really-being-k illed-like-flies/

“Whites are far less likely to be murdered than their black or coloured counterparts,” Lizette Lancaster, who manages the Institute for Security Studies crime and justice hub, told Africa Check. This is supported by an analysis of a national sample of 1378 murder dockets conducted by police in 2009. In 86.9% of the cases, the victims were Africans. Whites accounted for 1.8% of the cases (although whites make up 8.85% of the population).

[–] Archeoterrex 10 years ago

That's because he was idiot. Check facts. He was responsible for bombs that killed innocent women and children.

Too bad you weren't caught in those explosions.

[–] evegalewitz 9 years ago

Mandela was one of the great leaders of the 20th century and his moral courage and guidance helped bring down the racist white supremacist Boer Afrikaners regime down and made free the native African people from their suppressors.

Is South Africa now free from all its ills? No. It will probably take a long time to recover and to come to a balance after Soweto, Sharpeville, after years of carrying passbooks in your own country and being treated as subservient to the White Rulers. But it is not the bloodbath that many other nations became, after horrific revolutions and that is thanks in no small part to Mandela. He learned forgiveness in his 28 years in their prisons. This is something the world has yet to learn and if we would learn this we would be better and be at peace.

[–] manlistowel 7 years ago

Mandela deserved life in prison for what he did

[–] hutchingsgregory 10 years ago

I'm prettty sure I know my own countries history. Yes he was involved in a few incidents that were targeted at government buildings, not people, but he admitted that he wasn't a saint, and saved millions of lives from oppression. YOU learn your facts

[–] latez1 10 years ago

I'm pretty sure you don't. Or at least you think you do. History from the perspective of the victim or the bleeding heart couldn't possible be colored right?

You can take any number of perspectives on Mandela as a human being. What we do know is that he was neither a Saint or an out right Demon. Depending on your perspective most people pick a category to place him in.

The known facts are that he cooperated with known Communist groups to incite and perpetuate violence in South Africa. Were his causes just? were they without reason? That's for history to judge, not me. The fact that he took hundreds and possibly thousands of civilian lives is also without question. Again - which perspective one takes on those lives is solely up to them.

During the period that Mandela was locked away - South Africa was approaching 1st world status. Thriving economy (admittedly based on much of the countries rich natural resources), thriving and rich tourism industry. Hell they nearly built an atom bomb.

Since Mandela's release and saint hood at the hands of the left - the country has gone down an ever deeper spiral. Murders are up, Rape is up, Tourism is at an all time low. Natural resources have mostly been plundered and those area's that aren't completely void of resources are being strip mined by international investment from countries such as China.

Sure I guess you can call that an improvement just as much as you can call murder a holy act as long as its for the right cause...

Sure apartheid is dead - but are the people better off for it? Could there have been another approach to take that didn't involve turning South Africa into the open sewer it currently is?

I'm glad you you know the history of your own country - do you like it better this way? How bitter is the taste of freedom when you can't go out at night for fear of rape?

Then again - no one expected the left to ever tell the truth anyway.

[–] p-stepien 10 years ago

The fact that he took hundreds and possibly thousands of civilian lives is also without question. Again - which perspective one takes on those lives is solely up to them.

When? During the bombing of empty buildings?
And the entire civilian loss of life attributed to ANC is 100 people. ALL OF THEM after Mandela was incarcerated and he had no influence on ANC policies. Guilty by association?

Thriving economy (admittedly based on much of the countries rich natural resources), thriving and rich tourism industry.

Thriving economy you say? Facts say that South African per capita declined over 10% in the 1980s. During 1980-1993 the economy was stagnant. By 1993 the average wealth in South Africa was lower than in 1970. Since 1994 the economy is growing at a steady rate of over 3% per annum and wealth has actually increased.

Murders are up

Murder is down from 26000 in 1993 (you know... during apartheid?) to 16000 in 2013.

Rape is up

Rape is now on the up. Unfortunately its unmoving. This is a major problem.

Tourism is at an all time low.

Liar, liar - pants on fire. Absolute hogwash. South African tourism is booming at over 7% per year since 1994. There were 1 mln visitors annually in 1990, there are some 12 mln visitors now. The amount of money in tourism has quadrupled. This one is total bull and you know it.

Natural resources have mostly been plundered and those area's that aren't completely void of resources are being strip mined by international investment from countries such as China.

What the? You obviously have no idea about the South African economy and who holds all the cards...

Typical - the right lying through their teeth as usual.

[–] fitley 10 years ago

While I agree that life in South Africa has indeed improved in many ways since the end of Apartheid, there are some things that worsened - without any doubts.

Thriving economy you say? Facts say that South African per capita declined over 10% in the 1980s. During 1980-1993 the economy was stagnant. By 1993 the average wealth in South Africa was lower than in 1970. Since 1994 the economy is growing at a steady rate of over 3% per annum and wealth has actually increased.

The South African economy was indeed one of the strongest during Apartheid, but that is obvious. Access to cheap labour will do wonders for any economy. The reason it deteriorated was because of the international sanctions placed on it. Not because the government at the time (with all of its many sins) were incapable of running it. The same cannot be said of the current government. However, even the most staunchly right wing nut in South Africa will agree that Trevor Manuel was an excellent minister of Financial Affairs. The economy could have been much worse and he certainly made sure to nurture it as much as possible.

Finally, although the economy has been growing since 1994, so too has inflation. The economy is much bigger since 1994, but people aren't really richer because of it. In fact, adjusting for inflation shows that the economy is about the same size as before. The problem is when you have to consider that the population has grown by millions since 1994, which means that per capita South Africans are poorer than 1994. Finally, the cost of living has also increased at an alarming rate. So economically speaking, the poor in South Africa are in an even worse situation than before.

Murder is down from 26000 in 1993 (you know... during apartheid?) to 16000 in 2013.

You are not painting an accurate picture if you compare crime figures with the 1990-1994 period. In those few years, twice as many people were killed than the rest of the entire Apartheid period. And most of these were internecine fighting amongst the black factions - politically motivated and not "normal" crime.

Comparing today's murder rate with such a turbulent time, is not going to leave you with a valid conclusion. Crime before the 90's were much lower. But again, this too is obvious. South Africa was a police state where people's movement was strictly controlled. Obviously crime would have been lower.

The failing of today's government, when it comes to crime, is the court system. Far too many cases never even make it to court and far too many prisoners receive presidential pardons because the prisons are overcrowded. Criminals have learnt that they can literally get away with murder in South Africa.

But overall, I would say that life has improved for most South Africans - including white South Africans.

[–] p-stepien 10 years ago

The South African economy was indeed one of the strongest during Apartheid, but that is obvious. Access to cheap labour will do wonders for any economy. The reason it deteriorated was because of the international sanctions placed on it. Not because the government at the time (with all of its many sins) were incapable of running it.

Partly true. There was also a significant drop in prices on natural resources during that period. Several other issues also came into play (like structural issues in government overemployment or lack of growth in non-white areas). But those two would be the most significant.

Fact is however that during 1980-1994 South Africa was a facade of white wealth with a crumbling economy in the background.

Finally, although the economy has been growing since 1994, so too has inflation.

GDP growth takes into account inflation. I do agree that the methods of calculating inflation are iffy worldwide, but South Africa is no different.

The problem is when you have to consider that the population has grown by millions since 1994, which means that per capita South Africans are poorer than 1994.

Not true:
GDP per capita has grown since 1994 every year save for 1998 and 2009. The growth is definitely too slow (South Africa needs 3+%), but the average GDP growth per capita since 1994 is 1,4%.

You are not painting an accurate picture if you compare crime figures with the 1990-1994 period. In those few years, twice as many people were killed than the rest of the entire Apartheid period. And most of these were internecine fighting amongst the black factions - politically motivated and not "normal" crime.

I'll repost:
South Africa's population was on the increase. According to official stats the murder ratio in 2011/2012 stood at 30,9 per 100,000. Meanwhile in 1970 the same murder ratio was 32,1 per 100,000!!!

So actually according to official crime stats the murder rate in modern day South Africa is lower than in the height of apartheid! And that despite significant underreporting of black-area murders.

Also: The highest murder rate on record was 62,5 per 100,000, so murder rates are actually down ca 50%.

An SA Crime Quarterly research paper also noted that the period from 1994-2012 is the first time since 1937 when the homicide rates in South Africa were actually decreasing.

cheers

[–] fitley 10 years ago

May I ask where you get your information from? Most crime statistics in South Africa aren't even published - at least not after the government has had its way with it.

Also, everywhere in SA people have noticed an increase in crime - and not just a little bit. Whether in a fancy gated community or in a township, people will say the same thing. I'm sorry, but I doubt those crime stats are correct.

In my hometown we only ever had one murder throughout the 60's to end of the 90's. Since 2000 we have had more than a hundred. And my hometown only has 10 000 people. And we are not an exception to the rule or anything. And I'm not even going to mention burglary, assault and rape.

[–] p-stepien 10 years ago

Murder statistics are easily available and one of the most reliable stats. Go to Stats SA or the SAPS website. The stats for the apartheid are are accessible in library archives. I took the pre-1994 stats from a right-wing publication BTW (talk about an own-goal):
http://www.frontline.org.za/Files/PDF/murder_southafrica%20%285%29.pdf

He took his data from:
CSS: Statistics of Offence annual reports

I don't deal in perceptions. I deal with facts.

I don't know what your hometown is, but there was little or no crime in white areas pre-apartheid era. The crime was congested in black areas.

[–] fitley 10 years ago

That is the problem with SAPS stats. They are known to be tweaked. They especially love to never provide all the numbers so that others may judge for themselves. For example, they might only release percentages, but never indicating how they got to them. They have been criticised for this by many people - even in the government.

I would not trust any "fact" from a right-wing website. The problem with obtaining pre-1994 stats, is that they are not easily reliable - certainly not with people who have ulterior motives.

Stating that you only deal in facts and then quoting a right-wing website, is a contradiction in terms.

I don't know what your hometown is, but there was little or no crime in white areas pre-apartheid era. The crime was congested in black areas.

Exactly, there was little or no crime in most white areas - and in most non-white areas too. The next time you meet any non-white South Africans, you are welcome to ask them how crime compares to pre- and post-Apartheid times. The unfortuante truth is that violent crime has escalated.

[–] p-stepien 10 years ago

That is the problem with SAPS stats. They are known to be tweaked. They especially love to never provide all the numbers so that others may judge for themselves. For example, they might only release percentages, but never indicating how they got to them. They have been criticised for this by many people - even in the government.

Nobody serious questions the SAPS stats regarding: a) murders and b) car theft crimes (due to insurance claims). All that you claim above is pure conjecture.

I would not trust any "fact" from a right-wing website. The problem with obtaining pre-1994 stats, is that they are not easily reliable - certainly not with people who have ulterior motives.

A right wing website should attempt to minimize the murder rate, not increase it.
Besides: I gave the source of the pre-1994 crime stats. I double checked them just in case and yes: They are correct.

and in most non-white areas too. The next time you meet any non-white South Africans, you are welcome to ask them how crime compares to pre- and post-Apartheid times.

I will not argue perceptions. I lived in the region for over 15 years, so I have a pretty good idea of the reality on the ground.

I give you facts. You offer me perceptions in return. There is no ground for consensus.

[–] fitley 10 years ago

Nobody serious questions the SAPS stats regarding: a) murders and b) car theft crimes (due to insurance claims). All that you claim above is pure conjecture.

It is nto conjecture. Just google any SOuth African website and you can see how all the various opposition parties keep questioning and criticising the government. Not a month goes by in this country that people aren't voicing their disapproval with the police force. I would go so far to say that the police are more disliked than politicians. I like how you just call this conjecture.

A right wing website should attempt to minimize the murder rate, not increase it.
Besides: I gave the source of the pre-1994 crime stats. I double checked them just in case and yes: They are correct.

Should? So you expect them to do something. And if they didn't? Where is your facts that they did indeed attmpt to minimise the stats? You can't just assume they did. You are operating under perception now. I would not look at their site at all, to begin with.
You double-checked? Against which source? If they are wrong, they are wrong, no matter how many times you look at them.

I will not argue perceptions. I lived in the region for over 15 years, so I have a pretty good idea of the reality on the ground.

So when my neighbour was raped and her husband killed with an axe, it was just perception, not a fact? More than a hundred murders in my hometown is mere perception, not fact? Well, aren't you the apologist?

You claimed to have lived in the region for 15 years? What region? SA is huge? And if you have lived here for that long and claim to have a pretty good idea of "reality on the ground", isn't that just your perception, not fact? And where did you live? In neighbourhoods with gated communities? Finally, if you come from a country with a lot of crime, you might not notice how rampant crime in South Africa really is.

You honestly seem to be too much of an apologist as you are very much in denial of what is happening in SA. The people in this country are subject to violent crime and you merely try to paint a picture of things getting better. Pretending they are getting better will not save lives.

The only people who have the complete facts, are the government, and they are not sharing all their information completely.

I give you facts. You offer me perceptions in return. There is no ground for consensus.

No, there is no consensus. Until the government releases proper stats for the 90's, will never really be able to. Until such time, I have to see more and more neighbours putting up electrified fences, installing panic buttons and hiring security guards - where ten years ago none of that was necessary.

[–] p-stepien 10 years ago

It is nto conjecture. Just google any SOuth African website and you can see how all the various opposition parties keep questioning and criticising the government. Not a month goes by in this country that people aren't voicing their disapproval with the police force. I would go so far to say that the police are more disliked than politicians. I like how you just call this conjecture.

Conjecture is questioning the statistics by the SAPS. I won't delve into perceptions and political haggling. Crime is too high, sure. I'm just pointing out that its a myth that crime spiked post-apartheid.

You double-checked? Against which source? If they are wrong, they are wrong, no matter how many times you look at them.

Where did I correlate the data? In the Central Statistical Service reports. Now known as STATSSA.

So when my neighbour was raped and her husband killed with an axe, it was just perception, not a fact? More than a hundred murders in my hometown is mere perception, not fact? Well, aren't you the apologist?

I will not discuss such issues on a level of public perception. I can discuss them based on available stats. Telling a singular horror story proves terrible things happen, but do not say anything on a national level.

You claimed to have lived in the region for 15 years? What region? SA is huge?

Zambia, Zimbabwe, South Africa. Currently reside in Poland.
I was burglared on average once every 2 years in Zambia. Never had anything bad happen to me in South Africa. But that doesn't say anything. Just my experience as an individual.

You honestly seem to be too much of an apologist as you are very much in denial of what is happening in SA. The people in this country are subject to violent crime and you merely try to paint a picture of things getting better. Pretending they are getting better will not save lives.

Pretending things are getting worse is just blatant lying.

No, there is no consensus. Until the government releases proper stats for the 90's, will never really be able to. Until such time, I have to see more and more neighbours putting up electrified fences, installing panic buttons and hiring security guards - where ten years ago none of that was necessary.

Again - perceptions and horror mongering. I will not enter into an emotional non-factual conversation because its pointless and non-constructive. As long as your entire argument is "But I know better, because my neighbors are building electric fences", then we have no grounds for discussion.

Murder rates and crime rates are unacceptably high. Police force is largely incompetent. But pinning the entire blame on the post-apartheid government is pretty baseless.

BTW: I have friends in the townships like Khayelitsha and they told me horror stories about life in the area in the 80s.

[–] fitley 10 years ago

I'm just pointing out that its a myth that crime spiked post-apartheid.

Yes, and you prove this by quoting so-called facts from the SAPS/government. And if they are lying? If people/ insurance companies/ academic institutions etc. realise that something doesn't correlate with the government's stats, then they can't question or criticise it, for fear of being guilty of conjecture?

If you look at how blatantly corrupt the government is, how can you not doubt them? How can you just accept what they are saying? Living in South Africa, it is obvious that your daily life has increasing dangers. Any intelligent person can see it happening. But questioning the government's stats is conjecture?

Telling a singular horror story proves terrible things happen, but do not say anything on a national level.

And yet it is happening all over the country. And increasingly so. Only a small number of horrible murders even make international news. Locally it has become the norm.

Pretending things are getting worse is just blatant lying.

Wow, pretending? Like I said, in my hometown we have had more than a hundred murders. People being raped left and right. Burglaries happening almost every night. And yet 15 years ago none of this happened (to either white or non-white people). People would have been utterly shocked, now it has become the order of the day. But is good to know that it is just pretense. I'll make an announcement to town that we were all just imagining things. And so were the next town's inhabitants...and the next...

I will not enter into an emotional non-factual conversation because its pointless and non-constructive. As long as your entire argument is "But I know better, because my neighbors are building electric fences", then we have no grounds for discussion.

How mature of you. You are incapable of explaining and spinning the facts to fit your narrative and so you just call me emotional. Anyone with eyes in SA can see things getting worse. But as long as the "stats" say otherwise, we can just relax, it is just emotional conjecture and pretense on our behalves. What a relief, it's good to know... thank you very much. I will sleep better tonight.

[–] p-stepien 10 years ago

Yes, and you prove this by quoting so-called facts from the SAPS/government. And if they are lying? If people/ insurance companies/ academic institutions etc. realise that something doesn't correlate with the government's stats, then they can't question or criticise it, for fear of being guilty of conjecture?

Acadeic institutions and insurance companies actually agree. Insurance companies confirm SAPS stats on car robberies. And one stat that is hard to cheat is murder rates. No one in academic institutions really doubts them.

It purely your fabricated story that someone serious actually does.

You are incapable of explaining and spinning the facts to fit your narrative and so you just call me emotional.

But... the facts do fit my narrative. They don't fit yours. Your the one spinning the facts, not me.

[–] fitley 10 years ago

Which academic institutions would that be? You know what, leave it. I'm tired of arguing with you. You are right. It is pointless. We just do not agree on things.

... your fabricated story...

Fabricated? What a slap in the face for the people in my hometown who were brutally murdered and raped.

Your the one spinning the facts, not me.

While you have your opinion thousands of miles away from the reality of SA, I have mine.

Merry christmas!

[–] p-stepien 10 years ago

Fabricated? What a slap in the face for the people in my hometown who were brutally murdered and raped.

I understand this is an emotional and heavy issue for you. But I never said you fabricated the fact that people were murdered or raped in your home town. Just the claim that murder stats in post-SA are bogus.

[–] p-stepien 10 years ago

Please see for example the following research papers:
Schonteich and Louw (2001), Winslow (2002) and Shaw (1997). Source: Institute for Security Studies.

[–] fitley 10 years ago

I'm confused. The paper authored by Schönteich & Louw (2001) proves my point, and not yours.

It states that an increase in the number of recorded crimes, was greater in 1999 than in any previous year and violent crimes increased at a greater rate than any other crime. Also, the crime rates continued to steadily increase during 2000. It also states how police tweak crime figures in order to make some neighbourhoods appear safer.

[–] p-stepien 10 years ago

The papers you asked for were regarding confirmation that academics do not question the official murder statistics, but confirm them with minor notes. Total violent crime rates in South Africa rose up until ca 2000 and have been on the decrease since then (not all crimes, as rape is still on a worrisome high), although the murder rate has been on the decrease since 1994.

To recap: I noted that the current murder ratio in South Africa is lower than it was in 1970. You said the stats are crap. I said that no-one serious questions the validity of two stats: murder rates and car theft. You said that academics question this. I showed you a couple papers by academics to prove that they don't.

Now... I proved I'm right and you change the subject. Sure. I can comment on violent crimes:

-------

Pre-apartheid violent crimes are hard to come by and are severely faulty due to lack of reporting from township areas and the amount of political violence at the time. Undoubtedly it has skyrocketed in non-black areas.

The most easily checked stats can be found here for the period of 2004-2013 - as mentioned violent crime rates generally spike in 2001 and have been on the decrease since then:
http://www.crimestatssa.com/national.php
Total crimes 2004-2013: 17% drop

Crimes in decrease (amongst others):
Murder 2004-2013: 18% drop
Murder + attempted murder 2004-2013: 35% drop
Aggravated assault 2004-2013: 29% drop
Common assault 2004-2013: 39% drop
Common robbery 2004-2013: 44% drop
Car theft 2004-2013: 34% drop
Residential house burglaries: 13% drop

Crimes that are on the up:
House burglaries at non-residential locations - 14% increase
White collar crime - 60% increase
Drug related crime - 329% increase
Driving under influence - 185% increase
(the last two would suggest the police attempting to increase conviction rate stats through catching drunken drivers and petty drug dealers).

No change:
Rape

The non-murder and non-insurance connected stats (house burglaries, car theft) are however debatable due to the level of underreporting, which could increase if there is a distrust towards police (as suggested by the fact that there is less common robbery reported than aggravated robbery). One thing of note: the more violent the crime (with the exception of rape) the higher credibility of the stat.

A look into the stats shows that although house burglaries are on the decrease the brutality of them has actually increased (as more of them are treated as aggravated burglaries).

[–] p-stepien 10 years ago

Just to add: It is a proven fact that public perception of crime is out of sync with reality. With such high levels of crime in South Africa this is no different. The persistence of crime overpowers the drop in crime. It would have to drop drastically for public to start noticing.

South Africa has a culture of violence that was bred by apartheid and until the social disparity persists success in fighting crime will be limited.

[–] fitley 10 years ago

Just to add: It is a proven fact that public perception of crime is out of sync with reality. With such high levels of crime in South Africa this is no different. The persistence of crime overpowers the drop in crime. It would have to drop drastically for public to start noticing.

I agree. But like you mentioned, murder and other serious crimes are not so easily hidden. You support your statement with facts obtained from government sites and publications and I refute them based on my perception of crime and the fact that the SA government is not trusted by anyone. Even with murder stats. They may state that murder has decreased since ca 2001, but it definitely does not seem like it. Burglary, rape and murder where I live has increased drastically - no matter what the "official stats" say. And they are not just mere perceptions on our behalf - it is the reality we find ourselves in.

Never before have we faced rape and brutal murders - and today we do. In my reality it just doesn't compare with the stats. One murder between the 60's and the 90's and now more than a hundred. We had 17 this year (a population of 10 000 people). And I'm not even mentioning the rape and assualt.

I mentioned the stats you cited and papers to friends and family I met and everyone scoffed at the idea of relying on government info. That is the reality we find ourselves in at the current moment - a government that will do absolutely anything to come across as trustworthy and competent, when they are most certainly not. Our local TV networks aren't even allowed to say anything negative about them anymore. And with the Info Bill proposed by the ANC, we won't even be allowed access to info unless they deem it necessary.

The ANC is no longer the party it was under Mandela and other great figures. We simply do not trust them one bit.

South Africa has a culture of violence that was bred by apartheid and until the social disparity persists success in fighting crime will be limited.

I wouldn't say "bred", but rather exacerbated. We have always had violent interactions between most groups - long before Apartheid. And I doubt the current ANC will ever do anything to really solve any social disparity.

[–] holdek01 10 years ago

based on my perception

it definitely does not seem like it.

In my reality

friends and family I met and everyone scoffed

This is why almost none of what you are posting is helpful.

[–] fitley 10 years ago

This is why almost none of what you are posting is helpful.

Yes, I am aware of that. And that is my whole point and frustration. Everyone here can see things getting worse, but everyday we are fed stats, from a very corrupt government, that things are actually getting better. And people not living in South Africa only have those stats to go by.

Are we that paranoid that we are hallucinating all these rapes, violent assaults and murders, or are they really happening? And if they are, then why aren't they reflected in the stats?

And the point of my argument has got nothing to do with disliking Mandela. If anything, it is lamenting the fact that he isn't here to help with this problem.

I personally know 8 people in my life that have been murdered. All in the past ten years. My parents and the older generations never knew anyone who was killed (except my mom who knew of someone).

Life in South Africa has improved for everyone - except when it comes to crime. That remains the main problem threatening people. Do people really think our corrupt government wouldn't do something to hide that?

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] suemarshall7130 10 years ago

WOW... brilliantly said! 1 million thumbs up!!

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] suemarshall7130 10 years ago

Murder is MURDER! Since when does one murder for a good cause? Are you insane or what?

[–] p-stepien 10 years ago

Trouble is - he didn't murder / kill anyone.

And killing someone as part of armed conflict is something else than a simple case of murder.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] p-stepien 10 years ago

Murder isnt murder :L me walking down the street and killing someone for fun or because hes in my way is a lot different to me killing people to help equality to my race.

I don't feel like heading into a discussion into semantics, but it has nothing to do with equality of race, but war has different logic. Killing a civilian is still murder by any definition, but killing a soldier of an opposing side legally is not murder. And in apartheid we're talking about armed resistance vs government forces.

And once again (just in case): Mandela never killed anyone.

[–] 10 years ago

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[–] Milkdoesabodygood 10 years ago

All this talk of rape culture raises another disturbing point, and that's the notion that sex, unless under the perfect circumstances, is made to seem like an entirely vile and criminal act to a woman. Bad sex does not equal rape. A woman having sex with a guy that she isn't particularly enjoying, but maybe agrees to have it anyway because she likes him and doesn't want to lose him is in no way rape culture.
IMDB rulers and moderators as of late, sold out and became like City data, Worthless bureaucrats.